SGOTM 08 - Geezers

[Sam_Yeager]

Sam - did you want to continue the turn to complete AH and the worker?

Erm yes but what do I when AH is in? I suggest Myst next and two warriors. That would enable us to start 'henge if we want to whilst providing MP for the capital and an explorer. The next player up can research BW whilst building either the 'henge or a settler next.

How does that sound?

 

[Jenarie]

Hello!

Hoping a couple of you remember me from SGOTM4 when Ghandi decided he'd rather war then tech. That still boggles my mind.

I haven't played in over a year but finally moved again, got settled and dug out my Civ disks and am installing on my new computer. Upon coming back here to the board, first place I went was to our old thread. I just reread the past 20ish pages. Was a great time and hopefully if I can remember how to play, I can join you guys again in some future game. In the meantime just wanted to say hi and will be following and cheering you on in your new adventures.

Haven't even read the thread yet but I will definitely soon - very much looking forward to seeing what you are all up to this time around!

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Upon coming back here to the board, first place I went was to our old thread. I just reread the past 20ish pages. Was a great time and hopefully if I can remember how to play, I can join you guys again in some future game. In the meantime just wanted to say hi and will be following and cheering you on in your new adventures.

Haven't even read the thread yet but I will definitely soon - very much looking forward to seeing what you are all up to this time around!

Nice to hear from you again Jenarie. I wondered where you had got to. Hopefully you won't be too disappointed at our progress in your absence.

 

[markh]

I am a little irritated that the set was played already. I thought we wanted to avoid just this. No real consensus was there. No plan for the set was posted. We are beginning to fall back into our old habits.

Pity about the scout. It seems our bad luck in these games continues. I thought I read somewhere that the initial two battles against animals are safe to be won. Another thing we can correct.

Before we go on I really want to set a goal for this SGOTM. Especially with this victory condition the start is crucial. Wonders we miss mean no points for the victory condition. I want to know from each of us what wonders we want. This will set the path for our research.

Myst -> Stonehenge
Fishing, Sailing -> The Great Lighthouse
Masonry -> Pyramids, The Great Wall

We can have all if we want, but timing will be a big factor if we want to get the optimum out of it.

If we go on like this it will be just hopping through the techtree and we will not achieve anything. This will just lead to results we had in the previous games.

 

[markh]

Hello!

Hoping a couple of you remember me from SGOTM4 when Ghandi decided he'd rather war then tech. That still boggles my mind.

Hi Jenarie ,

good to hear that you are well. Have fun getting back into civ.

 

[Harbourboy]

Hi Jenarie!

 

[Misotu]

Hi, really sorry for the long silence. I had some unexpected family stuff come up that took me away from home and haven't booted the computer in 3 days I usually check in at least daily.

Happy with the suggested roster - gives me a chance to get a good feel for how it works before my turn.

I've read through the thread (several times - loads of good stuff to catch up on ). You can use a fort as a channel?? Amazing - I had no idea that forts work that way.

After reading the thoughts here, I'm starting to feel quite positive about a cultural victory approach. My original thought, when I played those 2 test games, was that it would be difficult to get an earlyish date and would require quite a few cities/temples/religions so I liked the idea of space or diplo/religious better, but I'm starting to wonder if culture may actually be the best option. My military efforts certainly didn't look like producing a good result - I just couldn't reach the other AIs quickly enough on normal speed and my losses were so high.

If we did go culture, we'd need to rely heavily on cathedrals - and several religions - because we can't expect to produce many artists even with a good GP farm containing carefully-chosen wonders. On the other hand, it doesn't rely on unpredictable religion spread, unpredictable relations with the AI or on an ability to travel easily around the map. It would be more straightforward from a strategy point of view.

Whatever happens, the capital will be building most of the wonders and because of that I would be strongly inclined to try for the Oracle-Bureaucracy slingshot. I managed it easily in my test game, but of course this game is probably going to be tougher

Real shame about the scout

I think now I'm back I might try a quick test with a cultural victory in mind and see how that goes, especially since I understand that some wonder properties have changed in BtS and I'm not familiar with the new wonders at all.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I am a little irritated that the set was played already. I thought we wanted to avoid just this. No real consensus was there. No plan for the set was posted. We are beginning to fall back into our old habits.

Well actually I did post a plan here to which both yourself & AgedOne agreed. The reason why I didn't play at that time was because of this post. When erik suggested playing part of the turnset I didn't think it was a problem since settling in place and AH first was generally agreed.

I
Before we go on I really want to set a goal for this SGOTM. Especially with this victory condition the start is crucial. Wonders we miss mean no points for the victory condition. I want to know from each of us what wonders we want. This will set the path for our research.

Myst -> Stonehenge
Fishing, Sailing -> The Great Lighthouse
Masonry -> Pyramids, The Great Wall

We can have all if we want, but timing will be a big factor if we want to get the optimum out of it.

