I hoped Engineering had become a religion
good one. I agree.I searched for the suggested name for the GE city and couldn't find it. Feel free to rename Engineering.
SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
good one. I agree.I searched for the suggested name for the GE city and couldn't find it. Feel free to rename Engineering.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Nice turn set WT.
I'm with Blub on the Caste System over slavery. We need to run specialists. If we want to limit growth, we can run multiple specialists without prereq building under Caste System. The more great people we pop, the faster we will finish this game.
We can put up with some unhappiness in conquered cities. They won't be building wonders anyway. Conquered cities should crank out one or two buildings (courthouse and barracks maybe) and then produce units to continue our domination. Eventually one of the conquered cities will make a good location for the Forbidden Palace and another for Versais.
I'm with Blub on the Caste System over slavery. We need to run specialists. If we want to limit growth, we can run multiple specialists without prereq building under Caste System. The more great people we pop, the faster we will finish this game.
We can put up with some unhappiness in conquered cities. They won't be building wonders anyway. Conquered cities should crank out one or two buildings (courthouse and barracks maybe) and then produce units to continue our domination. Eventually one of the conquered cities will make a good location for the Forbidden Palace and another for Versais.
I think we need to hold off on excessive specialists until t200ish. Engineering will build a forge and run an engineer. Hopefully another GE wonder. We need Engineering to pop a GE (probably around t200) and then just hope we get another from somewhere before the end. If we run tons of specialist now, we will not likely get 2 GE. And remember, we'd love to get as many GE as possible.
We have to plan for a 250-300 turn game. That means Shaka's cities need to contribute to our research engine. Courthouse, library, and some universities. IF we get TGLH every coastal city will be a nice addition. We could turn off slavery and go back to caste for free when we get stateProperty (i'm guessing around t170).
We have to plan for a 250-300 turn game. That means Shaka's cities need to contribute to our research engine. Courthouse, library, and some universities. IF we get TGLH every coastal city will be a nice addition. We could turn off slavery and go back to caste for free when we get stateProperty (i'm guessing around t170).
culdeus
Emperor
Back from a quick vacation. Will digest what's happened. Mesix is next then me? Should be good for that this week no problem.
I vote to go ahead and convert to confuc and settle the missionary in joao's capital. There's a lot of time till a caravel and we can get our scout on it instead perhaps. I need to look at the save. What exploring is left to be done by land and by sea that's visible? It can't be much now. By the time we can land a missionary the other AI will be covered up in hindu/budd due to their proximity and both were founded on the big island.
Just noticed we have iron and bronze. So that means a quick wonder rush and when the mids are in we gear up to take down shaka and then maybe keep J around awhile? After optics then a mace tech rush? Is that the plan? A cluster of 5-6 maces should take down all of shaka fairly easily.
I vote to go ahead and convert to confuc and settle the missionary in joao's capital. There's a lot of time till a caravel and we can get our scout on it instead perhaps. I need to look at the save. What exploring is left to be done by land and by sea that's visible? It can't be much now. By the time we can land a missionary the other AI will be covered up in hindu/budd due to their proximity and both were founded on the big island.
Just noticed we have iron and bronze. So that means a quick wonder rush and when the mids are in we gear up to take down shaka and then maybe keep J around awhile? After optics then a mace tech rush? Is that the plan? A cluster of 5-6 maces should take down all of shaka fairly easily.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
I was away for the weekend, sorry, I should have notified. 
It was a good TS, WT, but I have a couple of gripes. One is the length queued builds. In my experience, the more that is automated, the more things are missed in game. The longer the queue, the less a player checks cities for MMing, etc. Also, this is sort of dictating to the next player what he should build. I know you probably meant it as a suggestion, but if we are planning that far ahead, shouldn't we discuss it as a team? So, moving on, here's what's queued:
Fifthburg: spear - GLH - granary
Parma: temple - axe - library - barracks
Marbles: wrkr - wrkr - library - Moai
Engineering: library - granary - barracks
The second is the wb that was brought back to fish. It was meant to be an exploring wb! I have come to expect in these hand made maps to find features that you perhaps wouldn't find on randomly created maps of similar type. Look at the attached and see what was missed!! It may be just an island, or it may be a link.
