SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Mad Professor]

Murky's spike on the Power graph mirrors the spike that Unusal Suspects got, a 20 point jump in power point in less than 5 turns. They both must have signed their PA's. Our graph should make the same jump in power points.

Maybe, but I doubt it. I'd love to know how they got communism by 300BC if they have. The power spike could be a result of several upgrades (eg archer to lbow) all at once. The score is rather good as well though. Hmmm. It's not above ours at the same date though. Anyhow - gazing at that and trying to second guess what they're doing is worse than fog gazing.

At the very least their score graph indicates excellent progress, so we have no time to spare.

 

[Mad Professor]

OK. Time to get myself a cold Coopers Ale, and play a few more turns... I'll post a report later of wherever I get to.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Remember US gives 1 hammer to each town, and we'll have mostly towns in 30 turns. A workshop is worth 2 more base hammers than a town under US, and 9 less gold. Then there's the lost trade route for being in State Property instead of Free Market. Workshops are still more productive, but not by a lot. And towns are more versatile if we decide we need more techs (Assembly Line? Biology?).

In 30 turns we will have 4 towns. As far as I can see a Town is yielding 6 gold because we can't use Free Speech as it means giving up Bureaucracy. 6 gold means two hammers when cash rushing while the 2 extra base hammers from a work shop means 2 x 2.75= 5.5 hammers. That's 3.5 hammer more - a quite significant difference when you multiply by 7. An extra trade route is only 2-3 hammers.

At the very least their score graph indicates excellent progress, so we have no time to spare.

Yes, as expected Murky Waters are doing well and so are the surprise team, Misfits. It's doubtful though that MW can get to Communism and PA 29 turns faster than us since we have been doing quite well also.

 

[Mad Professor]

Now it’s time for another cold Coopers ale and to write a report. I’ve played another 4 turns, and things went (more or less) to schedule though I had one surprise… Anyhow – more on that in a minute.

I open the file, it’s T138, 560AD
Before ending the turn, I:
Upgrade 1 archer in Beijing to lbow
Place a G1 archer on marble hill
Sell Liberalism to Cathy for 50 gold
Sell our map to Monty for 20 gold
Place a combat 1 archer in forest south of Beijing near Silver.
End turn

IBT:
Washington asks for the gift of Astronomy. I refuse!
Beijing finishes cat, starts another
Washington now has 1 musket in NY and Washington.

T139 580AD
Move 2nd lbow to silver hill
Promote new cat to medic
Asoka starts on University in Delhi and Observatory in Bombay. Both cities starving and shrinking.
Asoka has frigate, galleon with 2 grens and cat near Medina
Swap study back to Steel
Ask Asoka to do the same, he agrees. 1 turn to Steel

IBT:
We get Steel
Cat in B. does not complete! I expected it would complete, but I was wrong! It now says a canon will complete in 2 turns. Not good enough! I can rescue this situation though with micromanagement – see below.
Asoka upgrades all his cats to canons
Saladin completes the Taj Mahal and starts golden age
Mansa adopts serfdom and vassalage
Stack in Washington is kinda large

T140 600AD
I can MM Beijing to starve (using food in storage) this turn so Canon completes in just one turn. That will take all hammer tiles and one engineer for one turn. This means war will not be delayed as I was going to do upgrades this turn and attack next turn anyway.
Upgrade 3 cats to canons for 600 gold
Upgrade axe in Beijing to gren for 215 gold – might need something behind the lines for mopup of counter attacks by Washington.
Switch to Physics. 5 turns.
Start a worker on a workshop 1 tile north of Beijing.