If we go on like this it will be just hopping through the techtree and we will not achieve anything. This will just lead to results we had in the previous games.

It is also worth thinking where we want wonders built although we will probably have to put up with GP pollution in the capital.

 

[markh]

After your post with your plan there was still a lot of discussions going on on the start, so I thought it was not all agreed. A misunderstanding on my side.

I think you can go on with BW. After BW comes in it will be a good point to stop. After the worker is finished go on with warriors until size 2. Then we should build a settler and chop it if appropriate once the worker is done with pasturing the cows and mining the gold hill, but this will be the task for the next set.

The capital should mainly build the wonders. The second city will have to take over all the other stuff. I would not mind too much building wonders that give GAs in the capital. There are only a few in the beginning. If it can be avoided we can try it in our second or third city given they have the necessary production capacities.

 

[erikthecelt]

Sorry for getting you into trouble with the boss Sam. I thought we had general agreement on the opening moves as well

 

[markh]

What boss are you referring to ? There is none

Erik, you posted your detailed opening plans after Sam posted his plan, so I was confused why we started to play the set. That's all.

 

[erikthecelt]

What boss are you referring to ? There is none

Erik, you posted your detailed opening plans after Sam posted his plan, so I was confused why we started to play the set. That's all.

Oh Captain, My Captain

We chatted a lot then I told Sam to go ahead and play until AH came in.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I think you can go on with BW. After BW comes in it will be a good point to stop. After the worker is finished go on with warriors until size 2. Then we should build a settler and chop it if appropriate once the worker is done with pasturing the cows and mining the gold hill, but this will be the task for the next set.

I would prefer to start Myst after AH rather than BW. It gets us started on the Oracle path and we'll have time to research BW whilst the next player is building the settler. Given that Misotu has mentioned the possibility of a culture victory I think it would be helpful to leave all our options open.

 

[erikthecelt]

I think BW is better after AH, otherwise the worker has nothing to do and can not speed up the settler by chopping.

I have updated the spreadsheet to indicate wonders that produce GA points and sorted it to show the use of marble.

View attachment Wonders.rar

Given marble, the cultural VC is attractive. If we build GA wonders in one city and none GA wonders in another we might be able to bulb enough artists to get a decent finish time. The CS sling is worth going for.

 

[Harbourboy]

I think it was Margaret Thatcher who may have said that success was about having a constancy of purpose. I would really like us to decide what our long term direction is so that we stay on that track all the way, even if it turns out that it wasn't the best overall purpose to win.

 

[markh]

I would prefer to start Myst after AH rather than BW. It gets us started on the Oracle path and we'll have time to research BW whilst the next player is building the settler. Given that Misotu has mentioned the possibility of a culture victory I think it would be helpful to leave all our options open.

I would go on with BW. Myst will be just 3 - 4 turns with the gold mined and as Erik said the worker will not have anything to do otherwise. BW is most important now to be able to chop and speed up the settler.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

4000 BC - 3000 BC

Summary
Confirmed we are on a peninsula. Setled in place. Initial tech AH and initial build worker. Exploration cut short by demise of scout. We now know AH & BW. We have not revolted to slavery yet. It looks suspiciously as though we're on a large island by ourselves.

Turn 0 - 4000 BC
Move scout to gold hill, take pic and save game. After consulting with team I settle in place, start worker and tech Animal Husbandry for the cows.

Turn 1 - 3960 BC
Scout moves to end of peninsula and spies what looks like a small island to NW.

Turn 2 - 3920 BC
Scout moves back towards the east. Capital's borders expand. Looks like there is land to the north and south.

Turn 6 - 3760 BC
Scout ends turn on hll next to a panther.

IBT: Panther kills scout.

Turn 7 - 3720 BC
Decide to suspend turnset, upload save and consult with team.

Spoiler Explored land :

Turn 8 - 3680 BC
Buddhism FIDL.

Turn 13 - 3480 BC
AH -> BW, worker -> warrior. Worker starts pasturing cows.

Turn 16 - 3360 BC
Hinduism FIDL. Cows pastured.

Turn 18 - 3280 BC
Worker starts mining gold.

Turn 19 - 3240 BC
Warrior -> warrior. Send first warrior to scout.

Turn 20 - 3200 BC
Yaso grows to 2 pop.

Turn 21 - 3160 BC
Gold mined.

Turn 22 - 3120 BC
Warrior -> settler. Move worker towards hill south of Yaso.

Turn 25 - 3000 BC
BW learnt. Copper nice and near. By a convenient fluke the worker can start mining it immediately if we so desire. Set research to Myst as placeholder. Overview pic below.

