Misotu
King
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2006
- Messages
- 934
Hallo, back again after doing a very swift but not very good test of the cultural approach. The good news is that a cultural victory in a reasonable time-frame is possible (my finishing date was *rubbish*, but I haven't played for a cultural victory in so long that I was making a load of very basic, very stupid mistakes. Nevertheless, it was enough to get the general idea 
)
The bad news - well, depending on your point of view - is that we have to talk a lot more right now (yeah, I know, we're already pretty much the longest thread and not many turns played
) but I think that, if we are even considering going for a cultural victory, we must include it in our plans pretty much right from the start. Focus is critical - otherwise we will get into the situation where we can't build any more wonders because we have to divert gold from research to culture in order to break legendary status in our three best cities - so we're just clocking up the years with no real return in score improvement. I think it can be done - I'm not saying it's necessarily the best method - but I think it could be made to work if we think pretty hard from the outset.
The caveat is that we absolutely must have three workable sites for the legendary cities - and of course, we don't know if that's available yet
Desert won't do the trick :wry grin: So I think that the real challenge is to play these first few turns without closing down too many options - if we think we might try cultural but find it's a no-goer, we have to consider what our back-up plan is!
Culture panned out well in terms of strategy. I wasn't at all happy with my time - I think my pet cat could have turned in a better result than I did
BUT ... what I can also say is that this is the first of the three games I played so far where a) I knew from early on that I would win and b) the game played kind of smoothly and pleasingly. Things weren't ideal, but culture/wonders did start to dovetail along the way. The game objectives don't make for an ideal cultural victory scenario, of course, but there is a synergy between building wonders and building culture (I think The-Hawk was saying that he had a good feeling about it and I can confirm that it was much better to play this way than trying to do the conquest/wonder-building combo).
Oracle-bureaucracy slingshot is definitely doable. I have achieved 2 out of 2 in my games so far - obviously we have to really target it to make sure, but if we decide on a plan that involves building wonders in the capital (whether cultural or other victory type) then I really think the rewards of early bureaucracy outweigh many - maybe all - other considerations.
My game seemed to indicate (but I want to check this by playing another game or two) that 6 cities will do the trick. With these settings, we need 3 temples per cathedral. Frankly, given the number of wonders in the capital and given reasonable food, the capital will sail home with one, or even no, cathedrals, assuming we run a few artists (which we should, to try to "pollute" the very priest-heavy GP pool!). The concern is the other two cities. What I found in the game I just played was that making the capital the big production/wonder city and having two other cities with good food and some production works ok. Of the two secondary cities, the best one gets the Parthenon (because it's early. The AI just doesn't get round to it for ages so we have an excellent chance of getting it) and hopefully at least one other artist-generating wonder (depending on chopping), plus maybe the Nat Epic and the Globe. Even with the competition from the capital, that city will generate a few artists. The third city must have food (plus some production) so it can run a load of artists, primarily to generate its own culture but also hopefully to generate an artist at some point.
I could easily have founded 3 maybe 4 religions. I founded Confucianism & Christianity and then stopped, because other religions were spreading very early and well. We might want to reconsider that decision, if we're isolated on an island. And again, we might want to reconsider given the points for shrines.
The AI speeded up in wonder production as the game progressed. I missed a few later on, like the Spiral Minaret and the Taj. Missed the Statue of Zeus by one turn, which was a bummer. Otherwise, I was able to take most of them - the ones I missed were simply due to bad planning.
I know I'm long-winded so sorry to go on. In bald summary I think:
1. Cultural victory is doable - maybe not the best but definitely doable.
2. 2 further good sites are required. Food is a priority, but some production (a hill or two plus forests) is indispensible.
3. We should aim for six cities. That's enough - unless we're isolated on an island, in which case we may need an emergency strategy to gain extra religions.
4. We have to hit the cultural victory early. I only got 120 points out of 310 from wonders. Not impressive given a post-1500 AD finish date. Finish date could have been much improved but until I go back and look again, I'm not sure by how much. Someone here must have a better grip on cultural victories than I do 
Even so, it's food for thought. For a cultural victory you have to divert resources away from research and into culture at some point ... which means that, unless we do something very canny, more wonders are just not going to come into view.
