SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[Sweetacshon]

1. WT makes a good point about the marble island and whipping. Of course it is always good to have the option, and I'm for swapping with bureau.
2. Yes
3. Yes - at least I think so. I did some spreadsheeting between BW and writing (my first attempt at such a thing) and we could get a GS around turn 56, although this would probably delay a settler to about the same time. BW first has a settler around 38, but this delays the library 'til about 50, and that makes the GS at 67. I also found absolutely no reason to delay either BW or writing by getting the wheel, as the worker can mine 2S or prechop and won't run out of tasks. Take a look.

As for the cities, I'd really like the warrior to go down to clear that fog in the SW, and fingers crossed for a seafood resource. I did settle pretty much like GB and less like WT and Blub, pretty much to get the fresh water bonus. I'd love to snek a city in 2N of the rice, but we'll wait and see what the Zulus do. If we want the Oracle, shouldn't we think of the island site? I suppose I'll just reserve my judgement until that fog is cleared, but cast a tentative vote for Blubs red, although it is food poor, and the yellow is production poor. Bah - it's all poor. Let's hope the fog has something to hide.

 

[Mesix]

1. I have never been a big fan of slavery. The only time that it makes sense to run slavery is when building troops fast, and then only in cities that have a lot of food but very little production.

2. I think that an early GS is a good idea. We should go for writing after fishing to make this happen. After develping the clams, fish, and cows in the capitol, it should be easy to reach the happy cap. Once we reach 6 pop we can run one scientist and once we reach 7 pop (needing an additional happiness from the nearby ivory to do so) we can run two scientists. This will give us commerce of 20 (9 capitol + 7 gold + 2 fish + 2 clams) and raw research of 6 (scientists x 2) in our capitol. At 100% this would net 45.5 (26 + 75% from library and academy) research from one city relatively early on.

3. Yes (see #2 above).

Other thoughts...

I think that we should sail around the island with the marble before we decide how to settle it. If there is more seafood or additional resources in the BFC from nearby islands then it makes sense to settle south of the marble. If the only resources are the marble and the fish then I think we should settle on the marble for 2 reasons. First we get the marble immediately and don't neet to transport a worker down there. Second we get the additional growth from the fish which will be very important later. That city should be #3 or #4, just before we build the Oracle in another city. Once we have the city we can slow build the Moai Statues for additional production potential. It is a NW so there is no need to rush.

Going for writing immediatly after fishing is a good choice. Both the research bonus and the ability to sign open borders with some AI players are nice. In addition to getting the early GS, we also get to run scientists in the city and get the bonus science from the library. In my test game it only took 9 turns to build the library. We will very quickly research any techs that were postponed from researching writing and then continue to research faster to build a good tech lead. Writing is also a prereq for alphabet which will be a necessary tech (later on) after we meet some more friendly (and distant) AI players.

Building the Pyramids early should be another priority. We can use it as a GE base for a specialized GE city (along with a forge and other GE wonders). Running representation early on will give us additional happiness and also +3 research for all specialists which will further cement our tech lead.

 

[BLubmuz]

GB, the more i look the map, the more i'm convinced of my choice for city #2 and #3 placement.
Some overlap will not hurt, and they both have good food and decent production.

It's pointless talk about our next research if we don't decide NOW between:
1) MC sling
2) CS sling

Still, i'm conviced that in both cases Wheel, then Writing is the best choice.
Please remember our cheap libraries.

I'll modify the test to reflect what we know now, and try some different strategy.
In the test we got copper, but i'm pretty sure that somewhere close to the capital we'll find it also in the actual map.

Mesix, writing after fishing will not help much, we're busy building workboats.
If we reserarch Wheel, not only the worker will be busy, but our settlers will reach sooner their destination.

I guess that without stone, only the CS sling can give us the pyramids.

 

[Mesix]

In my test game writing finished researcing after the 2nd fishing boat was finished building. I then built library followed by settler. By turn 49 the 2nd city was settled and the capitol was up to pop 6.

