SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

I noticed that there is another forest that we will pick up after NY is razed. What if we chopped the two forests in our BFC into building a market and the additional forest into building the HE? Market and HE require a total of 148 base hammers. Three forests give 85 base hammers. The other 63 can be earned from our terrain in 3 turns. We can start the market the same turn as we start the war.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I noticed that there is another forest that we will pick up after NY is razed. What if we chopped the two forests in our BFC into building a market and the additional forest into building the HE? Market and HE require a total of 148 base hammers. Three forests give 85 base hammers. The other 63 can be earned from our terrain in 3 turns. We can start the market the same turn as we start the war.

Why not use those hammers for some cannons instead. We have plenty of time to build a market if there is a need for it. Best time to build it is when we have enough gold to upgrade the units that are released from MP duty.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Why not use those hammers for some cannons instead. We have plenty of time to build a market if there is a need for it. Best time to build it is when we have enough gold to upgrade the units that are released from MP duty.

If we have a need for more units, we have a need for the market, if not for happiness, then to free up units, if not for upgrading, then for gifting to Asoka to insure his agression and success. And, of course as you're no doubt tired of reading, it's more efficient to build units after HE and the market before.

 

[ShannonCT]

Why not use those hammers for some cannons instead. We have plenty of time to build a market if there is a need for it. Best time to build it is when we have enough gold to upgrade the units that are released from MP duty.

I'm looking at the market as a way to get Asoka 4 more grenadiers. The more units he has, the more cities he can take on his own.

 

[leif erikson]

If we take Asoka's gold now, he should reduce his research to accumulate more for upgrading. Let's take what we need to upgrade 4 units now.

We can also gain a significant amount of Gold through trading maps and some techs. I think we should maximize the Gold from trades and then make up the difference by asking Asoka for some?

Right now, Asoka has 7 cats, 3 elephants, and 7 units that he can upgrade to grens. Will that be enough to get him to attack Washington (the city) or will he just pillage? If gifting him 3-4 archers after Chem means he will take Washington right away instead of pillaging, wouldn't that be better than gifting them to him piecemeal? I haven't been play testing so I don't have as good a feel about how the AI will behave when it has overwhelming tech superiority.

We will have Chemistry next turn. We should be able to watch how Asoka's upgrading goes and track his gold expenditures. This should give us some idea of how much it costs for his upgrades and allow us to figure out approximately how much he needs?

Should we upgrade one of the newly build cats to C1/Medic1? That new cat can help the 9/10 gren heal faster. Also, I guess we'll be attacking NY the turn after declaring war because we'll need one turn of bombardment from all our seige units? So that's one more turn for the gren to heal. Maybe we can start the war in ~8 turns. The partially healed gren is going to be taking on a cat that has been reduced by collateral damage. CR2 promo will reduce the the cat by another 45%. So at that point, the cat the gren will be fighting will be below strength 2. Should be an easy win if the gren is at more than half strength.

I would prefer to keep Washington's Cats in NY at bay bu following Fred's attack plan below:

The attack is carried out by bombarding cultural defenses to 3% using 2 accuracy cat's, one combat 1 cat and one accuracy cannon. Then we attack with two CR2 cannons that kill or wound the longbows - if one extra longbow is there we use the extra gren and finally our 9/10 gren attacks the cats. This ought to be a sure win and we can build the HE immediately by chopping our 2 (pre-chopped) forests. It would be more economical in terms of hammers if we attack with one less cannon and it might work but I believe that our 9/10 gren won't be fully healed by then.

Let's not sign a cease fire with HC for a few turns. Wash is sending his units there and he might be less likely to attack and more likely to pillage or to sign a peace treaty if he finds himself without allies.

This is probably a good idea. My concern is that Asoka will begin sending troops in that direction. Perhaps Gator can watch and if he sees a stack headed that way, can then sign a Cease Fire. If we are lucky, that stack can then head for Washington (city)? I think we need to ask Asoka to attack Washington as soon as we declare war. Hopefully, our Cannons will arrive at about the same time as HC's stack...

 

[leif erikson]

I'm looking at the market as a way to get Asoka 4 more grenadiers. The more units he has, the more cities he can take on his own.

Testing doesn't quite bear this out from what I observed. I watched HC go for the least defended cities on his own. He rarely moved against a heavily defended city unless we had already prepared it by knocking out the culture and cutting down on the units present. Then he got there nice and fast!!