Just to be clear, this is not a personal attack on WT, but a suggestion that all facets of the TSs are layed out in a pre-play plan (PPP). If I had known the wb was returning to fish, I would certainly commented on it. It's going to take 20 or so turns to get back there, so that's 30 turns we've lost if it links to another landmass. OK, so judging from evidence that no AI have come exploring from the west, do we assume that it doesn't link, and just wait for caravels? Optics is about 45 turns at current tech rates, but we certainly geared up for teching tight now, so should be faster.
It was a good TS, WT, but I have a couple of gripes. One is the length queued builds. In my experience, the more that is automated, the more things are missed in game. The longer the queue, the less a player checks cities for MMing, etc. Also, this is sort of dictating to the next player what he should build. I know you probably meant it as a suggestion, but if we are planning that far ahead, shouldn't we discuss it as a team? So, moving on, here's what's queued:
Fifthburg: spear - GLH - granary
Parma: temple - axe - library - barracks
Marbles: wrkr - wrkr - library - Moai
Engineering: library - granary - barracks
The second is the wb that was brought back to fish. It was meant to be an exploring wb! I have come to expect in these hand made maps to find features that you perhaps wouldn't find on randomly created maps of similar type. Look at the attached and see what was missed!! It may be just an island, or it may be a link.
Just to be clear, this is not a personal attack on WT, but a suggestion that all facets of the TSs are layed out in a pre-play plan (PPP). If I had known the wb was returning to fish, I would certainly commented on it. It's going to take 20 or so turns to get back there, so that's 30 turns we've lost if it links to another landmass. OK, so judging from evidence that no AI have come exploring from the west, do we assume that it doesn't link, and just wait for caravels? Optics is about 45 turns at current tech rates, but we certainly geared up for teching tight now, so should be faster.
Attachments
You make good points. I flipped a coin on the wb returning. However, I'm sure it can't link up, cus they woulda found us. With military coming out now, we'd have to pay for that WB too--even though 1 gold isn't much.
The build queues were just me thinking out loud. I don't even agree with them. We'll need to get forges in there. I just figured the next player would change them all. Just some suggestions to work with.
The build queues were just me thinking out loud. I don't even agree with them. We'll need to get forges in there. I just figured the next player would change them all. Just some suggestions to work with.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
I will probably play my turn set on Saturday.
What are the plans then? Are we going to get a settler or two down to the island with the stone to hurry mids (after GLH of course). Are we planning to spin that island off into a colony?
Should I start prepping to attack Shaka?
Tech order suggestions?
What are the plans then? Are we going to get a settler or two down to the island with the stone to hurry mids (after GLH of course). Are we planning to spin that island off into a colony?
Should I start prepping to attack Shaka?
Tech order suggestions?
We need to speed up a bit. 8 days between turnsets is a lot. Can anyone else play before saturday?
The stone island doesn't cost anything in colony maintenance with only 1 city. We want to keep the stone anyway, so spinoff is not in its future.
The stone island doesn't cost anything in colony maintenance with only 1 city. We want to keep the stone anyway, so spinoff is not in its future.
culdeus
Emperor
I saw that land bridge too. It would certainly allow a crossing, but likely to nothing of consequence. Maybe just sentry our scout on the point in case someone settles there or sends a boat by as it is the only feasible way left in right?. No point in sending the WB down there now. Will take too long. Wait for caravels after machinery.
I tend to like the build orders set forth. Will time relatively well with machinery for a huge mace rush on shaka. Need to start laying down a few roads to the west to make the movement faster though.
The next turns to GLH are fairly boring. Anyone can do them really. A worker can finish the mine to chop overflow the GLH or instead allow fifth to grow to 8 (with conversion) and use the hammers to just plain finish the GLH. Those are the only real MM concerns.
I'm still set on settling the missionary and converting in turn 2 of this set.
I tend to like the build orders set forth. Will time relatively well with machinery for a huge mace rush on shaka. Need to start laying down a few roads to the west to make the movement faster though.