 

[greatbeyond]

I prefer to get Metal Casting with the slingshot (if we pull it off) because it allows us to build Forges and the Colossus. The Colossus really helps our economy without waiting for Towns,and the Forges help our wonder production

Tech preference
Fishing, BW, Writing, The Wheel, Sailing

Production
Barracks until we can build WB, WB#2, Settler

 

[BLubmuz]

For your info, i'm playing some test with the modified map.
For now, i'm just trying to optimize the early game.

In all the attempts Shaka settled his 2nd city W of rice.
In one I was building the Oracle in city 2, and i was beaten around 875 BC, very late, with all the techs for the CS in.
In next one i build it in Capital and i was beaten in 1360 BC . Even before the GW !!!
Then i tried again, and managed the MC sling in 1200 BC with both pottery and BW in trading with Pericles.
But probably we'll not have another AI willing to trade, and Shaka trades nothing, despite he knows Pericles.

Let's consider 1400 BC as a safe date.

Now i'll try a variant.

 

[greatbeyond]

I'm going to have limited test time for the next 3 days, but will be able to read and post. Keep up the good work testing. Like you I have run into some early AI wonder completions and have looked for the optimal path.

I think you are right about the rice city, unless we hurry a Settler and send him there, Shaka will get it before us. I am not against blocking him off, but I haven't yet tested if it's possible, and what his reaction will be. I guess it depends on how much more landmass he has.

 

[WastinTime]

I don't like MC sling. We can go for MC first thing after CS if you want. Forges just aren't that great. Early Colossus...I don't like that either. We'll probably be working our mines and maybe a couple specialists. I don't see us working much water except the seafood. I think we can get Colossus if we go to MC after CS. Bureaucracy is just too powerful.

 

[BLubmuz]

WT, i'm worried for the CS:
No way to have both Math and CoL before 1400 BC and be able to build the Oracle for that date.
I'm trying a second variant: in my first one i researched sailing right after fishing, to settle on marble, but this way you loose too many turns of research.
We need the wheel to connect cities (also for trade routes = more research) and for resources, mainly gold.
I agree with you, but i don't wanna take risks.

Some report of your tests, if you have played some?

Also, no way to beat Shaka on the first settler: when i modified the map, he was building his worker in 1 turn when we was in 3.

 

[Mesix]

Let Shaka settle the rice. If the city is in a good spot, it will eventally be ours anyway. Your city placement looked pretty good for #2 and #3. We also need to settle the marble to get the x2 production of the Oracle (and many other wonders).

I agree with the (almost) consensus to go for a MC slingshot. Even if we only build a forge in the pyramid city, it will still pay dividends over time. I guess we will also need to build one in a coastal city if we are going for the Colusus. With so much coastline, it is almost a waste not to get the colosus. Perhaps on the island with the marble we could build lighthouse, the Moai Statues, forge, and Colusus in that order.

What does a CS slingshot have to do with the Pyramids? All we need to research to build the pyramids is masonry. The AI does not give a high priority to the Pyramids, so it should be easy to build even if we only have one or two forests to chop in the city that is going to build it. I guess we can run more specialists, but in the early game we won't have the excess food to really take advantage of this. Two scientists in the capitol, a couple of priests in our Oracle city, and an engineer in our Pyramid city will probably be the extent of our early specialists. Later in the game, we will have more cities reaching their happy cap and be running specialists, but by then we should have CS and a number of buildings that allow us to run specialists.

I think that the important early wonders to build will be: Oracle, Pyramids, Colosus, and the Great Library. Are there any others that we want to build ourselves? Any wonders that we don't build we can take by force. Most of the AI players build wonders in their capitols, so we shouldn't even have to worry much about domination limits to take the WW by force. Capture capitols, raze unnecessary AI cities, and leave any enemy AI players weakened with a BS city locked in the tundra (or other undesirable area). Shaka will probably need to be eliminated compeltely. There isn't much reason to keep him in the game as he has no trade value and isn't likely to be helpful.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Only 1 viewing of my spreadsheet. Oh well. I guess we need to nail down whether CS is doable (in a probablistic sense) and give everyone a chance to test it. The immediate question, though, is BW or writing next. I was for BW, but now I'm thinking writing. Blub, I know you want the wheel in, but I just think it is not necessary before writing. I'm going to try another test with 2 workers and see what happens.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I will modify my testgame to reflect the new info we know,. I don't know if i'll get it posted tonight.