Again, we need to ask him and hope he gets there when we do. I think we want to minimize his loss of units as well as our own. We need to try to stay one or two turns ahead of his stacks, in getting to cities we want, to prepare things for his easy victory.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I'm looking at the market as a way to get Asoka 4 more grenadiers. The more units he has, the more cities he can take on his own.

The hammers used to build the market could give us around 2.5 cannons. I think we can put those to better use than Asoka can with 4 grenadiers. I am more focused on building a decent stack of cannons for the capture of Washington. The happiness problems are under control using MP's and it's probably preferable to keep these archers for our own use (and upgrade) later.

If we have a need for more units, we have a need for the market, if not for happiness, then to free up units, if not for upgrading, then for gifting to Asoka to insure his aggression and success. And, of course as you're no doubt tired of reading, it's more efficient to build units after HE and the market before.

Well let me repeat myself as well then: The market will only free up units that are not useful in combat. And if the market comes immediately before the HE we will be building the exact same number of units before HE as we will if we build the market later. So the "wasted" hammers are exactly the same.

The bottom line is: Do we think we think that Asoka can do more with 4 grenadiers than we can with 2.5 cannons right now?

 

[leif erikson]

The hammers used to build the market could give us around 2.5 cannons. I think we can put those to better use than Asoka can with 4 grenadiers. I am more focused on building a decent stack of cannons for the capture of Washington. The happiness problems are under control using MP's and it's probably preferable to keep these archers for our own use (and upgrade) later.

As long as we can control happiness using the excess Archers we have, I agree that a stack of Cannons is more useful atm.

I gifted no units to HC in the test games I tried. We can use them much more effectively than he can.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"The bottom line is: Do we think we think that Asoka can do more with 4 grenadiers than we can with 2.5 cannons right now?"

No, I don't, but that's a misleading simplification because it either assumes we will never want to build the market or it only examines the trade-off over a very short time interval. I could argue analogously that, after we have HE, would you rather build the market (and free 4 units) or cannons over the same number of turns? Since we would be able to build more cannons at that time, the argument would be even more one-sided. Your argument stands on the reasonable concept that units available immediately for our use are more valuable than those available later, which is certainly true. I just think the inefficiency is sufficiently great to take a longer-term view in this case.

 

[Frederiksberg]

No, I don't, but that's a misleading simplification because it either assumes we will never want to build the market or it only examines the trade-off over a very short time interval. I could argue analogously that, after we have HE, would you rather build the market (and free 4 units) or cannons over the same number of turns? Since we would be able to build more cannons at that time, the argument would be even more one-sided. Your argument stands on the reasonable concept that units available immediately for our use are more valuable than those available later, which is certainly true. I just think the inefficiency is sufficiently great to take a longer-term view in this case.

Your getting me wrong CP. What I'm saying is that:

1. The immediate benefit of the market is 4 grenadiers to Asoka and for the same hammers we can get around 2½ cannon. Feel free to check this estimate - I think it's close enough.

2. Chopping the market followed by HE means that we are building the same number of units before the HE as we would if we simply chopped the HE and then built cannons using the overflow and the extra forest we get when NY is razed. Since any wasted hammers are due to building units before the HE there are no more wasted hammers if we choose to postpone the market for later - see my explanation at the bottom of this post Draft plan.

3. This leads to the conclusion, that since the market has the same cost later and the wasted hammers (~1.6 cannon or less if we implement Shannons plan of earlier attack) are unchanged we might as well postpone building the market to a later date where we can get a better deal for two reasons: a) We would have a larger army so using a few hammers for something else than units will have less relative impact and b) We will have more gold so instead of gifting those archers to Asoka we can keep them and upgrade them to Grenadiers ourselves.

4. We stay more flexible by postponing the market because right now we can't know for sure if we really need it although it's likely that this deal will be favorable somewhere along the way. But there is also the option of the Globe that should be considered. Market will release some of our MP's but the Globe will release ALL of them and it's not given that the market is more efficient in terms of hammers per released unit. Further the Globe has the advantage that we can use the whip freely at a later stage of the game when Beijing is transformed from tech center to a production monster. Drafting rifles is another possibility with the Globe.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Your getting me wrong CP. What I'm saying is that:

1. The immediate benefit of the market is 4 grenadiers to Asoka and for the same hammers we can get around 2½ cannon. Feel free to check this estimate - I think it's close enough.I'm not debating this. If you thought that, you got me wrong.

