SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[culdeus]

There's no circumnav on this map.

If Shaka attacks he'll do it in the next 20 turns. This would be ideal really as we have no critical resources in reach of him and the terrian is setup perfect for a repulsion.

How do we know the cleanup will go in 3 directions. I see second wave from capital coming thru the isthmus and turning south and the main force hitting what looks like something to the northwest (maybe?) and then coming together to mop up whatever he put towards J. With the capital out of the way and the placement of the isthmus city we'll move around fairly easily.

We just need to bait shaka into attacking us in about 10 turns.

 

[culdeus]

There's no circumnav on this map.

If Shaka attacks he'll do it in the next 20 turns. This would be ideal really as we have no critical resources in reach of him and the terrian is setup perfect for a repulsion.

How do we know the cleanup will go in 3 directions. I see second wave from capital coming thru the isthmus and turning south and the main force hitting what looks like something to the northwest (maybe?) and then coming together to mop up whatever he put towards J. With the capital out of the way and the placement of the isthmus city we'll move around fairly easily.

We just need to bait shaka into attacking us in about 10 turns.

 

[BLubmuz]

There's no circumnav on this map.

Are you jocking?

If Shaka attacks he'll do it in the next 20 turns. This would be ideal really as we have no critical resources in reach of him and the terrian is setup perfect for a repulsion. (...)

I never verified the WHEOOHRN, but you're probably right.
Anyway i see only a large stack, with enough defenders left on conquered cities.
We must remember Shaka is aggressive, so his axes are dangerous even for a mace.
But don't worry, i'll fight this war and you know how i am on this

Vote, please!!!

 

[WastinTime]

There is circumnav on this map.

The worst thing that can happen is Shaka attacks us in 10 turns. The war would drag on an extra 10+ turns if it starts before we are ready. We want to take away the rice city on turn 2 of the war.

Parthenon:
I wish someone had played this out to the end (I know I haven't). I'd like to know if we are going to come up short on GE's, or if there's time to get them after IW and other late GE wonders. If we don't get at least 2, we're going to be wishing we worked harder at the Pyra, HG, and Parth. Hopefully the captitol pops one after the Prophet.

Maybe we can trade for Aest after we sail across?

 

[BLubmuz]

@WT
I played it 'til 1400AD, or some.
I built mids, but not the GLH, which came very early in China.
Then i built a lot of wonders (without stone) and i was the big dog when i stopped.

Here is a couple saves by different starts

 

[culdeus]

If we want to ensure no attack by shaka then convert right away. The power delta between us is growing rapidly since about 800BC he's been diverging from us at a considerable rate. Look at the graph. He's going to go after somebody within 10-20 turns.

I personally don't think it matters. Those impis are hopeless and those early BC UUs are great as the AI builds those instead of archers.

 

[berserks01]

I vote a1 and b2.

I like Compass earlier than later. And since Engineering is (or should be) our GE city now that Fifthburg doesn't have the mids, it should build the HG.

 

[BLubmuz]

The question is NOT build the HG in Enginering or in Capital, but:
Build HG in Capital NOW or never, anywhere.
Not because we don't want build them, 'cause someone will do it first.

Please confirm your vote.

I guess that Engineering isn't the right name, now we lost Pyramids.

To be clear, i modified the question on #3.

 

[culdeus]

1a
2b

Though I think we can get one unpromoted spear out of engineering first.

That's funny I thought this map didn't have a circumnav. Well that will come in handy.

 

[WastinTime]

I loaded the save (which I haven't done in a while.) I see that the Axe I built and the spear I queued in my TS are the last military we built I was expecting 4-5 good units sitting on Shaka's borders. I'm as much to blame as anyone for not getting these units in the build order during the past 15 turns, so I'm not pointing the finger. We are very fragile right now. We have an axe coming. I'd like Engineering and the capitol to build another axe/spear now. Do you all think 5 units can hold off a stack from Shaka?

 

[Mesix]

The question is NOT build the HG in Enginering or in Capital, but:
Build HG in Capital NOW or never, anywhere.
Not because we don't want build them, 'cause someone will do it first.

Please confirm your vote.

I guess that Engineering isn't the right name, now we lost Pyramids.

To be clear, i modified the question on #3.

Actually, the original plan was to build all 3 in Engineering. WT pointed out that we would probably lose the Pyramids, so we agreed to put them in the capitol (and still missed out). I never read anywhere that the others were planned anywhere else until recently.

I think that we should stick to the original plan. It is a good plan. Try for HG and HS in Engineering. Once the hill gets mined and the forge is built, Engineering will have enough hammers to build the HG and HS. Get 5th ready to crank out some units. 5th should be able to build enough units to take out Shaka without help from Engineering. Even if we miss out on one of the two GE wonders, we can still work towards IW and run a GE farm from Engineering later on.

So my vote goes for A: 1...let's get to maces and boats.

My vote goes for B: 0...that means 1 and 2 are new ideas and I vote to not change the original plan.

Lets crank units out of 5th and Parma. Parma can build nonpromoted units without a forge or a barracks.