The next turns to GLH are fairly boring. Anyone can do them really. A worker can finish the mine to chop overflow the GLH or instead allow fifth to grow to 8 (with conversion) and use the hammers to just plain finish the GLH. Those are the only real MM concerns.
I'm still set on settling the missionary and converting in turn 2 of this set.
Religion: I can't decide:
Pro: share religion and get Pleased Shaka & Joao. Get a +1 happy
Con: Possibly find some very angry AI's on the other side that won't even open borders.
We have no civic that requires religion. We lose 1 turn anarchy. Sharing a religion w/Shaka while warring with him causes more unhappiness.
An early attack by Shaka is our worst case. Having him Pleased might stop that, but I don't think we'll get Shaka to Pleased before we decide to attack him. So i guess I just convinced myself to not switch religion. If they demanded it, I'd reconsider.
Pro: share religion and get Pleased Shaka & Joao. Get a +1 happy
Con: Possibly find some very angry AI's on the other side that won't even open borders.
We have no civic that requires religion. We lose 1 turn anarchy. Sharing a religion w/Shaka while warring with him causes more unhappiness.
An early attack by Shaka is our worst case. Having him Pleased might stop that, but I don't think we'll get Shaka to Pleased before we decide to attack him. So i guess I just convinced myself to not switch religion. If they demanded it, I'd reconsider.
culdeus
Emperor
Perhaps, but in some of the tests the continental AI were so backwards by the time I reached them even at this point they weren't worth propping up. It's easy to forget this is a Monarch game sometimes. Honestly, I don't know how to handle trading on this level very well. What's the overall objective once we make sight of the other continent? Even on a hypothetical level so I can start working within those guidelines?
ETA: If you want me to get thru the GLH sometime this week let me know. I can draw up a preliminary plan below.
Build plan is fine. Some will not complete this TS and will be cleared when that is apparent.
Fifthburg: finish spear 1- GLH 7 or 8 - END TS
Parma: temple - axe - library - barracks
Marbles: wrkr - wrkr - library - Moai
Engineering: library - EDIT: Forge - granary - barracks
Galley - Move to settle 1N of stone then return to marble island to pickup worker for mainland then idles in marble city.
Worker on island quarries stone END TS
Worker on marble boards galley for mainland to help chop mids next TS.
Worker near engineering finishes cows and theneither heads to finish mine and chop towards GLH or goes to iron? Which one? We will need that mine for mids.
Tiles worked in cities maintain current settingsunless mine is to be built in which case work extra GF rather than PF.
Scout moves nearest point to land bridge
Workboat waits to settle fish
Research MC->Machinery
Accept demands to convert and for techs
Decline other requests
Set Sci% to +GPT for random events. We are so due a random event. This is really late to not have one for me. I'm so unlucky with these that I'm nervous about it.
ETA: If you want me to get thru the GLH sometime this week let me know. I can draw up a preliminary plan below.
Build plan is fine. Some will not complete this TS and will be cleared when that is apparent.
Fifthburg: finish spear 1- GLH 7 or 8 - END TS
Parma: temple - axe - library - barracks
Marbles: wrkr - wrkr - library - Moai
Engineering: library - EDIT: Forge - granary - barracks
Galley - Move to settle 1N of stone then return to marble island to pickup worker for mainland then idles in marble city.
Worker on island quarries stone END TS
Worker on marble boards galley for mainland to help chop mids next TS.
Worker near engineering finishes cows and then
Tiles worked in cities maintain current settings
Scout moves nearest point to land bridge
Workboat waits to settle fish
Research MC->Machinery
Accept demands to convert and for techs
Decline other requests
Set Sci% to +GPT for random events. We are so due a random event. This is really late to not have one for me. I'm so unlucky with these that I'm nervous about it.
We could consider another settler in marbles after the 2 workers, before library. For the 2 fish city up north. That's probably not your TS culdeus, but something to discuss.
Don't forget when MC finishes we need to consider forges. Engineering in particular needs one so it can run a specialist. The capitol will want to get one by the time the stone is quarried and roaded, so the forest chops pay off the most.
Oh, another thing. At the end of my TS I had just cleared enough fog to connect the trade network with Joao. We'll want to start looking for resource trades.