IBT:
Washington completes a second musket in Washington
Beijing finishes the canon, starts on Theatre
Monty starts a golden age
Asoka now the most powerful player in the game
Asoka WE and Liz pike and xbow killed north of Sparta
Asoka’s frigate, galleon with 2 grens and cat now near Pasargadae – he’s definitely headed for Greece like I thought
Delhi is still shrinking

T141 620AD
Micromanage Beijing back to slow growth (1 food/turn). Theatre will take 2 turns
DW on Washington
Bombard NY with 3 canons and medic cat. It’s down to 3%
Attack NY with new CR1 canon from Beijing vs lbow at 87.5%
We win, canon is down to 6.2 strength, has 8XP and can be promoted
All units in NY are wounded
Give axe in Bombay to Asoka. I reckon Washington will go that way out of Washington. Either that or waste units on our lbows on the silver hill. I wish! I think he’ll go for easier targets in India though.
We have 1 unhappy for “fighting brothers and sisters in the faith” Beijing at 22 happy, 19 unhappy
Sell our map to Capac for 40 gold

IBT:
American musket from NY attacks archer in forest south of Beijing near silver hill and wins
Nice to get that one out of NY!
Musket down to 6.5 strength, and cat joins him
A whole bunch of units (not sure exactly how many, I didn’t see the battles) move east from Washington into India (as I expected) choosing not to take on our lbows on the silver hill. 2 muskets that were in Washington have disappeared. I presume they are dead in India. Asoka has attacked American units near Bombay because there are wounded units in Bombay. That’s where the muskets died I think. Asoka has killed at least 4 American units I think. Now there are 2 lbows + a cat + 2 wounded cats in India near Bombay.
NY is left with 1 lbow and 4 cats all full strength. Should be easy to knock over.
Fred now has banking as well, but like Liz and Cyrus, he won’t trade it.
Asoka’s frigate, galleon with 2 grens and cat now near Susa still heading for Greece.

T142 640AD
Attack NY lbow with canon. Win
Attack NY cat with canon. Win
Attack NY cat with canon. Win without a scratch
Attack NY cat with CR2 gren. Win without a scratch. Gren now has 10XP
HE is not immediately available. Maybe need to end turn first?
Attack NY with CR2 canon. Win. Now has 9XP
NY is razed. We get a worker, and claim American tiles immediately.
Attack wounded musket in forest south of Beijing with gren from near NY @ 85.1% and win
Attack cat in forest south of Beijing with gren from Beijing. Win.
Alex will now talk, and will give peace for 30 gold if we want it…?

That’s it. I could play some more turns tomorrow night (starting about 21 hours from now) but maybe I should wait longer for further discussion first…? Let me know what you think. The next priority is to get our units in good shape medically, and march them on Washington to soften it up for Asoka. Asoka will not send a force capable of taking Washington while those American units are in India, but it looks like he can deal with those this coming turn, so I'm fairly optimistic of wiping America off the map in fairly good time.

Here's a copy of the latest save for you to look at:

View attachment SGOTM07 AD-0640.Civ4SavedGame

 

[leif erikson]

Looking good MP!!

Getting everyone healed and moving towards Washington is a priority.

After the turn changes and you can upgrade the Gren, Heroic Epic should be visible. Both workers are ready to move and chop.
That American LB herding Cattle may be a problem to keep an eye on?

We can pick up a 50 Gold each from Hattie and Julius and 30 each from Mansa and Fred in trade if we wish?

Need to be careful of Asoka as he is now down to 80% research.

Asoka seems to be holding his own against the units sent into his territory. The problem now is if his Towns get pillaged, but there isn't much we can do atm. The most help we can give him is to get to Washington and get it prepped for his attack.

So we build Theater, HE and then some more Cannons? Beline research for Artillery! Keep up the good work. That Coopers seems to do wonders, have to see if I can find any here...

 

[Mad Professor]

After the turn changes and you can upgrade the Gren, Heroic Epic should be visible. Both workers are ready to move and chop.

OK. Then next turn I'll select something to build at the beginning of the turn (doesn't matter what) but as soon as I promote the gren with 10XP, I'll change the build to HE. We now have 3 workers because we captured one from Washington when we took NY, and certainly, 2 of them will move to forests to chop the HE next turn. Then we can really start smoking when it comes to military units...

That American LB herding Cattle may be a problem to keep an eye on?

Knowing the way the AI usually thinks, that lbow will probably still sit there herding cattle since he's still in American territory. We may get away with just ignoring him. Might be good to have a contingency plan though in case he moves into our territory. Don't want him plundering anything, unless it's the ruins of New York...

