SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

Whether we construct a happiness building or not before we get the HE, the fewer units we build before we have it, the better -- less waste, faster Domination. So a battle plan that maximizes upgrading and the use of available units is called for.

What about this: We have 495 gold. Asoka can give us 273. The other AI can give us 490. That's 1258. When we switch out of Theocracy and get our units out of Washington's territory, we'll be at -11 GPT. We could improve that a bit more if we gifted Asoka a couple archers after Chem. So 7 turns from now, we should have ~1200 gold. (We might be able to get more from Asoka or from other AI at that point.)

proposed upgrades:
Choko -> Gren : 140 gold
G2 archer -> LB : 95
9/10 mace -> Gren : 110
4 cats -> 4 cannons : 800

Total: 1145 gold

If we can build 4 cats before we attack, 1 can become a Medic, and the others can be upgraded with CR and accuracy promos such that the defenses of NY can be taken down in 1 turns and we can attack on the next. The Medic cat can stay a cat, and our other 4 cats can become cannons. If we have a Medic in the stack, any damage from a cat attack will be mostly/completely healed by the next turn. The AI tends to only attack with 1-2 cats in these circumstances. After the 4th cat is built, and while we're waiting for the upgrading/healing/bombarding, we can build either the market or the theater/Globe with the help of the chops, and then build the HE next.

 

[Frederiksberg]

What about this: We have 495 gold. Asoka can give us 273. The other AI can give us 490. That's 1258. When we switch out of Theocracy and get our units out of Washington's territory, we'll be at -11 GPT. We could improve that a bit more if we gifted Asoka a couple archers after Chem. So 7 turns from now, we should have ~1200 gold. (We might be able to get more from Asoka or from other AI at that point.)

proposed upgrades:
Choko -> Gren : 140 gold
G2 archer -> LB : 95
9/10 mace -> Gren : 110
4 cats -> 4 cannons : 800

Total: 1145 gold

If we can build 4 cats before we attack, 1 can become a Medic, and the others can be upgraded with CR and accuracy promos such that the defenses of NY can be taken down in 1 turns and we can attack on the next. The Medic cat can stay a cat, and our other 4 cats can become cannons. If we have a Medic in the stack, any damage from a cat attack will be mostly/completely healed by the next turn. The AI tends to only attack with 1-2 cats in these circumstances.

This sound like a good plan!

After the 4th cat is built, and while we're waiting for the upgrading/healing/bombarding, we can build either the market or the theater/Globe with the help of the chops, and then build the HE next.

As I argued in my previous post we might as well build the market later because it's not cheaper to build now using chops than it will be at a later stage. If we start the attack after 5 turns we will get the HE earlier and the hammers "wasted" will be marginal. So I find that it's much better to chop the HE and some more cannons since they are immediately usefull in the attack against Washington whereas the market/Globe will not be usefull before we get some more gold / or when the WW starts to be a problem.

 

[Cactus Pete]

proposed upgrades:
Choko -> Gren : 140 gold
G2 archer -> LB : 95
9/10 mace -> Gren : 110
4 cats -> 4 cannons : 800
Prefer a CR2 mace upgraded to a gren in place of a fourth cat to cannon
Total: 1145 gold

If we can build 4 cats before we attack, 1 can become a Medic, and the others can be upgraded with CR and accuracy promos such that the defenses of NY can be taken down in 1 turns and we can attack on the next. 2 cannons with bombard and one with medic can bombard the first turn and the medic and one cannon with bombard the next to get to 0% culture, leaving one cannon to attack the next turn, which should be sufficient, especially with a CR2 grenadier availble. The Medic cat can stay a cat. If we have a Medic in the stack, any damage from a cat attack will be mostly/completely healed by the next turn. The AI tends to only attack with 1-2 cats in these circumstances. After the 4th cat (or CR2 gren) is built, and while we're waiting for the upgrading/healing/bombarding, we can build either the market or the theater/Globe with the help of the chops, and then build the HE next.

Like this (I was writing essentially the same proposal when your post popped up).

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

What culture % do we have to reduce at NY?

Cannons supposedly reduce 20% defences while Cats reduce 15%... so what combination of seige units and promotions (the fewer Accuracy and more CityRaider the better!) do we need to be able to attack a 0% city on the second turn?

Will 3 CR2 cannons and 1 medic cat be sufficient?

The medic cat should be able to bombard on the first and second turn.

 

[leif erikson]

What culture % do we have to reduce at NY?

New York's culture is at 60%.

Initially, I wrote just 60% and the site told me that the message was too short and that I had to write at least 10 characters. Never been told that before!!

 

[Mad Professor]

The latest save is the one Gator posted in post #745, is that correct? I just want to make suure I have the latest one in front of me here...