Spoiler Overview :

Spoiler Turnset log :

Turn 0, 4000 BC: Logging Game to File: Geezers.txt
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Moved scout, took SS and saced game.
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Yasodharapura has been founded.

Turn 2, 3920 BC: The borders of Yasodharapura have expanded!

Turn 6, 3760 BC: Barbarian's Panther (2.00) vs Suryavarman II'sScout (2.45)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Combat Odds: 26.2%
Turn 6, 3760 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: (Class Animal Combat: +100%)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Suryavarman II's Scout is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Suryavarman II's Scout is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Suryavarman II's Scout is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Suryavarman II's Scout is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Barbarian's Panther is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Suryavarman II's Scout is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Suryavarman II's Scout is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 6, 3760 BC: Barbarian's Panther has defeated Suryavarman II's Scout!
Turn 6, 3760 BC: While defending, your Scout was destroyed by a Barbarian Panther!
Turn 7, 3720 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 12, 3520 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 15, 3400 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 23, 3080 BC: Yasodharapura's cultural boundary is about to expand.

Turn 24, 3040 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 24, 3040 BC: You have discovered a source of Copper near Yasodharapura!
Turn 24, 3040 BC: The borders of Yasodharapura have expanded!

Spoiler Game log :

Yasodharapura founded
Yasodharapura begins: Worker (15 turns)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (13 Turns)

Turn 1/500 (3960 BC) [16-Sep-2008 19:28:51]

Turn 2/500 (3920 BC) [16-Sep-2008 19:29:12]
Yasodharapura's borders expand

Turn 3/500 (3880 BC) [16-Sep-2008 19:30:48]

Turn 4/500 (3840 BC) [16-Sep-2008 19:31:34]

Turn 5/500 (3800 BC) [16-Sep-2008 19:32:02]

Turn 6/500 (3760 BC) [16-Sep-2008 19:32:39]
While defending in the wild near Yasodharapura, Scout loses to: Barbarian Panther

(0.68/2) (Prob Victory: 73.8%)

Turn 7/500 (3720 BC) [16-Sep-2008 19:34:24]

Turn 8/500 (3680 BC) [17-Sep-2008 18:54:28]

Turn 9/500 (3640 BC) [17-Sep-2008 18:55:16]

Turn 10/500 (3600 BC) [17-Sep-2008 18:55:35]

Turn 11/500 (3560 BC) [17-Sep-2008 18:55:55]

Turn 12/500 (3520 BC) [17-Sep-2008 18:56:12]
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
Yasodharapura finishes: Worker

Turn 13/500 (3480 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:12:36]
Research begun: Bronze Working (15 Turns)
Yasodharapura begins: Warrior (4 turns)

Turn 14/500 (3440 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:14:13]

Turn 15/500 (3400 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:15:45]
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 16/500 (3360 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:16:03]
A Pasture was built near Yasodharapura

Turn 17/500 (3320 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:17:10]

Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:17:45]
Yasodharapura finishes: Warrior

Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:17:57]
Yasodharapura begins: Warrior (5 turns)
Yasodharapura grows: 2

Turn 20/500 (3200 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:19:25]

Turn 21/500 (3160 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:20:35]
A Mine was built near Yasodharapura
Yasodharapura finishes: Warrior

Turn 22/500 (3120 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:21:37]
Yasodharapura begins: Settler (13 turns)

Turn 23/500 (3080 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:23:40]

Turn 24/500 (3040 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:23:59]
Tech learned: Bronze Working
Yasodharapura's borders expand

Turn 25/500 (3000 BC) [17-Sep-2008 19:24:52]
Research begun: Mysticism (5 Turns)[/color

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Geezers_SG008_BC3000_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Harbourboy]

Where does the second city go?

What victory condition are we aiming for?

 

[erikthecelt]

Good job Sam, just a point for the future, you can send the warrior scouting and leave the capital open, you don't have to wait for the second warrior to start scouting. That way you get a little more scouting done. That's funny about the copper - looks just like the test game start.

 

[AgedOne]

Thanks Sam_Yeager. The Geezerwagon is rolling

OK. Long-term objectives - culture or religion? Well, culture seems to be more under our control than religion, though they both look interesting. So I would be happy aiming for culture.

To achieve that, we need wonders, multiple religions and shrines, temples and cathedrals, much popping of Gt Artists.

We can start both types in basically the same way, by researching some religious tech towards priesthood (and building the Oracle, slinging us towards ... whatever we decide is most useful)

I've had some very successful starts in practice games (And btw, who would have guessed that the copper was going to be in the identical place in the real game!!?). Generally, tech paths like AH - Myst - BW - Wheel - Poly - Priest - fish - sail - pottery with builds like worker - warrior - Stonehenge - Settler - Axe - Axe - WB - Oracle got me moving very nicely. However, I was aiming more for a religious approach, popping lots of Gt Prophets etc.