We can pick up a 50 Gold each from Hattie and Julius and 30 each from Mansa and Fred in trade if we wish?

I'll have a look at what will coax that money out of them when I next open the file. We're going at about -14gpt at the moment so we need to keep topping up the cash box from time to time.

Asoka seems to be holding his own against the units sent into his territory. The problem now is if his Towns get pillaged, but there isn't much we can do atm. The most help we can give him is to get to Washington and get it prepped for his attack.

I expect to see all those American units in India dead next turn. If I'd been playing India, those wounded cats would already be dead, but I'm not... Hopefully he'll take them out IBT coming up. That foray into India has greatly reduced the stack in Washington which is nice.

So we build Theater, HE and then some more Cannons? Beline research for Artillery! Keep up the good work. That Coopers seems to do wonders, have to see if I can find any here...

Yes, finish Theatre, build HE, then pop out more canons. Continue research on Physics, so a little sidestep with one turn remaining so we get the GS and not Asoka, and then beeline for Artillery. The possibilities of tradiing for Banking are not looking particularly good at the moment. Hopefully it will become available for trade in the next five turns. If it does, I'll snap it up straight away to shorten the route to Artillery. Otherwise we'll just have to study it ourselves.

As for the Coopers, it's a good drop. Brewed in Adelaide, South Australia - it was their Sparkling Ale I was drinking tonight - they do another ale as well as a stout. People in Melbourne fortunately are civilised enough to demand it so it's available here as well - beer drinking in Australia is quite parochial according to state, so to have a South Australian beer appreciated in Melbourne says something. I don't know if it makes journeys beyond Australia's shores - let me know if you do find it though. I'd be interested.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Well done improvising when the cat was changed to cannon! I think I can guess the explanation for this behavior: It must have been Asoka's beakers that finished Steel and that meant that we already had Steel when it became our turn and as a consequence the build was changed from the obsolete cat to cannon.

The Greek war has really backfired and Greek galleys are starving down Delhi (has already lost 3 pop) so I think we should make peace and get 30 gold for it!

 

[ShannonCT]

Good work so far MP.

We should get all of our attack forces together on our marble hill so they can heal and get to Washington two turns after healing.

HE takes a Level 4 unit and we will have that as soon as the 10/10 Gren promotes. So it's HE next turn and then lots of cannons. Chop all 3 forests now. How to use our new cash? Maybe an archer -> gren?

I think it would be a good time to make peace with Alex. Asoka is really being distracted by that war. Peace treaty should be fine since it should be a bit more than 10 turns before we can finish off America and England. Peace Treaty gets us 30 gold.

As for the Coopers, it's a good drop. ... I don't know if it makes journeys beyond Australia's shores - let me know if you do find it though. I'd be interested.

As the self-proclaimed beer expert of the team, I can tell you Coopers is exported to the US. I'm not sure if it's available in Massachusetts, Leif, but I've seen it in Connecticut, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. It's mostly at serious beer stores. You wont find it at a supermarket. It's not mass-exported like Fosters, the Australian beer no Australian drinks.

 

[ShannonCT]

In 30 turns we will have 4 towns. As far as I can see a Town is yielding 6 gold because we can't use Free Speech as it means giving up Bureaucracy. 6 gold means two hammers when cash rushing while the 2 extra base hammers from a work shop means 2 x 2.75= 5.5 hammers. That's 3.5 hammer more - a quite significant difference when you multiply by 7. An extra trade route is only 2-3 hammers.

Remember bureaucracy turns 6 commerce into 9 gold. And by the time we get to Assembly Line, we'll have 7 towns.

 

[Mad Professor]

I think it would be a good time to make peace with Alex. Asoka is really being distracted by that war. Peace treaty should be fine since it should be a bit more than 10 turns before we can finish off America and England. Peace Treaty gets us 30 gold.

Yes, that war is hurting India a bit with those galleys near Delhi. Getting peace would also be my recommendation. I don't think there is anything positive that can come out of continuing in war against Alex, except encouraging Liz to continue longer - that we do want. Hopefully with her success at Athens though, she will stay at war with him longer yet.

