SGOTM 08 - Gypsy Kings

[Ronnie1]

I think we need to get a scout or other 2 move unit to explore the islands to the south.

 

[Ronnie1]

Currency -> Music (Free GA) -> Paper -> Edu?

If this is the path we are after...why not Music first...start golden age with free GA to speed up everything after...

WB (new city fish)

We have 1 that will be being back before this 1 can be built I think.

I'd only bulb techs where the bulb isn't enough (not to waste any beakers as we would with bulbing paper)

I agree! Only bulb "full worth" techs.

GM: Tough choice. We might save him or use him and/or the GA from music for Golden Ages. I don't mind setting him to sleep for some decades tbh...

I partially agree here...it is tough choice...possibly settle in shrine city in anticipation of Wall Street.

Thom: Cat -> Phant -> Cat

Do we even need Phants?...against Impi's the Cat/Axe combo might be better.

 

[adrianj]

@Ron - Currency is worth at least 7 or 8 beakers per turn, so I'd favour taking that before Music. The golden age from a music GA will still speed up everything thereafter - in fact the bonus will be greater if our empire is larger (eg, Ulundi as well). So unless we fear the AI will get Music before us, I don't think we need music first.

If we go for Philo sooner rather than later, we could time our golden age so that we can revolt to pacifism and caste at the same time. This would also require converting to a religion (confu). Maybe even throw Representation in there if we head straight for Constitution.

Problem with founding Taoism, is do we think we will even pop a GP ourselves? You can't assign a large number of priests like you can artists/scientists/merchants under caste system, which makes it difficult to purposefully pop them I think. It's entirely likely that an AI would found the tao shrine before we got the chance.

A scout is cheap and there is at least a goody hut down south to pop - I'll squeeze one of them into the build queue.

Optics is definitely going to be a priority, but how much of a priority compared to Constitution / Liberalism? By the time we get the far we might find our buddy Joao has researched it for us (it must be a priority for him, given his UU)

 

[oyzar]

Why would we want paper and edu before philo -> nat -> constitution?

 

[mystyfly]

Problem with founding Taoism, is do we think we will even pop a GP ourselves? You can't assign a large number of priests like you can artists/scientists/merchants under caste system, which makes it difficult to purposefully pop them I think. It's entirely likely that an AI would found the tao shrine before we got the chance.

I repeat myself, I doubt we'll have the AI build us a tao shrine if it founds it. We'd just additionally have to capture the city instead of having it in one of our own.

To get the GPs, we must build AWat.

 

[adrianj]

Why would we want paper and edu before philo -> nat -> constitution?

What is your suggested tech path?
Currency -> Music -> Philo -> Nat -> Const? Other things in that list?

 

[Conquistador 63]

Optics is definitely going to be a priority, but how much of a priority compared to Constitution / Liberalism? By the time we get the far we might find our buddy Joao has researched it for us (it must be a priority for him, given his UU)

Are we confident we'll get MC/Machinery/Compass/Optics from Joao early enough? Even if does go for it (not too sure about that), if he knows only Shaka (who obviously won't have those techs) it is unlikely he'll be willing to trade them. And as hw has pointed out before, Colossus is a cheap (and useful, if even for a short while) wonder for us. I vote for the Optics beeline before the Constitution one. We need to find those missing AI.

 

[oyzar]

Once joao gets optics he'll sail the world though meaning he'll meet other AI's who might have optics. I am not sure the value of meeting other trading partners earlier compared to earlier representation. Maybe someone could sim from a test game(if it was possible to make a test game of our situation), until the point where the optics last path get it and compare?

 

[adrianj]

Are we all happy with going for Currency -> Music in my turn set? If yes, then I'd be about ready to play my set. Is there any other input regarding the rest of my PPP?

I think Colossus is a worthy wonder to pick up. Where will we build it, and when? Yaso seems the obvious choice, but it is occupied with GLib at the moment. Would we switch Thom from building units to build forge/colossus?

 

[hellwitch]

IMO Currency>MC is better. Music GA wont go away so fast so better to get more trade routes and Colosus before Music. Our tech rate is fast enough to take Music first that way too IMO.

Philo is the first thing we will blub and it is almost exactly 1 GS. I agree that Paper&Compass not worth a GS. IMO we better take Paper and Machinary manual and blub partially Edu and PP. The Optic path will need manual research(trade) because we already got Meditation.

 

[oyzar]

How many water tiles are we working? 5 tops... Collosus is not a huge gain... Paying that much hammers(and beakers) for so little seems a bit silly...