I'll play another game tomorrow. Now I've half-remembered how to get a cultural victory, I will get a much better (and more indicative result). It would be good if other people have time to try out the culture route - I'm no expert but I do get the feeling that, if someone really knew what they were doing and if the map just turned out reasonable - this could be the answer.
)The bad news - well, depending on your point of view - is that we have to talk a lot more right now (yeah, I know, we're already pretty much the longest thread and not many turns played
) but I think that, if we are even considering going for a cultural victory, we must include it in our plans pretty much right from the start. Focus is critical - otherwise we will get into the situation where we can't build any more wonders because we have to divert gold from research to culture in order to break legendary status in our three best cities - so we're just clocking up the years with no real return in score improvement. I think it can be done - I'm not saying it's necessarily the best method - but I think it could be made to work if we think pretty hard from the outset.The caveat is that we absolutely must have three workable sites for the legendary cities - and of course, we don't know if that's available yet
Desert won't do the trick :wry grin: So I think that the real challenge is to play these first few turns without closing down too many options - if we think we might try cultural but find it's a no-goer, we have to consider what our back-up plan is! Culture panned out well in terms of strategy. I wasn't at all happy with my time - I think my pet cat could have turned in a better result than I did
BUT ... what I can also say is that this is the first of the three games I played so far where a) I knew from early on that I would win and b) the game played kind of smoothly and pleasingly. Things weren't ideal, but culture/wonders did start to dovetail along the way. The game objectives don't make for an ideal cultural victory scenario, of course, but there is a synergy between building wonders and building culture (I think The-Hawk was saying that he had a good feeling about it and I can confirm that it was much better to play this way than trying to do the conquest/wonder-building combo).Oracle-bureaucracy slingshot is definitely doable. I have achieved 2 out of 2 in my games so far - obviously we have to really target it to make sure, but if we decide on a plan that involves building wonders in the capital (whether cultural or other victory type) then I really think the rewards of early bureaucracy outweigh many - maybe all - other considerations.
My game seemed to indicate (but I want to check this by playing another game or two) that 6 cities will do the trick. With these settings, we need 3 temples per cathedral. Frankly, given the number of wonders in the capital and given reasonable food, the capital will sail home with one, or even no, cathedrals, assuming we run a few artists (which we should, to try to "pollute" the very priest-heavy GP pool!). The concern is the other two cities. What I found in the game I just played was that making the capital the big production/wonder city and having two other cities with good food and some production works ok. Of the two secondary cities, the best one gets the Parthenon (because it's early. The AI just doesn't get round to it for ages so we have an excellent chance of getting it) and hopefully at least one other artist-generating wonder (depending on chopping), plus maybe the Nat Epic and the Globe. Even with the competition from the capital, that city will generate a few artists. The third city must have food (plus some production) so it can run a load of artists, primarily to generate its own culture but also hopefully to generate an artist at some point.
I could easily have founded 3 maybe 4 religions. I founded Confucianism & Christianity and then stopped, because other religions were spreading very early and well. We might want to reconsider that decision, if we're isolated on an island. And again, we might want to reconsider given the points for shrines.
The AI speeded up in wonder production as the game progressed. I missed a few later on, like the Spiral Minaret and the Taj. Missed the Statue of Zeus by one turn, which was a bummer. Otherwise, I was able to take most of them - the ones I missed were simply due to bad planning.
I know I'm long-winded so sorry to go on. In bald summary I think:
1. Cultural victory is doable - maybe not the best but definitely doable.
2. 2 further good sites are required. Food is a priority, but some production (a hill or two plus forests) is indispensible.
3. We should aim for six cities. That's enough - unless we're isolated on an island, in which case we may need an emergency strategy to gain extra religions.
4. We have to hit the cultural victory early. I only got 120 points out of 310 from wonders. Not impressive
given a post-1500 AD finish date. Finish date could have been much improved but until I go back and look again, I'm not sure by how much. Someone here must have a better grip on cultural victories than I do Even so, it's food for thought. For a cultural victory you have to divert resources away from research and into culture at some point ... which means that, unless we do something very canny, more wonders are just not going to come into view. I'll play another game tomorrow. Now I've half-remembered how to get a cultural victory, I will get a much better (and more indicative result). It would be good if other people have time to try out the culture route - I'm no expert but I do get the feeling that, if someone really knew what they were doing and if the map just turned out reasonable - this could be the answer.
I find the location of the copper quite hilarious. 