 

[Cactus Pete]

What culture % do we have to reduce at NY? If we want to reduce all of it in Vanilla, we just have to bombard 100% worth. 2 accuracy cats (25% reduction) bombarding two consecutive turns would do it.
Cannons supposedly reduce 20% defences while Cats reduce 15%... so what combination of seige units and promotions (the fewer Accuracy and more CityRaider the better!) do we need to be able to attack a 0% city on the second turn? Within 10%, I'd say, to avoid possible excessive loss of units.

Will 3 CR2 cannons and 1 medic cat be sufficient? More than sufficient over two turns, but with one accuracy and one CR2, plus the medic, we'd get down to 0% in two turns (or we could hold the medic in reserve and attack at 10%) and have the 2CR one still available to attack.
The medic cat should be able to bombard on the first and second turn.

Yes, or even be available to attack a wounded unit, if we're willing to leave culture at 10%.

 

[DJMGator13]

The latest save is the one Gator posted in post #745, is that correct? I just want to make suure I have the latest one in front of me here...

Yes, the save with the PA signed is in post 745. Here is a link.

 

[leif erikson]

Roster change:
Mad Professor - UP
Gator - On Deck
rrau
leif
ShannonCT
Jimmy Thunder
Cactus Pete
Frederiksberg

Mistfit -

We've discussed this long enough that Gator has to go on a business trip and has requested a swap with MP, who has graciously decided to step up. Since the save has the same date, no turn has been played yet, I've asked MP to pick up the save that Gator posted after declaring on Alex with Lizzie and making the PA.

Thank you all for the discussion, it has been good. I think we are nearly to a point where MP can put together a plan that we can work with, hopefully getting to play starting this weekend.

Take 'er away MP!!
And have a great trip Gator, hope we're ready for you to play upon your return.

EDIT - I had to go back nearly 200 posts to find the roster to copy and paste.

 

[Mad Professor]

We've discussed this long enough that Gator has to go on a business trip and has requested a swap with MP, who has graciously decided to step up. Since the save has the same date, no turn has been played yet, I've asked MP to pick up the save that Gator posted after declaring on Alex with Lizzie and making the PA.

Thank you all for the discussion, it has been good. I think we are nearly to a point where MP can put together a plan that we can work with, hopefully getting to play starting this weekend.

Take 'er away MP!!

I'll re-read discussion and try to summarise where we're at in the form of a plan for the coming turns within the next 12 hours or so. I suspect we're not quite settled or agreed on a couple of points, but I'll highlight that when I go through it. I hope to start playing on the weekend, and I expect I'll be stopping at least a couple of times in the turn set for further discussion. I can play in bits and pieces during some evenings next week if the turn set does not get all done on the weekend (which I suspect it won't). I'm happy with the idea of the turn set stretching over a number of days if necessary to get discussion on important points.

 

[Frederiksberg]

My suggestion for an upgrade and attack plan would basically be what Shannon suggested earlier. There will be one turn of anarchy and then it should take 5 turns to build those 4 cats. The last one could be the medic. When moving our 9/10 mace home we can do the following small trick to speed up his recovery: When he reaches India we move him two steps towards Beijing and then upgrade to grenadier before all movement points are gone. This means that he will reach Beijing at the same time but he will be upgraded already! The cannons should be upgraded as soon as they are built. Since we don't upgrade the last cat we build we should be able to attack immediately 6 turns from now beginning with the bombarding by the cannons. We could decide to bombard only with 3 cannon leaving NY at 6% defense. If this cannon wins it will be at 8/10 XP and we would have 2 shots at getting a 10/10 units next turn. We could even let it have only one CR promotion thus using the 2nd promotion to do some inter-turn healing. Then next turn we attack with everything letting the medic cat remove the remaining 6% defense and looking for easy battles for our two candidates for 10 XP. This should surely be possible and we can chop the HE immediately.

Builds: 4xcat -> Cannon (1 turn) -> HE (1 turn, chop) -> finish Cannon (1 turn) -> cannon (1-2 turns).

The amount of "wasted" hammers using this approach is only 20 compared to building the market/Globe and we get fresh cannons 4 turns faster (compared to market) and 6-7 turns faster compared to Globe. There are 10 units in Washington so these fresh units would be a welcome addition to the stack that should move there ASAP after NY is razed.

 

[Mad Professor]

OK, I have a copy of the save here ready. Here’s my interpretation of the recent discussion in the form of a plan to adjust. I’ve left some things indefinite because I want clarification. This summary concentrates mainly on the next few turns up to attacking and razing New York, but I will probably stop and report by then anyhow so we can discuss anything further necessary before I continue.

