SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Mad Professor]

I think we need to discuss how we are going to go to war. And, please MP, correct me if your experience was different.

The 4.5 turns per city was achieved through the use of Siege weapons.

I agree seige weapons are important. This is one thing Asoka will probably use badly, so if we can use a significant number of seige weapons well, then we can compensate for this. Ideally, we want Asoka approaching cities that are dead easy to take so he'll just go in and take rather than wander around in circles plundering the countryside to nothing instead of doing something constructive.

The groups I built were composed of three Grenadiers and 5 to 7 Cannons, later Artillery. It goes way faster with Artillery. The Siege weapons in vanilla will kill the units in the cities as effectively, or more so, than the foot units. The Grens and Rifles are there to protect the Siege weapons and do a little clean up once and a while.

I started with smaller stacks and this seemed to be OK, but more seige weapons might chop turns off the time it takes. When its canons, the other units (grens with CR promotions, and rifles) are more important because canons can still be a little fragile. Once Artillery came along the battle turned to slaughter. They really kick butt if you get them early! We really must keep the tech pace up until we have it. They really make a difference.

In our case, I think the fastest way to build an army would be to build one more CR2 Mace and a CBT1 and Medic1 Archer so the stack would have a CBT1/Medic1 Grenadier and two CR2 Grens and the rest would be Cannons. Thus we would need to build a stack of at least 5 Cats or Cannons. You cannot count on Asoka to do anything but take the city, imho. We should plan to have the city bombarded to zero culture and all but one weak unit eliminated when Asoka shows up.

The medic is absolutely essential. An absolute must or your stack which is preparing cities for your PA partner becomes depleted and too wounded, and you waste turns healing.

I agree that the best way is to leave nothing to Asoke except waltzing into the city and taking it from a battered and depleted defence. If Asoka takes cities without our help, that's a bonus, but it won't happen often early on in the war because he won't have the total military dominance the AI wants before it makes bold military moves. Without this dominance, he'll keep stacks back from the front and send out plundering parties. If you provide him with a dead easy target (ie a city with one battered defender) he's much more likely to just waltz in and take it.

Once we get going, we should be building almost entirely Siege units. And Globe is important because as we do most of the fighting, it doesn't take long for War Weariness to begin effecting our ability to produce replacement Siege units.

WW really hurts after a while. In SCT's test, I had to fight hard to keep Beijing from shrinking all the time without the globe because of it, and I was using Police State too because the pyramids were on our continent in that one. We don't need the globe straight away - that is, we could declare war and start the push without it, but we'd need it well before the end.

If we are going to count on Asoka to do some of the fighting, I believe that the turns per city will increase to more like 6 or 7 turns per city. We must also consider turns to heal units, especially with the Cats that Washington has.

We need the medic reight at the beginning. Turns count no matter when you waste them.

 

[leif erikson]

Big stacks are targets for Wash's cats. 2 grenadiers and 2 cats are all we need to put on one tile, until we're fighting more than cats, muskets, and longbows.

Yes, except for the initial attack on New York. We can have our units next to the city, in our territory, when we declare. Movement to Washington would require that we break up units into smaller groups, I would think?

We currently have 495 gold and can get 273 from Asoka for a total of 768 gold.

The upgrade costs are:

Axe -> Gren: 215
Archer -> Gren: 245
Cat -> Cannon: 200
Mace -> Gren: 110
Choko -> Gren: 140

So we have money for upgrade of 6 (almost 7) maces to grenadiers while we can only upgrade 3 archers to grenadiers. Maybe the conclusion is that we should build some CR2 maces and upgrade and use only cats in the initial attack. Would it be useful to have a single cannon for bombarding?

In vanilla, we can get away with four Cats to accomplish bombardment of culture to zero with the Accuracy promo. At least one CR2 Cannon would be nice to reduce the strength of the LB's.
EDIT - Thus the need for Theocracy and the double promo for our Siege weapons, our CR2 Maces and the Medic promo for our Grenadier.

We really need a medic unit. I'm thinking that we might want more grenadiers in the beginning and then ramp up on cannons later. CR2 grens are pretty good against longbows.

