"I think 4 Cats and a Cannon (upgraded Cat, if we can afford this) along with 3 CR2 Grens and a CBT1/Medic Gren (which can be built last, after we begin the war even). I think we will need to have some Cho-Ko-Nu's on hand to clean up the Cats, but we have some already. Then we should be ready to roll." Once we are in a position to free our MPs (or will have a market or Globe completed by the time HE is available) and defend a pillaging attack by Wash, let's fight. The American war may be longer than desirable, but waiting delays building the HE, which greatly speeds unit production.
SGOTM 07 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
ShannonCT
Deity
We can build maces, pikes, and chokos after Chem until we get Rifling. I'm not convinced of the usefulness of CR promotions on grens though. If we are doing most of our fighting with cannons/artillery, the grens will be fighting wounded units. Combat promotions should do just as well against wounded units as CR promotions, and Combat promotions are good on defense too. So if we don't have enough money to upgrade new macemen, we can build grens.
Including the ivory and whales that we could get, we'd have 6 more happiness.
Frederiksberg
Deity
Cactus Pete said:
I find this a little too conservative. First of all I think Washington will be busy defending not attacking when we (and Asoka) declares war. Secondly we should be able to seal off the pass between Beijing and Washington by putting our upgraded (to chok or gren) guerrilla 2 archer on the silver hill. And NY will be under attack from our stack of grens and cats so we should be able to handle enemy units in that area. We have lots of units we can put in Beijing to keep happiness high (10 archers, 1 warrior, 2 axes) until we are ready to build market or Globe. As you say, the sooner we attack the sooner we get the HE.
And btw. like the idea of pre-chopping our last 2 forest in preparation for building the HE.
Cactus Pete said:
It will take 5 turns to build the market and 9 turns to build the Globe. I think you have been mislead by the overflow hammers that are currently showing in the save.
leif erikson said:
I share this concern. Asoka is currently making 183 gpt at 0% science so if we keep asking for all his gold science rate will surely drop. We probably need to ask for all his money soon to do some crucial upgrades but it would be better if we could in general keep his science rate at a reasonable level. As leif says, we can get a lot more money when he starts capturing cities and that would probably be the best time to build market or Globe since we would then have money for upgrading our archer MP's.
You are correct in this assessment. The problem lies with starting an early war. With Cannons, or better yet Artillery, our siege units have the capability to fight it out without excessive loss. That is the key to rapid domination, units survive to fight another day and do not require constant replacement. This will not be the case with Cats as they are not strong enough to withstand LB's in cities. I think we could go the rest of the game with four or five Cats with Accuracy promo to bombard city culture to zero. It is in the assault of the units that we will lose too many units.
Those losses are replaceable, but delays the creation of a second stack. The march time to the front is more problematic. The need for early CR2 Grens is to offset the lack of siege weapon strengths. Once we can get Cannons into the fight, the need is for CBT1/CBT2, or later, CBT1 and Pinch promos to protect against the Grens and Rifles that will want to attack our stack.
If we build a couple of CR2 Grens and use them effectively, so that they survive, they can later be promoted to CBT1 and Pinch and be even more effective. The need for defensive protection is why I recommended a CBT1/Medic1 promo Gren be added to the mix.
ShannonCT
Deity
If Fred's estimate of 6000 beakers from Asoka is correct, Steel should be coming 3-4 turns after Chem. Why can't we build cats until Steel, then cannons afterward, and get the grens we need from our current mace/choko/archers?
This is a good approach, if we can come up with the Gold. Two Archers to Gren and a Mace to Gren will cost 600 Gold. And then another 200 for Cat to Cannon. I would keep the Cho-Ko's for now as they can provide Collateral Damage when they attack.
Trading around should provide us enough Gold, especially when we change to Theocracy. I think we should consider this approach, and try not to raid Asoka's Gold for now if we can accomplish it without doing so? Priority would be to produce a CBT1/Medic Gren as soon as five Cats are done for healing?