Current turn is turn 134, 475AD (have I got my settings for the turn number the same as everyone else?)
We’ve just declared on Alex and bribed Liz to do the same after getting the PA with Asoka. There have been some wars started on the other continent.

Before ending turn do:
Sign ceasefire agreements with Capac and Kublai (they have only about 40 gold between them – this is not worth a ten turn peace treaty?)
Bring workers home
Ask Asoka to change study to Chemistry – if we adopt theocracy, our study won’t count anyway this coming turn
Trade our map around for as much gold as possible
Trade Liberalism to Cyrus and Saladin for a bit more gold
Change Civic to Theocracy

After this, do:
Military:
The CR2 Mace – I’ll bring it home, upgrade as it arrives in friendly territory without taking up an extra turn. If we fought one more battle with it, we could make it a CR3 mace before upgrade as it won’t be possible to do CR3 as a gren. I won’t do that though as it makes the NY attack force that much weaker. The only way to upgrade it before attacking America as a CR3 would be to have a battle in Greece on the way home. Too risky – it might not win.
Bring archers to Beijing for either upgrade or MP duty as necessary/possible. If happies go better than we think, some could be given to Asoka for cheap upgrade. Will have to wait a bit on this and see.

Tech:
After Chemistry, Study Steel then Physics
Ask Asoka to study same as us until one turn from Physics – at this point, set him on the artillery beeline
Use existing GS to speed up Physics
Save the GS from Physics for later use
Beeline to Artillery – other techs needed on the way will be Banking, Replaceable Parts and Rifling, in that order, yes?

Workers:
Pre-chop forests near Beijing ready for buildings, first of all the HE

Building:
4 cats in the next few turns as fast as possible (5 turns I think with a little manipulation?) One of these cats must have medic promotion. Then on to canons, but pause to chop the HE as soon as we have the unit with 10XP after war declaration. This gets the battle underway fast, with good hope of having enough to carry it through well. I’ll pump out military but need to watch the happies carefully. Market vs Theatre/Globe did not seem to be resolved. We might get to continue that discussion before the build becomes a must, if we use archers as MP’s for now?

Upgrades:
The CR2 mace to gren
The G2 archer to lbow
All but one cat to canons
When exactly? I propose the turn before war declaration, ask Asoka for money if necessary.

I’ll start playing when everyone’s had a chance to comment on this plan and there’s no argument raging – in about 20 hours if everyone’s quick and agreeable, or maybe in about 36 hours perhaps. I’ll wait longer if I have to but it would be good to get things moving again. I’ll keep a detailed log, including changes in happy faces.

So talk to me.

 

[ShannonCT]

Sign ceasefire agreements with Capac and Kublai (they have only about 40 gold between them – this is not worth a ten turn peace treaty?)

Every bit of gold helps. I don't see any reason to not get a peace treaty.

Trade our map around for as much gold as possible. Trade Liberalism to Cyrus and Saladin for a bit more gold

We might be able to get more gold if we wait a few turns to trade techs. We only need the gold when we're getting close to declaring on Washington. When the time comes to upgrade the cats and Choko, you can decide what techs you want to trade away. Liberalism and Education are good ones.

Tech:
After Chemistry, Study Steel then Physics

You might need to delay Steel by one turn to build the 4th cat.

Use existing GS to speed up Physics

And we can use him right now to avoid paying maintenance on him.

Banking, Replaceable Parts and Rifling, in that order, yes?

Hopefully we can trade for Banking.

ask Asoka for money if necessary.

I think you should ask for all of Asoka's gold right away. He should reaccumulate gold to upgrade his units.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Agree with SCT's suggestions. You might want to wait a turn or two to sign peace or cease fire with Capac to make sure Wash doesn't get cold feet without two allies and continues to send units in that direction. A cease fire will allow us to attack again at will and traverse his territory.

Build theater (at least) during any turns between time our attack force is built and the HE is available. Theater will increase effectiveness of culture slider if we have to use it for a turn or two to counter WW.

You need to position units in anticipation of possible immediate pillaging parties. Leaving a couple of archers in India to possibly gift and help Asoka counter might be wise. A single longbow on the silver may be insufficient. Perhaps the axe should go there, if not on Asoka's gold.

 

[leif erikson]

There are two trades we should make during the current turn. Lizzie will give us 60 Gold for our Map and Julius will give us 50 for it. No techs needed. Waiting a bit for other trades may be a good idea as some of the civs might build up a bit more?
I hope we can trade for Banking as well.

I also agree that we should ask for Asoka's gold this turn.

If we delay signing with Capac, which I think is a good idea, please keep an eye on Asoka's movements. If he is sending a stack that way, sign a cease fire to keep that stack for use against Washington. Let's try not to let Asoka get side tracked anywhere...
If we can get some Gold for Peace with Kublai and Capac, that would probably be OK. We had planned to go and visit Lizzie next anyway, so I don't see how we'll get back to Capac before then. Cease fires maintain our flexibility though.