Been playing with a Combat Odds calculator.
With a city at 0% culture, a CR2 Grenadier has a 52.5% chance versus a LB with a 25% fortification bonus, if this thing is correct. With the LB at strength 4, the CR2 Gren has an 85.7% chance to win.

As soon as we have Steel we can probably expect Asoka to upgrade all his cats to cannons (and xbows to grens after Chem.). By declaring a little early on Washington we would at least give Asoka a chance to be a little active in the attack.

If he has the Gold, yes. It will be far cheaper for him to upgrade than for us!

If we get an early start it's more acceptable that the conquest takes a little longer

I agree as long as we have the strength to do so effectively. Please remember our delay in taking Carthage last game thanks to the RNG!
The roll of the RNG is difficult to plan for but I think it requires that we have some margin of safety for backup in case it happens again. How much to have is something we have to decide.

In the beginning when we lack gold for upgrades we can also consider building cannons. The Heroic Epic will be available faster if we can upgrade our 9/10 mace to grenadier and use him against a longbow. Unfortunately he's quite badly wounded so it might be better to build some 6/10 maces, upgrade to grens and then go looking for two successful battles. The sooner we get Chemistry and some action the sooner we get the HE. Globe is nice but may not be mandatory - at least in the initial phase. And it doesn't look like we have the gold to upgrade the liberated archer MP's to grens anyway.

While I agree with most of this, the key to swift victory is in producing Artillery! The faster we get there the faster we will clean up the map. If getting Physics first will speed us to Artillery, then that is where I would like to go.

The nice thing about this variant is that with a small number of cities, if we are quick and can bring Asoka along, we can take the cities we need and cut War Weariness off before it gets too bad. In the testing, I did have problems with WW and took extra turns to build Globe because I couldn't maintain tech rate and build as too many citizens had red faces. Building it earlier will, I believe, result in a faster finish date.

 

[DJMGator13]

Yes, I also think we need this discussion before Gator continues.

I forgot to see what the impact of the HG did to our health and surplus food situation. HG should have given us 1 more health, the cow will give us another and eventually we'll pick up 1 more when we get Asoka to 2 sources of rice.

As CP noted our next growth will go on a hammer only tile so our production will become better.

If we do the razing of New York we'll pick up a little more gold which could go to upgrading another unit or two.

BTW, I was just running some numbers on if the observatory was worth building. At current commerce levels where we make 154 bpt before modifiers and counting both Asoka's universities, we're just shy of 850 bpt (real number @ 847). There are times when an observatory would shave a single turn off the rate but overall it did not make a big difference. Asoka's increase should outweigh gains we can make.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Thus the need for Theocracy and the double promo for our Siege weapons, our CR2 Maces and the Medic promo for our Grenadier.

Yes, we should change to Theocracy immediately now that Economics is far away.

Been playing with a Combat Odds calculator.
With a city at 0% culture, a CR2 Grenadier has a 52.5% chance versus a LB with a 25% fortification bonus, if this thing is correct. With the LB at strength 4, the CR2 Gren has an 85.7% chance to win.

This sounds odd to me. A strength 12 grenadier should have better odds against the strength 6 longbow than a sword (str. 6) against an archer (str. 3)

If he has the Gold, yes. It will be far cheaper for him to upgrade than for us!

Yes, we probably shouldn't ask for all his gold then.

I agree as long as we have the strength to do so effectively.

That's exactly why I want us to discuss and set a goal for our initial stack and the attack on NY. Having a clear goal will make it easier for Gator to decide when to attack and it will focus our efforts to build this stack.

While I agree with most of this, the key to swift victory is in producing Artillery! The faster we get there the faster we will clean up the map. If getting Physics first will speed us to Artillery, then that is where I would like to go.

Artillery requires both Steel and Physics so researching Physics first doesn't speed it up.

BTW, I was just running some numbers on if the observatory was worth building. At current commerce levels where we make 154 bpt before modifiers and counting both Asoka's universities, we're just shy of 850 bpt (real number @ 847). There are times when an observatory would shave a single turn off the rate but overall it did not make a big difference. Asoka's increase should outweigh gains we can make.