2. Chopping the market followed by HE means that we are building the same number of units before the HE as we would if we simply chopped the HE and then built cannons using the overflow and the extra forest we get when NY is razed. I just don't follow this. Since any wasted hammers are due to building units before the HE (rather than afterwards) there are no more wasted hammers if we choose to postpone the market for later - see my explanation at the bottom of this post Draft plan.

3. This leads to the conclusion, that since the market has the same cost later and the wasted hammers (~1.6 cannon or less if we implement Shannons plan of earlier attack) are unchanged (By unchanged, are you saying that, no matter what we do, we're going to waste those hammers?)we might as well postpone building the market to a later date where we can get a better deal for two reasons: a) We would have a larger army so using a few hammers for something else than units will have less relative impact and b) We will have more gold so instead of gifting those archers to Asoka we can keep them and upgrade them to Grenadiers ourselves. Can't argue with either a or b.

4. We stay more flexible by postponing the market because right now we can't know for sure if we really need it although it's likely that this deal will be favorable somewhere along the way. But there is also the option of the Globe that should be considered. Market will release some of our MP's but the Globe will release ALL of them and it's not given that the market is more efficient in terms of hammers per released unit. Further the Globe has the advantage that we can use the whip freely at a later stage of the game when Beijing is transformed from tech center to a production monster. Drafting rifles is another possibility with the Globe.

I agree that the choice between the market and Globe is not clear cut, but I don't agree that it's very likely that we won't want one or the other -- four units, plus happiness is very attractive.
Whether we construct a happiness building or not before we get the HE, the fewer units we build before we have it, the better -- less waste, faster Domination. So a battle plan that maximizes upgrading and the use of available units is called for.

 

[Mad Professor]

I watched HC go for the least defended cities on his own. He rarely moved against a heavily defended city unless we had already prepared it by knocking out the culture and cutting down on the units present. Then he got there nice and fast!!

Yes, yes, yes. This is a really big tip from that test game as far as getting things done fast is concerned. It seemed to work every time - big defending stack meant the AI wandered around in circles plundering his own futue empire and going nowhere, or even worse, kept his units at home. As soon as I reduced the defences he went in there like there was no tomorrow. There's surely some raio of attackers to defenders in the code that governs when an AI will go for the jugular. I big factor in getting this attack done fast will be putting poorly defended cities in front of Asoka's attackers.

 

[DJMGator13]

I'm not sure if this reveals the true discount the AI gets for unit upgrades, but one of the BTS references says that the "AI costs" for Deity level is 0.60.

Steel should be in 5 turns from now (1 for Chem 4 for Steel). So we're at least 5 turns until cannons are available. Add in a turn of anarchy for the civic change and we've got the 6 turns it takes to get the mace back home.

Can we learn a tech while in anarchy or should we wait until after Chemistry comes in to change the civic?

 

[leif erikson]

I'm not sure if this reveals the true discount the AI gets for unit upgrades, but one of the BTS references says that the "AI costs" for Deity level is 0.60.

Steel should be in 5 turns from now (1 for Chem 4 for Steel). So we're at least 5 turns until cannons are available. Add in a turn of anarchy for the civic change and we've got the 6 turns it takes to get the mace back home.

Then we have to get him healed...

Can we learn a tech while in anarchy or should we wait until after Chemistry comes in to change the civic?

We know what Asoka knows? If he doesn't go into anarchy, he'll learn it and so should we? Seems logical, but that doesn't mean its true...

 

[ShannonCT]

I'm not sure if this reveals the true discount the AI gets for unit upgrades, but one of the BTS references says that the "AI costs" for Deity level is 0.60.

Unit upgrades cost the AI a whopping 5% on Deity.

 

[leif erikson]

Unit upgrades cost the AI a whopping 5% on Deity.

How do we get in one that deal??

 

[rrau]

One point, once war weariness kicks in bad and citizens quit working, will we be able to build the market and globe as quickly as now. I must say I'm very hesitant about going into a series of wars and multiple wars at once without the globe.

 

[Frederiksberg]

2. Chopping the market followed by HE means that we are building the same number of units before the HE as we would if we simply chopped the HE and then built cannons using the overflow and the extra forest we get when NY is razed. I just don't follow this. Since any wasted hammers are due to building units before the HE (rather than afterwards) there are no more wasted hammers if we choose to postpone the market for later - see my explanation at the bottom of this post.