So, we need to assemble a force on the Fur to take on New York and have enough Archers in Beijing to keep some
."It will take 5 turns to build the market and 9 turns to build the Globe. I think you have been mislead by the overflow hammers that are currently showing in the save."
I went to the save and changed the build to Globe and put a citizen on the stone . . . says six turns. Understand, I want to do Globe or market now, and if market has the potential for six happy faces, that would be my strong preference. Perhaps we would need to micro-manage by putting citizen on stone for one turn right now, then switching to cats and/or maces until we've grown one pop, then back to complete the market . Before HE, that is the quickest way to get 4 more units, and it will solve most of our WW issues as well. We can upgrade as we go.
Wash may not send out a pillaging party, but my experience in diety is that the AI is very agressive.
I went to the save and changed the build to Globe and put a citizen on the stone . . . says six turns. Understand, I want to do Globe or market now, and if market has the potential for six happy faces, that would be my strong preference. Perhaps we would need to micro-manage by putting citizen on stone for one turn right now, then switching to cats and/or maces until we've grown one pop, then back to complete the market . Before HE, that is the quickest way to get 4 more units, and it will solve most of our WW issues as well. We can upgrade as we go.
Wash may not send out a pillaging party, but my experience in diety is that the AI is very agressive.
ShannonCT
Deity
Switching a citizen from coast to stone (growing in 6 turns instead of 3) will trade 81 beakers for 27 hammers. Don't know if that is good or bad.
If we take Asoka's ivory and whales now, will that 2 additional happiness be enough to hold us over until after we've put together an attack force to take NY? I understand that building a market after HE is done is wasting some hammers, but building a market when we don't have enough gold to upgrade many/any of our MPs is also putting hammers into something not immediately useful, where hammers used on cats/cannons would be immediately useful.
DJMGator13
Still breathing
Don't forget about our own deficit gpt situation. We're currently running at -30 gpt. I know there is some gold available from selling techs and we'll need to ask for Asoka's gold as already indicated.
For the above upgrades we'll need to add 300 gold to our treasury, plus more to keep our science at 100%.
We're also paying 1 GPT for each unit because of Pacifism. Changing civics to Theocracy should narrow that deficit a bit.
DJMGator13
Still breathing
A little on the bad side, I think. We want to grow as fast as we can since we have picked up some extra health. The next 3 growth citizens we add will all go on hammer rich tiles which will add 13 more raw hammers compared to the 15 hammers being produced by the current 18 worked tiles.
We can't grow all 3 yet but it takes a while to grow at this stage.
ShannonCT
Deity
Besides the extra unit cost of Pacifism, we're paying for having units in foreign territory. Get those archers into India ASAP. And we can gift Asoka some of the archers after we get Chem. Our GPT should soon climb to ~ -5.
In many ways, this argues for CP's request that we build either Globe or Market. We are close to the
limit now. Add a little WW and it will slow things down, unless we plan to use that additional pop to rush one of those builds?
ShannonCT
Deity
In many ways, this argues for CP's request that we build either Globe or Market. We are close to the
After we grow one more pop, we'll have only 1 surplus food per turn and be 29 turns away from another pop increase. When we get the cows, food storage rate will double. We can probably only count on 2 more pop growth for the game. At Pop19, we're at -1 food per turn without rice, or +1 food per turn with rice. I can't see additional population creating a happiness problem.
Not only is building a market after HE wasteful, so is building units before HE.
Seems to me that the better choice is to avoid wastefullness and maximize upgrading, go to war, raze NY, and upgrade some more. I think we can raze NY with the force upgrading will provide. By then HE will be built and we can both build and upgrade units at a high rate.
ShannonCT
Deity
I guess you mean at Pop18? The answer to that question is no. It will take 4 turns, most likely.
Let's say we could get 1000 gold for upgrading. What's the best way to spend it to take NY?