I suspected that it was too late for that by now. So the conclusion must be that the only buildings that are worth the hammers invested are Heroic Epic and Globe (+Theater).

 

[leif erikson]

Artillery requires both Steel and Physics so researching Physics first doesn't speed it up.

This does depend upon how we use Great People. Physics first, giving us another Great Scientist, would allow the use of two on Chemistry. However, I will admit that it may bite us in the end as we may need that Scientist to build the Academy in Cuzco for cultural expansion. Not sure what the risk/reward is on this nor how to calculate it.

Wish we had some experience with Asoka to see what his first build will be in conquered cities...

 

[Mad Professor]

Wish we had some experience with Asoka to see what his first build will be in conquered cities...

The quickest way to get such experience might be to... Ah no. That won't work. I was going to suggest taking SCT's test and taking to it with the world builder to make a PA with Asoka, but I remember he was on the other continent. The only other route I can think of is constructing a game so that Asoka is on your continent and going hell or high water to PA with him and see what he does...

Otherwise we just have to hope he's like Capac. He certainly was fond of theatres...

 

[Mad Professor]

So the conclusion must be that the only buildings that are worth the hammers invested are Heroic Epic and Globe (+Theater).

Yes. Globe and HE along with piles of military units for a while.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Though I'm anxious to get the fighting started, Having looked at the save again, a little patience and initial defensive tactics seem wise. If I had the mouse, here is the approach I'd take:

This turn:

move an axe out of the city and fortifiy him on Asoka's gold (to be gifted one turn after war declared).

move both workers home to pre-chop forests for HE

move mace home to heal

move cat and chok home, with chok fortified immediately on silver -- one of the four tiles (marble, furs, silver, and deer) that we need to defend because Wash can reach them on the first turn of war and they would provide him with a defensive bonus

move a 4/5 archer into the city to free our other axe to help defend Asoka's gold

move two other archers home, upgrade to choks, and fortify on fur and deer

move most of other archers home to help with initial defense (may want to upgrade one or two to choks, even though that's inefficient), a couple can be positioned for possible gifting to Asoka

Revolt to Theo and Caste (a citizen on a mined hill will generate 10 hammers under HE, which over ten turns is more than twice what he will yield as a sacrifice, so Slavery would seem about to go obsolete)

Build Stategy:

It's preferable to build units after HE, and therefore preferable to build a theater and the Globe before HE. (I know Globe prevents needed unit builds, but now is the least disruptive opportunity, and we can probably time it to come in just as we are able to start HE.) So I'd advocate theater after revolt, allowing other axe to move south immediately (he'll need to be replaced by an archer when growth occurs), then a mace (to be fortified on the marble) and a cat (the minimum we need before declaring war), and Globe.

Research:

Switch to Chemistry and use the GS, but with one turn left switch back to Physics until the turn after war is declared -- and we have hopefully suckered Wash into attacking us on the tiles we intentionally leave undefended and perhaps with an archer tethered as bait to assure a victory for our 9/10 mace (hopefully healed or close to it). Then we switch back to Chemistry so we can begin to upgrade to grenadiers.

Other thoughts:

We will have difficulty defending both silvers, but getting the Globe will mitigate this.

If necessary, we probably want to sign cease fires, rather than peace treaties, to keep Asoka from pillaging future land holdings or losing units or marching units away from the city we're attacking.

We will be able to get a little additional gold by trading techs for gold.

I'd suggest we set a limit on how much gold Asoka needs to have on hand and then consistently ask for anything above that. Does anyone know how much it costs him to upgrade an archer to a grenadier?

Let's not ask Asoka to attack Washington until we are in a position to weaken it severely. NY, we should be able to go after sooner, but not sure we don't want to assure that we are the ones to get the gold from razing.

 

[Frederiksberg]

move mace home to heal

I suggest we move him to south of India and let him heal there. He can also be upgraded in Indian territory. This would be faster.

move cat and chok home, with chok fortified immediately on silver

I think we should consider moving our guerilla 2 promoted archer from Cuzco to the silver hill and fortify and upgrade him to chok.