Another thing... I sent the Axe to go sit on the Iron. Might keep Shaka away. However, like the build queues that I filled, I'm probably not supposed to give orders like that to the Axe. When my TS started the worker had orders I didn't like, so I had to cancel them. Luckily I noticed. Are there SG ettiquette rules somewhere that I can review? I'm still new at this.
Don't forget when MC finishes we need to consider forges. Engineering in particular needs one so it can run a specialist. The capitol will want to get one by the time the stone is quarried and roaded, so the forest chops pay off the most.
Oh, another thing. At the end of my TS I had just cleared enough fog to connect the trade network with Joao. We'll want to start looking for resource trades.
Another thing... I sent the Axe to go sit on the Iron. Might keep Shaka away. However, like the build queues that I filled, I'm probably not supposed to give orders like that to the Axe. When my TS started the worker had orders I didn't like, so I had to cancel them. Luckily I noticed. Are there SG ettiquette rules somewhere that I can review? I'm still new at this.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Culdeus, you should probably play, as Sat is a fair way off. The plan sounds good, although I question the library in Parma. If we hire the priest asap (don't forget 
), will we have enough time for the lib before barracks and maces when machinery comes in? At current tech speed, yes, but if TGLH, etc changes things... I don't know. A thought is to stick barracks in before lib, just in case, but I'm not sure.
We'll also have forges to put in in 5 or so turns. I suggest after the GLH in 5th, after the temple in Parma, after both workers in Marbles, and asap in Engineering. I also think the iron should be mined by that north worker before chopping for that mine. I'd prefer to get those chop hammers into the mids for the stone bonus, TGLH doesn't have a resource bonus, does it?
Another thing is to get agriculture so we can chain irrigate to the grassland near Parma, which would allow us to work all the hills... perhaps we'll be done with GPs by then anyway, and it can work all the hills with no specialists anyway. I suppose the same applies for med and a monastery in Fifthburg, another 6-7 bpt would be nice to have but I suppose can wait, as we have too many wonders to build.
Looking forward, I have no problem spinning off the stone island, as we can demand the stone in tribute, but that is something to keep in mind for later, one or 2 island cities won't break us, especially with TGLH. Do we intend to settle anymore, say the north island (could be OK with the colossus) or to the west of the stone island south of shaka?
), will we have enough time for the lib before barracks and maces when machinery comes in? At current tech speed, yes, but if TGLH, etc changes things... I don't know. A thought is to stick barracks in before lib, just in case, but I'm not sure.We'll also have forges to put in in 5 or so turns. I suggest after the GLH in 5th, after the temple in Parma, after both workers in Marbles, and asap in Engineering. I also think the iron should be mined by that north worker before chopping for that mine. I'd prefer to get those chop hammers into the mids for the stone bonus, TGLH doesn't have a resource bonus, does it?
Another thing is to get agriculture so we can chain irrigate to the grassland near Parma, which would allow us to work all the hills... perhaps we'll be done with GPs by then anyway, and it can work all the hills with no specialists anyway. I suppose the same applies for med and a monastery in Fifthburg, another 6-7 bpt would be nice to have but I suppose can wait, as we have too many wonders to build.
Looking forward, I have no problem spinning off the stone island, as we can demand the stone in tribute, but that is something to keep in mind for later, one or 2 island cities won't break us, especially with TGLH. Do we intend to settle anymore, say the north island (could be OK with the colossus) or to the west of the stone island south of shaka?
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Xpost with WT.
Note that the north island cannot house a 2 fish city - they are too far away from each other.
I suppose I don't want to convert (unless asked) yet either. I am happy enough to give the missionary to Joao, but again, it would be nice to have some for the caravels, so perhaps that monastry after the mids in the capital.
@WT: There is no pure set of rules for a SG. Here is a suggestion from the reference thread.
Note that the north island cannot house a 2 fish city - they are too far away from each other.
I suppose I don't want to convert (unless asked) yet either. I am happy enough to give the missionary to Joao, but again, it would be nice to have some for the caravels, so perhaps that monastry after the mids in the capital.