 

[mystyfly]

I'm with oyzar regarding colossus. I would partially build it and let the AI finish to get cash but not complete it. I think it's a waste. Better get a proper army, infra, GPs and more important wonders done.

Researchwise I'm with hw.

 

[oyzar]

Why would we want MC if we are not going to build collosus, surely the advantage of getting constitution an few turns earlier is greater than getting MC first? or do we need triemes for defense?

 

[adrianj]

Revised PPP

I'll play until GLib is built (approx 12 turns with the chop).

Capturing Nobamba: Bombard for a turn. If no whipped unit turns up I take it next turn. If Shaka whips I bombard a second time and then take it will the extra two axes arriving.

Techs: Currency -> MC

GP = Confu shrine. GS = bulb philo. GM = sleep.

Yaso Build: Cat -> GLib.
Thom Build: Axe -> Cat -> Axe.
uMgung: granary -> library.
Hari: Cat -> Scout -> Lighthouse
Wat: Library -> Lighthouse
New island city: granary -> lighthouse -> library (whip 2 pop every opportunity)
Nobamba (if we keep it): Granary -> barracks/stable? -> cats/phants

Worker Actions: After Angkor Wat cottage, chop/mine Yaso hill forest to speed up GLib. Then farm over Thom's cottage to allow it to grow to work all the mines. Then start chopping jungles around Wat and uMgung.

 

[adrianj]

Highlights:
Built Great Library in less than 8 turns
I didn't lose a single unit, not even catapults.
We popped a GP.
Scout popped 73 gold from the southern hut.
Capturing Nobamba gave us about 93 gold.
We now have a large army ready to move on Ulundi.

Lowlights:
Angkor Thom had a slave revolt - I paid 10g for the 1 turn revolt, -1 population option.
I wasted 2 worker turns on wayward moving...

Spoiler :

Turn 104, 275 BC: Confucianism has spread in uMgungundlovu.

Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka moves chariot out of Nobamba... Clever boy
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult (5.00) vs Shaka'sArcher (6.12)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Combat Odds: 31.3%
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Archer is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult (5.00) vs Shaka'sAxeman (4.45)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Combat Odds: 80.1%
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Axeman is hit for 20 (70/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Axeman is hit for 20 (50/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Axeman is hit for 20 (30/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Catapult is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman (5.00) vs Shaka'sImpi (2.05)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi is hit for 28 (50/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi is hit for 28 (22/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman has defeated Shaka's Impi!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman (5.50) vs Shaka'sAxeman (2.11)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Combat: +75%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Axeman is hit for 20 (5/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman has defeated Shaka's Axeman!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Ballista Elephant (8.80) vs Shaka'sArcher (1.68)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Archer is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Ballista Elephant has defeated Shaka's Archer!
Turn 105, 250 BC: You have captured Nobamba!!!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman (5.00) vs Shaka'sChariot (4.40)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Combat Odds: 69.9%
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Chariot is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Chariot is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Chariot is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Chariot is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Chariot is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman has defeated Shaka's Chariot!
Turn 105, 250 BC: research back to 100%
Turn 105, 250 BC: The borders of uMgungundlovu have expanded!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi (4.80) vs Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'sBallista Elephant (4.21)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Combat Odds: 70.1%
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Ballista Elephant is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Ballista Elephant is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Shaka's Impi is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Ballista Elephant has defeated Shaka's Impi!

Turn 106, 225 BC: New Island City has been founded.
Turn 106, 225 BC: Confucianism has spread in New Island City.

Turn 108, 175 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 108, 175 BC: The borders of Hariharalaya have expanded!
Turn 108, 175 BC: Zoroaster (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 109, 150 BC: The borders of New Island City have expanded!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'sBallista Elephant (11.60)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Combat Odds: 0.4%
Turn 109, 150 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 109, 150 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 109, 150 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Ballista Elephant has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!

Turn 110, 125 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Nobamba!
Turn 110, 125 BC: The villagers give you gold! You have received 73 gold!
Turn 110, 125 BC: uMgungundlovu has grown to size 3
Turn 110, 125 BC: New Island City has grown to size 2

Turn 111, 100 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Nobamba!
Turn 111, 100 BC: A slave revolt has taken place in the Khmer city of Angkor Thom!
Turn 111, 100 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II) has completed The Great Library!
Turn 111, 100 BC: Mani (Great Prophet) has been born in Yasodharapura (Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II))!
Turn 111, 100 BC: Yasodharapura will grow to size 9 on the next turn
Turn 111, 100 BC: Yasodharapura will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 111, 100 BC: Angkor Wat will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 111, 100 BC: Angkor Wat will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 111, 100 BC: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'sAxeman (7.75)
Turn 111, 100 BC: Combat Odds: 9.1%
Turn 111, 100 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 111, 100 BC: (Fortify: +20%)
Turn 111, 100 BC: (City Barbarian Defense: +25%)
Turn 111, 100 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 111, 100 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 111, 100 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 111, 100 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 111, 100 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 111, 100 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 111, 100 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 111, 100 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 111, 100 BC: Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)'s Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 111, 100 BC: While defending, your Axeman has killed a Barbarian Axeman!