Revolt to Theo and Caste (a citizen on a mined hill will generate 10 hammers under HE, which over ten turns is more than twice what he will yield as a sacrifice, so Slavery would seem about to go obsolete)

Slavery is by no means obsolete. It can be useful in emergencies and in a later phase of the game when we are done with research we might want to whip units. I would say that Caste is of less use than slavery since we can hire up to 5 scientists and when the Globe is built we can also hire up to 5 artists.

It's preferable to build units after HE, and therefore preferable to build a theater and the Globe before HE. (I know Globe prevents needed unit builds, but now is the least disruptive opportunity, and we can probably time it to come in just as we are able to start HE.)

It's true that units built before the HE are more expensive but I think we need them to get started with the war as early as possible. If we build Theater and Globe first it will delay the start of the war by around 9 turns. We can keep Beijing happy for a long time if we use our archers as MP's (we have 11 and no money to upgrade them anyway). It's even possible that we will never need the Globe. I think loosing 9 turns is a lot - in the last game we would have gotten silver if we could have improved by 9 turns.

Research:
Switch to Chemistry and use the GS, but with one turn left switch back to Physics until the turn after war is declared -- and we have hopefully suckered Wash into attacking us on the tiles we intentionally leave undefended and perhaps with an archer tethered as bait to assure a victory for our 9/10 mace (hopefully healed or close to it). Then we switch back to Chemistry so we can begin to upgrade to grenadiers.

This is not possible. In this moment we have the option of redirecting the beakers Asoka has been accumulating for some tech (or so it seems) and it looks like he has around 6000 beakers available. So Chemistry will be researched in one turn even with us revolting to Theocracy. The overflow will carry over to the next tech, Steel and I would expect it to be finalized in 4 turns. If we move home our 9/10 mace he will be healed in 11-12 turns. Would suggest to build a medic archer next turn that can meet him in India and heal him.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I guess the essence of my proposal is to use our archers as MP's for the moment and then build the Globe at a later stage when (if) we get enough gold to upgrade them. This will have the advantage that when we later build the Globe we will still get reinforcements of grenadiers upgraded from the archers that are now liberated from MP duty. So there won't be any time when the stream of reinforcements comes to a halt.

If it turns out that we must build the Globe later what are we missing out on? Supposing that we have the Heroic Epic we could have built 4 artillery in the time it takes to build the Globe and two of them would be "extra" units due to the HE. Do we really think that we can regain the 9 turns lost by delaying the war by having these "extra" 2 artillery units? I doubt this.

 

[leif erikson]

Interesting discussion.

Fred is right about beakers and research and excess beakers. So I think we revolt to Theocracy this turn and set research to Chemistry and follow it with Steel. I think it is our best bet given that we must retain a Scientist for Cultural expansion of Cuzco.

Looking at the save, I also see that nearly all of Washington's offensive troops have been spent on the Incans. We should not give him time to rebuild too many.
EDIT - I think CP is right that we should sign Cease Fire deals with both the Mongols and Incans this turn.

I think we should plan to take and raze New York on the first turn of the war. Thus we need to have enough Cats to take culture to zero plus units to take the Cats and LB's stationed there. Then we can go on to Washington.

I think CP is right that we can gain some gold through trade, over 300, by selling techs.

Waiting on Globe is a bit risky, but I think it is doable. As War Weariness is tabulated with each civ and goes away once the Civ is destroyed, we'll just have to be swift in our attack, using as much force as we can muster, and end it as soon as we can. Hope Asoka is on with that!!

Builds:
Medic Archer, Theater, enough Cats to take on New York (1 turn per Cat), and a couple of Maces (3 turns for 2 Maces). Then I think we are ready to start with Washington? I think that wish list will require about 9 or 10 turns.
EDIT2 - Just realized this won't work either as once we have Steel, no more Cats.

We can upgrade several Maces to Grens and perhaps one Archer (the Medic?) plus a couple of Archers (Guerilla 2?) to either Cho-Ko-Nu or Gren (if gold available).

I think rushing into war with Washington may be costly in terms of turns as well...

 

[DJMGator13]

Most wars should be short once we get our troops amassed, with each target only having 2 or 3 cities. So signing some cease fires should help.

