SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

I can't remember how much Asoka had when I asked for 250. It was over 300 - maybe 330-something? 250/330 is about 75% so when I asked for 250 I was asking for about 75%.

Just reread your log of the time around York. Asoka did do some plundering, but not too much? And the question is whether he plundered because he didn't think he could take York or because he needed cash? I think the most important thing is that he maintained his research rate. When we took all his cash, he reduced his research rate to rebuild some.

Taking the 66% to 75% seems to work from where I sit?

 

[Mad Professor]

Just reread your log of the time around York. Asoka did do some plundering, but not too much? And the question is whether he plundered because he didn't think he could take York or because he needed cash? I think the most important thing is that he maintained his research rate. When we took all his cash, he reduced his research rate to rebuild some.

Taking the 66% to 75% seems to work from where I sit?

Probably. One event in my turnset is hardly a test. The fact is, he couldn't take York that turn so we don't know which. Mind you, not being able to take a city that turn is not usually a reason why an AI won't suicide units on a city, or at least attack. The stronger governing factor for attack city or plunder seems to be strength ratio of attackers to defenders.

I didn't check Asoka tech rate every turn at that point. I know earlier he was doing 100% (with small negative gpt) and afterwards was at 80% with positive gpt, but I don't know exactly when the change was made or why.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Once Artillery is ours, we can guide Asoka to continue on the path to Rocketry while we build Artillery as fast as Beijing will allow.

Rocketry is only one option - another one is Biology if we think we have the military techs we need.

I think we're going to have to suffer a bit of WW lag because I'm not sure it is worth taking the time to build any happiness buildings as we go down the stretch. Once we get to Julius, we could even whip away some of the unhappiness to keep units moving to the field. (unless it affects the population % required for domination?)

We might be able to handle the immediate WW problems with the culture slider. Whipping is not very effective in the transformed Beijing due to caps on hammer overflow. My testing in WB indicate that maximizing base hammers is the best we can do. We can build Globe in just 3 turns with the improved production and that might be worth doing at some point so that we can upgrade our remaining archer MP's.

 

[Mad Professor]

We might be able to handle the immediate WW problems with the culture slider. Whipping is not very effective in the transformed Beijing due to caps on hammer overflow. My testing in WB indicate that maximizing base hammers is the best we can do. We can build Globe in just 3 turns with the improved production and that might be worth doing at some point so that we can upgrade our remaining archer MP's.

Once there's no chance of home Chinese territory coming under serious threat, it becomes the payoff of three turns production for Globe against the extra units we get from upgrading the archer MP's. If we can put five or six archers become grens on the field with money we get from Asoka because we spent three turns building the globe, then it becomes a good deal. As long as Beijing is never actually under threat.

 

[ShannonCT]

Grenadiers can do a decent job against rifles since they get 50% extra strength. And they are relatively cheap. If we find ourselves fighting lot's of rifles we can start building a mix of artillery and grens - in 10 turns it's possible to build 5 artillery and 5 grens in Beijing (after modification). So in the 20 turns it takes to reach Assembly Line we can build 10 artillery and 10 grens with a production modified city and half of that without modifying. That's the equivalent of having an extra 10 unit stack for attack. The SAM infantry have about the same strength against rifles which limits there usefulness but they will, of course be handy for attacking and defending against enemy grenadiers.

I agree that Artillery -> Rocketry and conversion of Beijing to a production city is the best way to go. SAMs aren't quite as good as regular Infantry, but Rocketry is the same beaker cost as Assembly Line (~9500), and AL still requires 5 more prereqs with a total beaker cost of ~14500. So we can get Rocketry at least twice as fast.

SAMs are definitely superior to grenadiers. Grenadiers only attack Rifles with a 50% bonus. They defend with no bonus against Rifles. SAMs might also make Asoka feel more aggressive. They are worth 20 power points each, compared to 16 for Infantry and 10 for Rifles/Grens. (BTW - Artillery are worth 20 power points compared to 8 for cannons.)

 

[Mad Professor]

SAMs are definitely superior to grenadiers. Grenadiers only attack Rifles with a 50% bonus. They defend with no bonus against Rifles. SAMs might also make Asoka feel more aggressive. They are worth 20 power points each, compared to 16 for Infantry and 10 for Rifles/Grens. (BTW - Artillery are worth 20 power points compared to 8 for cannons.)

Anything we can do to make Asoka feel aggressive is good. It's much easier handling an AI PA partner that we have to rush to keep up with in attacking a city than one we have to keep coaxing into battle!

Where is this info about the power points of each unit? I've never noticed it anywhere - then again I've never particularly looked for it either. I did always wonder at the AI's desire to have SAM's when no-one has any air power... I don't usually upgrade Infantry to SAM's even when I have the option for that reason. If they have higher "power" though that would explain whay the AI likes them!

 

[ShannonCT]

Where is this info about the power points of each unit? I've never noticed it anywhere - then again I've never particularly looked for it either.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/demographics.php

The power graph is determined by the number of "soldier" points you have. Soldier points are earned mostly through certain city buildings, techs, and military units. The power graph on the SGOTM results page is in terms of 1000s. And you can check you soldier points in-game in the demographics screen.