@WT: There is no pure set of rules for a SG. Here is a suggestion from the reference thread.
Spoiler guide :
Libraries are cheap for our leader. When/if TGLH comes in we will have a huge reason to get to libraries up. Building a barracks before the library doesn't make any sense, might as well delay the barracks until you're ready to build military. I can't imagine we'd pump out a ton of military without first getting the cheap library (same argument for granary).
Agri: 1) I don't want to trade Joao too much stuff in case we want to smash him before longbows, 2) I'm not a fan of farming grass. I think our core 3 cities should be cottaged. Once the military is produced, they'll all have universities/observatories.
Marbles does not need a forge for a while, after moai I think.
Parma can also wait a bit on the forge. Library, barracks and few macemen first.
I agree with the Iron mine. Forests can be pre-improved (mines/cottages). Maybe finish that one mine so we don't lose TGLH.
We can't do a monastery cus I don't think we have meditation. We want a missionary (or 2) to go the other side on the caravel. We can't expect to convert anyone, but a good religion spreader AI will give us lots of confu cities for our shrine.
North city: I didn't notice the fish are too far apart. Maybe pass on that city then.
Thx for the etiquette link, I knew I read that somewhere before.
Agri: 1) I don't want to trade Joao too much stuff in case we want to smash him before longbows, 2) I'm not a fan of farming grass. I think our core 3 cities should be cottaged. Once the military is produced, they'll all have universities/observatories.
Marbles does not need a forge for a while, after moai I think.
Parma can also wait a bit on the forge. Library, barracks and few macemen first.
I agree with the Iron mine. Forests can be pre-improved (mines/cottages). Maybe finish that one mine so we don't lose TGLH.
We can't do a monastery cus I don't think we have meditation. We want a missionary (or 2) to go the other side on the caravel. We can't expect to convert anyone, but a good religion spreader AI will give us lots of confu cities for our shrine.
North city: I didn't notice the fish are too far apart. Maybe pass on that city then.
Thx for the etiquette link, I knew I read that somewhere before.
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
Sorry I haven't been able to contribute much even though I follow the thread. Been pretty hectic at work lately.
I think we should build the GLH since most of our cities seem to be coastal.
I agree with WT that barracks shouldn't be built until we start pumping out units.
We should only consider trading and converting when the AI comes knocking or if it's convenient to us. This makes getting the GLH (and possibly the Colossus) even more convenient.
I think Marbles should be the city for any settlers/workers we might need and leave the capital to other more important builds.
I think we should build the GLH since most of our cities seem to be coastal.
I agree with WT that barracks shouldn't be built until we start pumping out units.
We should only consider trading and converting when the AI comes knocking or if it's convenient to us. This makes getting the GLH (and possibly the Colossus) even more convenient.
I think Marbles should be the city for any settlers/workers we might need and leave the capital to other more important builds.
culdeus
Emperor
TS plan edited
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
Well, real life is looking pretty bleak. You guys seem to be civing impressively enough though. 
I'm going to try to pay better attention now -- at least until the next disaster hits. Can someone help me get up to speed by giving me a rough overview of the grand plan? I see a turn range of about 250-300 mentioned, and I know we're planning to shift to military soon to take out Shaka. About when do we expect to make that shift in builds? Anyone have a projected turn number for our invasion of Zululand?
Condolences on your cat, Blub. @WT: I'm sure knowing your dog is on his way to be of great service to someone who needs it has got to help ease the parting. Will you get another puppy to train?
I'm going to try to pay better attention now -- at least until the next disaster hits. Can someone help me get up to speed by giving me a rough overview of the grand plan? I see a turn range of about 250-300 mentioned, and I know we're planning to shift to military soon to take out Shaka. About when do we expect to make that shift in builds? Anyone have a projected turn number for our invasion of Zululand?Condolences on your cat, Blub. @WT: I'm sure knowing your dog is on his way to be of great service to someone who needs it has got to help ease the parting. Will you get another puppy to train?
culdeus
Emperor
Haven't heard from our leader. Do I have the greenlight to play? I can tonight. Just to the GLH or when it gets built by someone else? ok?
He was puppy #4, so I expect to do it again next spring.
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