Globe doesn't have to be built in 1 complete cycle. We can work it for a few turns then go back to units then go back and add a few more turns to it. Then if WW becomes a problem faster than expected it is already partially built.

 

[ShannonCT]

Agree with plans to revolt to Theocracy this turn (I don't see any use for Caste System right now). I'd like to see a cat or two built afterwards so we have the firepower to take down NY's defenses. Medic isn't needed until the war starts. Theater can be slipped in anytime we need 1 happiness. I agree Globe can be postponed until we have enough cash to upgrade archers/axemen to grens/rifles. Maybe we wont need it at all if wars are quick and we can get our whales back. Or we could demand whales and ivory from Asoka. He has plenty surplus happiness right now. And with fur, ivory, silk, and whales in our hands, a market would give four more happiness at a hammer cost of about half of theater/Globe.

Agree on going for Chem-Steel-Physics in that order. 1 GS can go toward Physics and the free one from Physics should be saved for an Academy where we need culture. Delays in research will be made up for in faster border pops.

For money, we can take all of Asoka's. He'll restock his coffers immediately after and be able to upgrade those archers in a timely fashion. There are some AI that will give us cash for our map. Also, try asking our good friends for cash gifts (except for anyone who we will be going to war with in the next 10 turns).

 

[Frederiksberg]

I'd like to see a cat or two built afterwards so we have the firepower to take down NY's defenses. Medic isn't needed until the war starts.

Yes, I think that's the way to go! Let's build some cheap cats before they go obsolete. I don't think we are allowed to build the archer currently in the production line anyway because we now know feudalism so I would rather build a cat than a longbow. We could give the medic promotion to one of the cats.

Theater can be slipped in anytime we need 1 happiness.

Yes, lets go all in for units for a while until we have the stack we need to take NY. Any suggestions on composition? Maybe 4-5 cats and 3-4 grens (upgraded from CR2 maces). That would mean building 3-4 cats and 2-3 maces. Should take around 10 turns or less.

 

[leif erikson]

Agree on going for Chem-Steel-Physics in that order. 1 GS can go toward Physics and the free one from Physics should be saved for an Academy where we need culture. Delays in research will be made up for in faster border pops.

Yes, this sounds like the best way to go.

For money, we can take all of Asoka's. He'll restock his coffers immediately after and be able to upgrade those archers in a timely fashion. There are some AI that will give us cash for our map. Also, try asking our good friends for cash gifts (except for anyone who we will be going to war with in the next 10 turns).

What I was concerned about was where that gold would come from. He is currently producing zero GPT. If he drops his research rate to replenish his gold supply, then that slows Steel at least. Is there any kind of threshold where he would maintain his research rate and not worry about gold?

Once he starts taking cities, gold will not be an issue.

Yes, lets go all in for units for a while until we have the stack we need to take NY. Any suggestions on composition? Maybe 4-5 cats and 3-4 grens (upgraded from CR2 maces). That would mean building 3-4 cats and 2-3 maces. Should take around 10 turns or less.

I agree. I think 4 Cats and a Cannon (upgraded Cat, if we can afford this) along with 3 CR2 Grens and a CBT1/Medic Gren (which can be built last, after we begin the war even). I think we will need to have some Cho-Ko-Nu's on hand to clean up the Cats, but we have some already. Then we should be ready to roll.

Just a word that we need to really keep an eye on WW. It seems to come quickly at Deity, which I didn't expect. It caught me off guard in the test game ('cause I don't play much deity )

 

[Cactus Pete]

I suggest we move him to south of India and let him heal there. He can also be upgraded in Indian territory. This would be faster. My thought was that in our territory he would be available to get a promotion a few turns earlier by taking on a unit Wash sends to pillage (and bulding HE ASAP would seem optimal), but there's a decent chance Wash will send units into India as well.

I think we should consider moving our guerilla 2 promoted archer from Cuzco to the silver hill and fortify and upgrade him to chok. Like that.

Slavery is by no means obsolete. It can be useful in emergencies and in a later phase of the game when we are done with research we might want to whip units. I would say that Caste is of less use than slavery since we can hire up to 5 scientists and when the Globe is built we can also hire up to 5 artists. Good points. What about getting Asoka into Caste? Would he be likely to use artist specialists to expand his cities?