As the self-proclaimed beer expert of the team, I can tell you Coopers is exported to the US. I'm not sure if it's available in Massachusetts, Leif, but I've seen it in Connecticut, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, and Rhode Island. It's mostly at serious beer stores. You wont find it at a supermarket.

Good to know! The Pale Ale has a green label here in Aus while the sparkling ale has a red label. The stout has a yellow one.

It's not mass-exported like Fosters, the Australian beer no Australian drinks.

Urghh. And no wonder. OK. it's an exaggeration to say no Australian drinks it (there would no doubt be quite a crowd here in Foster's home town of Melbourne who would swear by it), but there are many much better beers in Australia than that one IMHO...

I'm off to bed. "Talk" with you lot again tomorrow.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Remember bureaucracy turns 6 commerce into 9 gold. And by the time we get to Assembly Line, we'll have 7 towns.

Well I already used 7 towns in my example. And it's correct that the difference in hammers per turn is 2.5 x 7 = 17.5 hpt. So around 15 hpt better if we account for a missing trade route. My question is if the flexibility of having the option of researching to Assembly line is worth the loss of these hammers. If we do tech to Ass. Line we don't get the gold converted to hammers so we would have a lot less artillery units available during this time. There could also be some "technical" problem with using both cash rushing and slavery due to the penalty on rushing a unit that has no hammers invested yet. So the impact of having to do both could actually cause some extra delays compared to having the hammers as "ordinary" base hammers.

Under all circumstances I see no harm in using some worker turns in preparation for this and then we can discuss again later when we have more knowledge of how the war is progressing.

 

[rrau]

Nice job so far! Keep up the good work

 

[leif erikson]

Knowing the way the AI usually thinks, that lbow will probably still sit there herding cattle since he's still in American territory. We may get away with just ignoring him. Might be good to have a contingency plan though in case he moves into our territory. Don't want him plundering anything, unless it's the ruins of New York...

Our Deer forest is next door. I am more worried about our Worker going there to finish the chop for HE and the possibility that the LB may snatch him.

As for the Coopers, it's a good drop. Brewed in Adelaide, South Australia - it was their Sparkling Ale I was drinking tonight - they do another ale as well as a stout. People in Melbourne fortunately are civilised enough to demand it so it's available here as well - beer drinking in Australia is quite parochial according to state, so to have a South Australian beer appreciated in Melbourne says something. I don't know if it makes journeys beyond Australia's shores - let me know if you do find it though. I'd be interested.

My radar is up and I'm on a mission to find some...
Don't tell my wife.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I suggest that we collect the medic cat and all our cannons and grenadiers on the deer tile for 1-2 turns of healing. We can reach a tile adjacent to Washington in one turn from there. And at the same time we protect the worker that is going to chop the forest. We can also chop the extra forest we got now to speed along those cannons. Maybe use a grenadier that need a little XP to kill the longbow on the cow tile and earn a promo.

We can do a copper for 4gpt deal with Cathy and after we have built the HE stay on the lookout for a deal where we can get some gpt for our marble.

And don't forget to keep some gold in reserve to upgrade our caravel to frigate. We will need some naval protection before we declare on Elisabeth.

 

[DJMGator13]

We need 1 more civ on our continent to learn Banking and then Fred should be willing to trade it to us for Divine Right.

For a trade with Liz it will take 6 known AI.

Cyrus is close. He only requires it be known by 3 others, but he doesn't known Fred. So he wants 2 more people to learn it.

Tech trading for monopoly techs becomes much harder when both continents know each other. Fred is our best bet but that is only if someone else learns it on our continent before we eliminate Liz.

 

[leif erikson]

I suggest that we collect the medic cat and all our cannons and grenadiers on the deer tile for 1-2 turns of healing. We can reach a tile adjacent to Washington in one turn from there. And at the same time we protect the worker that is going to chop the forest. We can also chop the extra forest we got now to speed along those cannons. Maybe use a grenadier that need a little XP to kill the longbow on the cow tile and earn a promo.

This is a good plan!