 

[Cactus Pete]

SAMs sound good to me, as does maximizing production.

One thought is that, once we have SAMs, we won't need to research anymore and can put the culture slider very high, which may eliminate the need to build the Globe.

 

[Frederiksberg]

One thought is that, once we have SAMs, we won't need to research anymore and can put the culture slider very high, which may eliminate the need to build the Globe.

The Globe does have less merit now that it seems like we won't be whipping or drafting units. Staying at 50% culture (10 ) would cost us around 30-40 gpt which is the equivalent of 10-13 hpt. With a cost of 300 hammers for the Globe we can stay there for 20-30 turns before we reach a break even. Of course the math looks worse if we count beakers, but our assumption is, that we don't need to do more research anyway. This approach looks very feasible indeed - particularly because we don't need to be at 50% culture all the time and can stay flexible depending on the amount of WW.

Regarding the transformation of Beijing I think the right timing is to do it immediately after Artillery is discovered. We can still achieve a decent pace (say 15 turns) to Rocketry with our remaining 300 bpt + another 300 bpt from Asoka and it's not like we desperately need SAM's to continue the attacks. But they would come in handy for the late part of our campaign. That's also the time when we will hopefully have money to upgrade again.

 

[leif erikson]

Looks like we have the longer term worked out pretty well.

I'm a bit more concerned about the short term, especially WW and putting Lizzie out of business while maintaining research rate to Artillery. Is there anything we can do to help our current WW situation. Even better, can we free up an Archer or two for upgrade and transfer to the front lines?

With only London doing most of her production, how quickly can she recover and can she out-produce us?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

When we get Rocketry, we should put the Apollo Program in our build queue to prevent one of Asoka's big cities wasting time building it.

 

[Mad Professor]

When we get Rocketry, we should put the Apollo Program in our build queue to prevent one of Asoka's big cities wasting time building it.

Good point. Let's not forget. And let's not waste any hammers on it ourselves accidentally!

Looks like we have the longer term worked out pretty well.

I'm a bit more concerned about the short term, especially WW and putting Lizzie out of business while maintaining research rate to Artillery. Is there anything we can do to help our current WW situation. Even better, can we free up an Archer or two for upgrade and transfer to the front lines?

With only London doing most of her production, how quickly can she recover and can she out-produce us?

I don't really wnat to find out how quickly she can outproduce us.

A small help to WW is culture at 10% still getting us to Artillery in the same time. WW is going to increase significatnly before we finish of Liz. We can afford a red face or two without great problem - this will cause us to use up food storage and very slightly reduce our beaker output if we make sure it's one of the sea tiles we lose when we get a red face.

We may have to deal with quite a few though - WW went from 4 to 6 in the last turn of my turn set.

For this reason I don't think we can afford to remove units from Beijing. I think we need to judge the move on London to go with when we think the stack in York is healed enough to make the move. We have two full strength units already and as long as Liz doesn't come at us with a bunch of cats (which she won't) or a big stack of units (which I don't think she's got) we should be able to get the stack to London OK. It needs at least two turns healing with the medic, maybe three before moving though. Does our medic help Asoka's units heal too? Good if so, becuase he has a couple of rifles bound for York (I think) which will mean his grens there will be happy to move out in two or three turns too.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Some ideas for the next turn set:

Since Beijing will be stagnant at pop 17 after the suggested transformation to production city I suggest that we MM it now into starvation by moving two citizens off the water tiles and onto the plains hill mine and the plains hill windmill. We can keep it in starvation for 8 turns and then whip the extra citizen away before he starves away. Doing this will allow us to build one cannon each turn with a frigate inserted somewhere. Build order could be cannon - cannon - frigate - cannon - cannon....

Regarding the London attack I think we should split our forces and send the two fully healed cannons and a grenadier towards London to get a head start on the bombarding and to reduce the cultural defenses in case Asoka shows up with his galleon (we could ask him to go to London). 3 turns later most of the remaining units will have healed and they can join for the final attack. The two new cannons coming out of Beijing could form a mini stack with an upgraded archer (sell Drama to Mansa to get enough money and ask for Asokas ivory to keep happiness) that move via the western silver in order to reach London from a route north of the marble hill. London should fall 6 turns from now. Is there a faster way? Use the culture slider if WW gets worse.

 

[Mad Professor]

Regarding the London attack I think we should split our forces and send the two fully healed cannons and a grenadier towards London to get a head start on the bombarding and to reduce the cultural defenses in case Asoka shows up with his galleon (we could ask him to go to London). 3 turns later most of the remaining units will have healed and they can join for the final attack. The two new cannons coming out of Beijing could form a mini stack with an upgraded archer (sell Drama to Mansa to get enough money and ask for Asokas ivory to keep happiness) that move via the western silver in order to reach London from a route north of the marble hill. London should fall 6 turns from now. Is there a faster way? Use the culture slider if WW gets worse.

Bear in mind too that new units can come down from Beijing as we build them. It's two turns from Beijing to York for example, and with the stack in York healing, they will be starting to be joined by new units from Beijing before leaving.