Once we declare, I think it would be good to visit Asoka and ask him to go and attack Washington (the city).

For upgrades, you will probably need at least another Grenadier, perhaps two, by upgrading Archers. The upgrades can be performed the turn before declaring. We should keep in mind the cost to insure we have the gold on hand when we need it.

If we are going to position troops to thwart pillaging parties, we should move them soon to allow them to get the fortify bonus before we declare.

 

[Cactus Pete]

There are two trades we should make during the current turn. Lizzie will give us 60 Gold for our Map and Julius will give us 50 for it. No techs needed. Waiting a bit for other trades may be a good idea as some of the civs might build up a bit more? SOUNDS GOOD.
I hope we can trade for Banking as well.

I also agree that we should ask for Asoka's gold this turn.

If we delay signing with Capac, which I think is a good idea, please keep an eye on Asoka's movements. If he is sending a stack that way, sign a cease fire to keep that stack for use against Washington. Let's try not to let Asoka get side tracked anywhere...
If we can get some Gold for Peace with Kublai and Capac, that would probably be OK. We had planned to go and visit Lizzie next anyway, so I don't see how we'll get back to Capac before then. Cease fires maintain our flexibility though.

Once we declare, I think it would be good to visit Asoka and ask him to go and attack Washington (the city). I'm not sure we want Asoka to march on Wash before we do.

For upgrades, you will probably need at least another Grenadier, perhaps two, by upgrading Archers. The upgrades can be performed the turn before declaring. We should keep in mind the cost to insure we have the gold on hand when we need it.

If we are going to position troops to thwart pillaging parties, we should move them soon to allow them to get the fortify bonus before we declare.

Yes, and bear in mind that Wash could come with two cats. Still think we should stake out an archer on a non-defensive tile.

 

[leif erikson]

I'm not sure we want Asoka to march on Wash before we do.

I certainly agree!

The problem here is that of timing. We do not want Asoka there before we have prepared the city for his conquest (he might start pillaging or, worse, lose some units), but we also do not want to wait 5 turns for him to get there. In testing, if I asked nicely for the HC to take a city, he generally required 4 or so turns to get there with any strength, depending upon distance to march, etc. Perhaps I should have said that when we begin our move to Washington (the city), we should ask Asoka to join us there?

Yes, and bear in mind that Wash could come with two cats. Still think we should stake out an archer on a non-defensive tile.

Will we have a spare Archer? I see no problem with trying this and seeing if Washington will take the bait...

 

[Frederiksberg]

One of these cats must have medic promotion.

Should be the last one because the previous 3 cats need to be upgraded and ready for attack the turn when the last cat is built and the medic cat can stay in Beijing healing our 9/10 grenadier while the cannons bombard. If we follow my attack idea then 2 cannons get CR1+Accuracy and 1 cannon get CR1. The last cannon is already promoted (Combat 1). If we bombard with the two accuracy cannons and the Combat 1 cannon cultural defenses should go down by 30%+30%+20%=80% i.e. down to 12% (not 6% as I said earlier). The longbow should have a strength of 8.5 against the strength 12 CR1 cannon - an easy win I think and upgrading it next turn should give it reasonable odds for gaining a second win against one of the cats. (The idea is to have two shots for a 10 XP unit).

Upgrades:
The CR2 mace to gren
The G2 archer to lbow
All but one cat to canons
When exactly? I propose the turn before war declaration, ask Asoka for money if necessary.

Well at least no later than that. Does upgrading affect fortification defense bonus? In that case we would want to upgrade the G2 archer ASAP because it's placed in a defensive position on the silver hill. Any reason not to do all upgrades ASAP?

You might need to delay Steel by one turn to build the 4th cat.

Good point! Do this by switching our research to Physics for one turn if Steel is coming early.

(5 turns I think with a little manipulation?)

No manipulation needed - Beijing will grow in 3 turns and the extra pop can work the stone providing the extra hammers we need.

 

[leif erikson]

Well at least no later than that. Does upgrading affect fortification defense bonus? In that case we would want to upgrade the G2 archer ASAP because it's placed in a defensive position on the silver hill. Any reason not to do all upgrades ASAP?

I think it may affect fortification level. Your right that we should upgrade the Archer to LB asap. The reason not to upgrade all may be gold? If we are going to trade some techs later in the hope of the AI having more Gold, then MP may not have enough.

Of course, with Cats to Cannons coming a bit later, we should have enough for early upgrades...

Good point! Do this by switching our research to Physics for one turn if Steel is coming early.

Please don't forget to also switch Asoka!

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I'm onboard with the plans, things seem very well thought out!