Noting, for the record, that I'd try to draw Wash out with a tethered archer before I attacked, I'd upgrade all CR2 (or hopefully 3) maces available (and any cats to cannons, if we have Steel, but I don't think we would yet), then I'd upgrade chok(s) to grenadiers the same number as there are longbows (and muskets, if any) defending the city. Whatever is left over for choks. I'd move 2 choks and cats onto forest adjacent the city, hope that Wash attacked them during the IBT, bombard with cats and move grenadiers and additional choks up the next turn (probably on a different tile), then bombard and attack the following. Order of attack would depend on defenders. Certainly might have to sacrifice a chok, conceivably two.
Jimmy Thunder
King
If we are going to get Steel very shortly then I would be wanting to build as many cats as we can before that time, especially if it is 1 turn per cat as leif says.
Frederiksberg
Deity
leif erikson said:In many ways, this argues for CP's request that we build either Globe or Market. We are close to the
We can move our archers back to Beijing and get a huge surplus of happy faces. Our archers are no good in combat anyway. Then they can move out later when we have some time to build the market/Globe.
Cactus Pete said:
Market costs 150 hammers and after Beijing grows to pop 18 it will be producing 20 base hammers. This is multiplied by 75% due to Bureaucracy and forge so the hammer output is 35 hpt. So market costs 5 turns - maybe 4 if we do some MM'ing.
I wouldn't want to wait 5 turns for a market that is not immediately necessarry when we need units to get our attack rolling.
Cactus Pete said:
Building units before the HE can be considered a waste and that's why we should build the HE ASAP. This can be achieved by starting war early. Building market after HE is not a waste since it has the same cost before and after i.e. it is independent of the HE.
Cactus Pete said:
I don't think this is possible with the money we have now. And even if it was, capturing NY would still be a lot faster with the units we can get instead of the market (~4 cats). Remember that we have lot's of units and little gold so any units we can upgrade can be sent to the front since we have so many MP's (11 archers, 2 axes, 1 warrior).
I've spent this morning reading about War Weariness, here, and HERE.
It seemed to me in the test game that WW ramped up pretty quickly and caused me to stop building units to get Globe finished. As I had not planned for the WW, Globe took extra time because of all the red faces that showed.
It is not clear to me why this happened as, in prosecuting the strategy of wearing down a city's defenses to allow HC to take it, did not cause us to incur the highest WW values of capturing a city. I thought I would find some modifier for Deity that would explain the hit we took from WW. In actuality, it seems that the modifers work to reduce the Deity AI's WW more than increasing ours, if I read the above correctly. In addition, with a small number of cities per civ, the "wars" did not last that long.
@SCT, in the save you posted, had you fought much earlier in the game? Could some of the WW we encountered have been latent from earlier campaigns?
Additionally, the article does not discuss Permanent Alliances nor does it address OCC. Could there be modifiers that change the base formula for computing WW?
The reason I am asking this is because I am trying to figure out how much of a problem this will be and how to effectively counter it as we are spending a great deal of discussion on this. Perhaps it would be helpful to figure out the magnitude of the problem before trying to develop a solution?
EDIT - Neither article seems to address the changes that may have happened in the ver. 1.74 update?
It seemed to me in the test game that WW ramped up pretty quickly and caused me to stop building units to get Globe finished. As I had not planned for the WW, Globe took extra time because of all the red faces that showed.
It is not clear to me why this happened as, in prosecuting the strategy of wearing down a city's defenses to allow HC to take it, did not cause us to incur the highest WW values of capturing a city. I thought I would find some modifier for Deity that would explain the hit we took from WW. In actuality, it seems that the modifers work to reduce the Deity AI's WW more than increasing ours, if I read the above correctly. In addition, with a small number of cities per civ, the "wars" did not last that long.
@SCT, in the save you posted, had you fought much earlier in the game? Could some of the WW we encountered have been latent from earlier campaigns?
Additionally, the article does not discuss Permanent Alliances nor does it address OCC. Could there be modifiers that change the base formula for computing WW?
The reason I am asking this is because I am trying to figure out how much of a problem this will be and how to effectively counter it as we are spending a great deal of discussion on this. Perhaps it would be helpful to figure out the magnitude of the problem before trying to develop a solution?
EDIT - Neither article seems to address the changes that may have happened in the ver. 1.74 update?
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