Did you post this, I'd prefer not to do all the worldbuildering if you've already done it.

 

[greatbeyond]

Did you post this, I'd prefer not to do all the worldbuildering if you've already done it.

I have modified the save from our last starting position so you'll have to play it forward to our current turn. I think I got all the tiles right.

I'll try and be good and view your spreadsheet. I have been trying to play catch up with the other monthly contest games. We need to review these and make some choices about how to proceed. I don't see any reason to hurry ahead without a plan.

Next Tech?
Next Build?
When do we build a Settler and where does he go?
GS debate?
Which wonder will we try first?

Colossus was built early in each of my test games. If I didn't build it, someone else did.

 

[MacBalt]

Great discussions guys. Sorry I haven't been any help. With the economy in the toilet here "restructuring" at work is keeping me occupied.

1. I'm not big on slavery
2. Yes on GS
3. Yes on Academy

I like the city placements posted by BLub.
I prefer to go for the CS sling if our tests show it to be a good bet. Sorry I can't run any games myself right now.

 

[BLubmuz]

I like the city placements posted by BLub.

BTW in all my attempts, i've seen blue circles there.
For what is worth.

I'm proceeding with my experiments, but squeeze a CS sling before 1400 BC is not easy.

 

[BLubmuz]

Alright, better than this wouldn't be so easy:

Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) Tech learned: Fishing - i turned research to 0% for 1 turn.
Turn 25/500 (3000 BC) Tech learned: The Wheel
Yasodharapura finishes: Work Boat - i've sent this on the far fish, started another one, our nets was in at the same time, but i have to see what is better. Anyway:
Turn 33/500 (2680 BC) Yasodharapura grows: 4
Turn 34/500 (2640 BC) Tech learned: Writing
Turn 38/500 (2480 BC) Tech learned: Mysticism
Turn 40/500 (2400 BC) Yasodharapura grows: 6 the max, for now
Turn 41/500 (2360 BC) Yasodharapura finishes: Library
Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) Yasodharapura finishes: Settler - great MM on this: we need that Ivory, and find the right balance between production and GP points will help the Oracle
Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) Tech learned: Code of Laws
Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) Yasodharapura grows: 7 - Niels Bohr (Great Scientist) born in Yasodharapura - i could have used him for Mathematics or an Academy, but the Oracle has to be built, so Academy it was - the Ivory was improved and i timed the growth
Turn 67/500 (1320 BC) Tech learned: Mathematics - Yasodharapura finishes: The Oracle
next one is easy: Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) Civics Change: SuryaTest(Khmer) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: SuryaTest(Khmer) from 'Tribalism' to 'Caste System'

Now, it's doable, with a lot of MM on anything, but is it!
And maybe i can shave anoter turn or 2, to put us in a very safe zone

Opinions, please.
Time to begin to play!

 

[culdeus]

I've been a bit busy this week. Tonight I have solo babysitting duty so that means I'll be able to work on some of this tonight.

So Merum any bootlegger runs this game? I'm getting requests for more ;-). Maybe setup a joint session somewhere this time.

 

[WastinTime]

Colossus was built early in each of my test games. If I didn't build it, someone else did.

Great, let's just capture it. I think Oracle (for CS), Great Lighthouse, Great Library, and then build a massive army to capture cities/wonders.

In my test game I did CS slingshot, we should try to meet people so Alphabet trades, then I went for sailing, Literature. Right after sailing, you have build a galley, and GLighthouse, and go to Marble island to get ready for the GLib. Then barracks and army in the capitol. PigCity and ClamTown have already been working on military. It'd be good to start taking cities once the GLighthouse is up.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, played some variant with differnt MM.
Never managed to improve, but i think 1360 BC is doable.

 

[dutchfire]

I think the Colossus isn't majorly important, we have a lot of green land, and working grassland is usually better than working coast, so the Colossus won't give us that much extra.