Your idea of sending the full strength units risks being jumped on by a bigger English stack, but I think it's a fair risk - the chances of there being a big English stack are quite small I think.

I think the best way to deal with the WW problem (and there will be one!) is to find absolutely the fastest way to kill off Liz.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I forgot about the wounded longbow. If we attack with the 4/5 gren as CP suggests it can be promoted and have one turn for healing before the canon on the silver catches up. Then hopefully it's close to full strength and can move in a mini stack with the two canons.

I think the best way to deal with the WW problem (and there will be one!) is to find absolutely the fastest way to kill off Liz.

A cease fire after capturing London is another possibility. It could give us a couple of turns with no WW where we can finish research of Artillery while assembling a stack for the attack on Athens.

 

[leif erikson]

Since Beijing will be stagnant at pop 17 after the suggested transformation to production city I suggest that we MM it now into starvation by moving two citizens off the water tiles and onto the plains hill mine and the plains hill windmill. We can keep it in starvation for 8 turns and then whip the extra citizen away before he starves away. Doing this will allow us to build one cannon each turn with a frigate inserted somewhere. Build order could be cannon - cannon - frigate - cannon - cannon....

I think it needs to be Frigate => Cannon => Cannon => Cannon...
We need to protect the sea resources.

Your idea of sending the full strength units risks being jumped on by a bigger English stack, but I think it's a fair risk - the chances of there being a big English stack are quite small I think.

In London, she has two Grens, one a CR1 and the other a CBT1. There are also a Mace and a LB, so she has attackers and defenders. This is in addition to the CBT2 Gren holding the Marble tile. A mini-stack may run into a problem?

The two new cannons coming out of Beijing could form a mini stack with an upgraded archer (sell Drama to Mansa to get enough money and ask for Asokas ivory to keep happiness) that move via the western silver in order to reach London from a route north of the marble hill. London should fall 6 turns from now. Is there a faster way? Use the culture slider if WW gets worse.

I think this is probably the best way, although I am worried about a counter against a smaller stack. But it is time to risk it! We should trade for whatever resources we can get to keep ! The use of the culture slider should not delay the arrival of Artillery, if we can help it.

A cease fire after capturing London is another possibility. It could give us a couple of turns with no WW where we can finish research of Artillery while assembling a stack for the attack on Athens.

Should our mini-stack have problems, should we consider a cease fire until we get Artillery and upgrade some Cannons? Lizzie should be easier to take with Artillery? While a consideration, I hate to waste the time.

I think the best way to deal with the WW problem (and there will be one!) is to find absolutely the fastest way to kill off Liz.

Yes, indeed!

I forgot about the wounded longbow. If we attack with the 4/5 gren as CP suggests it can be promoted and have one turn for healing before the canon on the silver catches up. Then hopefully it's close to full strength and can move in a mini stack with the two canons.

Yes, this looks like the best alternative. We must stay aggressive until/unless Lizzie makes it impossible for us to continue.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think it needs to be Frigate => Cannon => Cannon => Cannon...
We need to protect the sea resources.

The build order depends on our priorities. Postponing the frigate 2 turns brings an extra cannon to the attack of London and the frigate may still be in time to defend the fish and clam depending on what Liz will do next.

We must stay aggressive until/unless Lizzie makes it impossible for us to continue.

Our main concern is WW forcing the tech rate down. There's no way Lizzie can outproduce us when we are building a cannon every turn. I don't think she can build grens faster than one every 3 turns so 6 turns from now there will be no more than 2 additional grens in London.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The build order depends on our priorities. Postponing the frigate 2 turns brings an extra cannon to the attack of London and the frigate may still be in time to defend the fish and clam depending on what Liz will do next. And if Liz sends her armada towards our sea resources IBT?

A cease fire, especially after London's fall, should certainly be an option. If we end up doing that, a galleon to get to Athens quickly would be helpful and of continuing use down the coast.

WW and moving the culture slide is probably going to delay Atillery a turn or two.

 

[ShannonCT]

The build order depends on our priorities. Postponing the frigate 2 turns brings an extra cannon to the attack of London and the frigate may still be in time to defend the fish and clam depending on what Liz will do next.

What I'm more worried about is Lizzy's 3 frigates getting to Beijing. We are getting 16 food from the coast right now, plus 6 health from seafood. If Beijing were to suddenly lose 22 food per turn, it would be devastating. If we build a single frigate right now, we can block access to Beijing with 2 frigates so that Lizzy would have to attack to break through and we'd be getting the defensive bonus. I think we need to move our current frigate out of the range of the 2 frigates in London (so onto our fish), and manage the potential risk in this situation. Betting that Lizzy wont send her frigates to Beijing has too big a downside if we're wrong.

 

[leif erikson]

Betting that Lizzy wont send her frigates to Beijing has too big a downside if we're wrong.

I concur!
Whatever we must do to protect the productivity of Beijing has to be done. We need those Cannons and to complete the research to Artillery. If the rng should fail us, then we may need a third Frigate as well!