 

[Mesix]

Engineering currently has 9 production. If we build a mine on the hill that will be +3. With 12 production the forge will finish in 10 turns. After the forge is done we can run one engineer and we get +25% so that makes production 18 (double what it is now). The barry will be finished 6 turns later. If stone is linked up by then, HG will only take 8-9 turns to build (depending on overflow). That means that with focus on this goal, Engineering can have HG in 24-25 turns.

 

[Mesix]

I see a general consensus to research Machinery > Compas > Optics.

I see a general consensus to prepare for war with Shaka. TO that end I plan to build a barracks in 5th which will take 2 turns and then crank out one spear followed by axe, then swords (after iron is linked up), and maces (after we tech). I plan to suppliment the troops from 5th with unpromoted units from Parma. Once we have a decent force, we can take a few turns to build a barracks in Parma too.

I will go with majority vote on the Engineering plan. I really don't think that engineering needs to be building units. As I demonstrated in the above post, we can get HG in about 25 turns which has a reasonable chance to beat the AI. What do other team members think? Should we build HG in Engineering or not?

I will give people some time to chew on the plan and vote for the build queue in Engineering. I plan to play tonight in about 15-18 hours from now.

 

[greatbeyond]

I agree with Mesix on the voting and production ideas.

 

[WastinTime]

I'd like to see one more axe from engineering because it's so close to Shaka. In fact, let's move the spear out of there and stack it with the axe--that was my plan when I chose to build that spear. I also think the axe needs to move closer to Shaka, on a nice forest or jungle for defense. Maybe he won't attack if the 2 unit stack is strong enough.

Once this minimal defense is up, I agree with your build plan mostly.

Maces are only 3 turns away. So all that stuff about spears, axes, swords...don't think we'll bother with swords. Let Parma make the spear/axe city defense. Fifth cranks out the city raider maces.

 

[culdeus]

Don't panic we have this right where we want it. I like all the talk about moving on isthmus in 2 and all, but you've got to move through the land somehow anyways might as well do it while amassing GG points baiting the AI to attempt to kill you. Keep the eye on the prize. Don't panic. Fifthburg is tailor made for a mace pumping station. When it finally gets cranking it will be able to put out 3 mace every 7 turns without any chopping. Parma will be able to do about half that rate. Might be able to run 10 maces out in about 13 turns, maybe 15 right from the gun. As soon as the worker chopfest is over it can road from the ivory to isthmus to speed up the advance.

Heck, I think we can bring down shaka AND get the HG in engineering. It's not worth bring online as a war engine city anyways now or ever.

Run about 8 more turns and pull all our diplo + from shaka. Beg him to attack. Trust me. I ran it in a test, no point in converting to stave off an early attack it's only +1 from shaka.

 

[MacBalt]

Engineering currently has 9 production. If we build a mine on the hill that will be +3. With 12 production the forge will finish in 10 turns. After the forge is done we can run one engineer and we get +25% so that makes production 18 (double what it is now). The barry will be finished 6 turns later. If stone is linked up by then, HG will only take 8-9 turns to build (depending on overflow). That means that with focus on this goal, Engineering can have HG in 24-25 turns.

This, so far as I can tell, is well argued. I'm changing my vote on question "B" to "0" -- assuming BLub says the voting booth is still open for corrections.

I see a general consensus to prepare for war with Shaka. TO that end I plan to build a barracks in 5th which will take 2 turns and then crank out one spear followed by axe, then swords (after iron is linked up), and maces (after we tech). I plan to suppliment the troops from 5th with unpromoted units from Parma. Once we have a decent force, we can take a few turns to build a barracks in Parma too.

Great -- except Maces will be available in 3 turns. As WT pointed out, I think I'd rather have either Axes or Maces instead of swords.

I will go with majority vote on the Engineering plan. I really don't think that engineering needs to be building units. As I demonstrated in the above post, we can get HG in about 25 turns which has a reasonable chance to beat the AI. What do other team members think? Should we build HG in Engineering or not?

It is a gamble, but I agree it is worth trying. The slow tech pace across the ocean should make this work for us. (Of course, I was sure we were going to get the Pyramids too... ).

 

[Mesix]

Maces in 3 turns then. What to do in 5th for 3 turns?

Barracks takes 2 turns.

Sould we build one promoted spearman (with healer) to put with the mace stack?

edit: I don't think we have the civics to get 2 promos on the spearman.

What about the island cities? Marble will build MS after library. Is there a plan for Stone beyond basic infrastructure?

 

[Mesix]

It might be a good idea to plan national wonder placement. We can put 2 wonders per city.

MS will go in Marble.
IW should go in Engineering.
If we get a good shrine built, Parma would make a good candidate for WS.
Will 5th be our research city? If so, OU should go there.

Any other ideas?

 

[Mesix]

On the topic of HG in Engineering. I see that Greatbeyond and Balthalion are for this idea. That makes 3 votes for.

Berserks01 voted to go for HG in Engineering before the plan was outlined. Is that one more vote for the proposed plan?

Wastin Time and Culdeus are discussing military buildup. With an understanding that 5th will crank out a stack of CR maces with nonpromo reserves being built in Parma, do you guys agree with the plan to go for HG in Engineering? Forge > Barry > HG in that order.

Blubmuz, after reading the plan that I outlined, are you swayed to get HG and work towards a GE farm in Engineering?

Are there any votes against this plan?