It's true that units built before the HE are much more expensive but I think we need them to get started with the war as early as possible. If we build Theater and Globe first it will delay the start of the war by around 9 turns (seven). We can keep Beijing happy for a long time if we use our archers as MP's (we have 11 and no money How so? Don't we have 400+ gold with more available both now and on an ongoing basis?to upgrade them anyway This is the crux of the argument to me. The Globe frees four units to be upgraded to grenadiers, and we can't build four faster than we can build the Globe. At worst, we would have four more units to gift to Asoka, but with razing NY, trading techs and maps, and soliciting from Asoka, I expect we will be able to upgrade most if not all our 4/5 archers fairly soon. Building the Globe will delay the war's start, but it's not clear to me that it will delay the time at which we have done away with both Wash and Lizzie. ). It's even possible that we will never need the Globe. I think loosing 9 turns is a lot - in the last game we would have gotten silver if we could have improved by 9 turns. Acquiring four more units (not to mention freedom from happiness problems) is not the equivalent of losing turns.

This is not possible. In this moment we have the option of redirecting the beakers Asoka has been accumulating for some tech (or so it seems) and it looks like he has around 6000 beakers available. So Chemistry will be researched in one turn even with us revolting to Theocracy. The overflow will carry over to the next tech, Steel and I would expect it to be finalized in 4 turns. If we move home our 9/10 mace he will be healed in 11-12 turns. Would suggest to build a medic archer next turn that can meet him in India and heal him.

Looks like I got this wrong. Let's go ahead and research Chem, which means our next build should probably be a mace.

Can't build medic archer, but we certainly do need to look to create a medic early on

 

[Cactus Pete]

I guess the essence of my proposal is to use our archers as MP's for the moment and then build the Globe at a later stage when (if) we get enough gold to upgrade them. This will have the advantage that when we later build the Globe we will still get reinforcements of grenadiers upgraded from the archers that are now liberated from MP duty. So there won't be any time when the stream of reinforcements comes to a halt. That's certainly a reasonable alternative, but I'm arguing that we should be building Globe before we have HE because units are more expensive now, so now is more cost effective for theater and Globe.

If it turns out that we must build the Globe later what are we missing out on? Efficiency Supposing that we have the Heroic Epic we could have built 4 artillery in the time it takes to build the Globe and two of them would be "extra" units due to the HE. Not arguing that once we have the HE, it's not clearly optimal to build units rather than theater and GlobeDo we really think that we can regain the 9 turns lost by delaying the war by having these "extra" 2 artillery units? QUOTE] This is not a fair statement of the difference.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Globe doesn't have to be built in 1 complete cycle. We can work it for a few turns then go back to units then go back and add a few more turns to it. Then if WW becomes a problem faster than expected it is already partially built.

Partial build of Globe would be a temporary waste of those turns. I think it should be all or none. Better to build cats.

 

[Cactus Pete]

a market would give four more happiness at a hammer cost of about half of theater/Globe. Interesting . . . so a market at half the cost (only three turns?) would allow four units to be freed up for upgrading and use. If so, we should seriously consider building a market before HE as an option.

Agree on going for Chem-Steel-Physics in that order. 1 GS can go toward Physics and the free one from Physics should be saved for an Academy where we need culture. Delays in research will be made up for in faster border pops. Concur

For money, we can take all of Asoka's. He'll restock his coffers immediately after and be able to upgrade those archers in a timely fashion. There are some AI that will give us cash for our map. Also, try asking our good friends for cash gifts (except for anyone who we will be going to war with in the next 10 turns).

Like all this very much, and the availability of gold argues for the Globe or a market.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Yes, I think that's the way to go! Let's build some cheap cats before they go obsolete. How about a mace (for a 2CR genadier) before we get Chemistry.

Yes, lets go all in for units for a while until we have the stack we need to take NY. Any suggestions on composition? Maybe 4-5 cats and 3-4 grens (upgraded from CR2 maces). That would mean building 3-4 cats and 2-3 maces. Should take around 10 turns or less.

Don't think we will be able to build maces once we have Chem.