You can look at it this way: The proposal was to chop the market. But since chopped hammers can always be cashed in after the HE is built i.e. with full unit production bonus there is no special benefit in using them for the market now compared to using some other (post-HE) hammers for market later. Thus, my proposal to wait with the market/Globe.

3. This leads to the conclusion, that since the market has the same cost later and the wasted hammers (~1.6 cannon or less if we implement Shannons plan of earlier attack) are unchanged (By unchanged, are you saying that, no matter what we do, we're going to waste those hammers?)we might as well postpone building the market to a later date where we can get a better deal.

If we use chopped hammers to build the market or if we build the market at a time where we could have built the HE instead then we might as well build it anytime later. If we build it first thing then we waste the hammers given by my calculation in my draft plan (160 hammers or 1.6 cannon). This is the price we pay to get the attack off the ground faster instead of waiting 5 additional turns.

Whether we construct a happiness building or not before we get the HE, the fewer units we build before we have it, the better -- less waste, faster Domination. So a battle plan that maximizes upgrading and the use of available units is called for.

The aim with my draft plan is to get the HE fast and with little risk of failure. If we go for Shannons idea..

Should we upgrade one of the newly build cats to C1/Medic1? That new cat can help the 9/10 gren heal faster. Also, I guess we'll be attacking NY the turn after declaring war because we'll need one turn of bombardment from all our seige units? So that's one more turn for the gren to heal. Maybe we can start the war in ~8 turns. The partially healed gren is going to be taking on a cat that has been reduced by collateral damage. CR2 promo will reduce the the cat by another 45%. So at that point, the cat the gren will be fighting will be below strength 2. Should be an easy win if the gren is at more than half strength.

..we save around 70 hammers so the waste is reduced to 160-70/2=125 hammers.

Leif had a reservation about bombarding first and then attacking next turn due to the risk of counterattacks from the cats. We can to some extent avoid this problem by keeping our grens in Beijing where they are out of reach of the cats while they can still attack directly.

 

[Frederiksberg]

One point, once war weariness kicks in bad and citizens quit working, will we be able to build the market and globe as quickly as now. I must say I'm very hesitant about going into a series of wars and multiple wars at once without the globe.

We should keep an eye on the WW and act on it before we run out of MP's to keep happiness. Curently we have enough MP's to handle 8 red faces and if we ask for ivory it's 9. When our army is big enough to handle two wars at a time we should probably think about getting the Globe (or market).

 

[leif erikson]

Leif had a reservation about bombarding first and then attacking next turn due to the risk of counterattacks from the cats. We can to some extent avoid this problem by keeping our grens in Beijing where they are out of reach of the cats while they can still attack directly.

I understand the focus on getting HE and not wasting hammers in building units before it is done. We are focusing on NY but also need to consider what happens after NY, at Washington's capitol. We can not afford to lose Cats to a counter from units in NY. Siege weapons are our greatest asset in the coming campaigns.

Speed is essential in getting our units from NY to Washington and breaking down the defenses to allow Asoka to take the city and siege weapons are the key to accomplishing that. All the concerns about Asoka pillaging around Washington will happen unless we break down the defenses, for only then do I believe he will attack to take the city. If we do not have it prepared, pillage will be his mission.

It seems to me we are trying to serve two masters here that are not really compatible. We need a war in order to promote a unit which then allows us to build HE to produce more units quickly. However, we are not really ready to fight that war decisively without the siege units needed to break down the defenses. In addition, Washington has no offensive units at the moment, so the time to strike is sooner rather than later. Also, fighting this war without the necessary preparations prolongs it and that is what will cause the war weariness we are trying to avoid.

So what is our objective at this point? What is our priority? Perhaps we should look at this problem from the standpoint of what we wish to accomplish?

We should keep an eye on the WW and act on it before we run out of MP's to keep happiness. Curently we have enough MP's to handle 8 red faces and if we ask for ivory it's 9. When our army is big enough to handle two wars at a time we should probably think about getting the Globe (or market).

In fighting Washington, we should not have a WW problem if we can do so with vigor. Only by getting bogged down by lack of preparation, or if Asoka is slow in reaching Washington, will WW be a problem, imho. Once Washington is in history's dustbin, WW will be back to zero again.