There are 6 LB's in Washington and this means we may need a few more units to wear it down a bit. Instead of upgrading Archers to Grens, perhaps we should consider upgrading a couple of Archers to Cho-Ko-Nu's. They provide collateral damage should we need it. Even more important, they can be upgraded to Grens, where LB's cannot, only to Rifles. And the upgrade is nearly half the cost of Grens. They could give us some additional firepower!

If we haven't yet, we should consider asking Asoka to attack Washington (city) once our units have healed. It is only a hop, step and jump. We need to cut Washington's units down good as Asoka must attack across a river.

And don't forget to keep some gold in reserve to upgrade our caravel to frigate. We will need some naval protection before we declare on Elisabeth.

What other units will we need to visit Lizzie? Should we have a recon unit ready to take a tour once we begin the assault on Washington (city)?

We need 1 more civ on our continent to learn Banking and then Fred should be willing to trade it to us for Divine Right.

Let's hoipe someone does soon. Is there anything else we can do to influence this? It may be a 1 or two turn research project otherwise?

Tech trading for monopoly techs becomes much harder when both continents know each other. Fred is our best bet but that is only if someone else learns it on our continent before we eliminate Liz.

Why is this? Wouldn't we have a greater chance of enough civs knowing a tech and making it available for trade? Or is it by percentage?

Yes, let's end the war with Alex! Dumb Asoka...

Continued good luck MP!!

 

[Cactus Pete]

MP has certainly coordinated things well. After looking at the save and reading the post-save thread, it's a simpler situation than I anticipated. Quick thoughts:

A cease fire with Alex would allow us to start bombarding with a frigate even before we finish off England.

Asoka has marble, so we can go ahead and trade marble.

There's no reason not to go ahead and lay seige to Washington with the whole cannon and one of the wounded bombard ones, plus two grenadiers, while the rest of our units heal on the deer. We can get there in two turns, and at that point ask Asoka to assist us (not too soon, since we don't want him losing units across a river (as leif points out) against culturally defended cities.

Move a longbow(s) on the silver into the city to combat WW if needed, once we start fighting Wash again.

Trading monopoly techs is based on a percentage.

Once chopping is completed, or almost so, we can send a worker to scout England.

It's going to be a long time before we have artillery and can upgrade cannons, so suggest we build a grenadier next and look to promote it to star/gunpowder when needed for use outside cities. We presently lack units well trained for that work.

 

[DJMGator13]

This is a good plan!


Why is this? Wouldn't we have a greater chance of enough civs knowing a tech and making it available for trade? Or is it by percentage?

As CP has said it is by percentage. With 16 known civs and a 30% average, monopoly techs have to be known by 5 other civs before they become tradeable.

Right now, full contact has not been made by everyone in the game. So some AIs are still working off known civs numbers around 10.

Yes, let's end the war with Alex! Dumb Asoka...

And then ask Asoka to attack Washington (the city). Need to entice him to land those units.

I should hopefully be able to check in tomorrow night before heading out of town. If not good luck and keep up the good work.

 

[Mad Professor]

Thanks for the various comments.

I'll begin playing some more turns in about six hours time thereabouts.

Re upgrading the caravel, it also needs to be in our own territory. That needs to be arranged. I was using it to spy on the Liz vs Alex war. How much gold needed for that?

I'll look for some gpt from copper and marble.

WW will be an issue. We have a margin of 3 happies over unhappies at the moment and that will be wiped out by the first twitch of WW... CP's suggestion of moving the lbows back to Beijing might help there especially if I follow Leif's archer to chok idea. (Which has merit too) I'll do the sums carefully when I start playing again.

I'll look to scout England ASAP. With a worker, hopefully not getting it nabbed by Washington's troops? I'll be careful with that. Since we just captured a worker, we have a bit more room there. The forests can be chopped in one turn and we still have a worker free.

The general direction is clear though - peace with Alex one way or the other, heal units and start the seige of Washington ASAP. Get Asoka in there. I need to see what Asoka does with Washington's invading units in India this turn.

I'll check here again before starting to play this evening.

 

[Mad Professor]

I'll start playing again shortly. I'll report later tonight.