Spoiler :

Yasodharapura begins: Catapult (3 turns)
Angkor Thom begins: Axeman (3 turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near Angkor Wat
Confucianism has spread: uMgungundlovu
Angkor Wat grows: 3
uMgungundlovu finishes: Granary

IBT:

Turn 105/500 (250 BC) [05-Nov-2008 10:47:53]
uMgungundlovu begins: Library (45 turns)
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: City Raider II
While attacking in Zulu territory at Nobamba, Axeman defeats (4.35/5): Zulu Impi (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in Zulu territory at Nobamba, Axeman defeats (3.10/5): Zulu Axeman (Prob Victory: 99.8%)
While attacking in Zulu territory at Nobamba, Ballista Elephant defeats (8.00/8): Zulu Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Captured Nobamba (Shaka)
Nobamba begins: Barracks (51 turns)
While attacking in Khmer territory at uMgungundlovu, Axeman defeats (3.20/5): Zulu Chariot (Prob Victory: 69.9%)
Research begun: Currency (5 Turns)
Yasodharapura grows: 8
Yasodharapura finishes: Catapult
Hariharalaya grows: 6
uMgungundlovu's borders expand

IBT:
While defending in Khmer territory at Nobamba, Ballista Elephant defeats (4.64/8): Zulu Impi (Prob Victory: 29.9%)
Attitude Change: Joao II(Portugal) towards Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)(Khmer), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 106/500 (225 BC) [05-Nov-2008 10:54:42]
Yasodharapura begins: The Great Library (19 turns)
Nagara Jayasri founded
New Island City begins: Granary (15 turns)
Nobamba begins: Archer (26 turns)
Hariharalaya finishes: Catapult
Angkor Thom finishes: Axeman
Angkor Wat grows: 4
uMgungundlovu grows: 2
Confucianism has spread: New Island City

IBT:
Attitude Change: Joao II(Portugal) towards Gypsy Kings (Suryavarman II)(Khmer), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 107/500 (200 BC) [05-Nov-2008 10:59:47]
Hariharalaya begins: Scout (3 turns)
Angkor Thom begins: Catapult (4 turns)
A Village was built near Yasodharapura
Hariharalaya finishes: Scout

IBT:

Turn 108/500 (175 BC) [05-Nov-2008 11:02:49]
Hariharalaya begins: Lighthouse (12 turns)
A Mine was built near Yasodharapura
Tech learned: Currency
Hariharalaya's borders expand
Angkor Wat finishes: Library

IBT:

Turn 109/500 (150 BC) [05-Nov-2008 11:04:13]
Research begun: Metal Casting (4 Turns)
Angkor Wat begins: Lighthouse (9 turns)
Ballista Elephant promoted: Combat II
Angkor Thom finishes: Catapult
Angkor Wat grows: 5
New Island City's borders expand

IBT:
While defending in Khmer territory at Nobamba, Ballista Elephant defeats (8.00/8): Barbarian Axeman (Prob Victory: 99.6%)

Turn 110/500 (125 BC) [05-Nov-2008 11:08:22]
Angkor Thom begins: Axeman (3 turns)
Tribal village results: lots of gold
uMgungundlovu grows: 3
Nobamba finishes: Archer
New Island City grows: 2

IBT:

Turn 111/500 (100 BC) [05-Nov-2008 11:12:30]
Nobamba begins: Barracks (50 turns)
Scout promoted: Guerilla I
Yasodharapura finishes: The Great Library
Mani (Great Prophet) born in Yasodharapura
New Island City finishes: Granary

IBT:
While defending in Khmer territory at Nobamba, Axeman defeats (4.20/5): Barbarian Axeman (Prob Victory: 90.9%)

Turn 112/500 (75 BC) [05-Nov-2008 11:16:47]
Yasodharapura begins: Archer (1 turns)
New Island City begins: Lighthouse (30 turns)

 

[Ronnie1]

From MSN,

Adrian says:
ok. Within 2 turns we will have MC. So what after that?
oyzar says:
well you don't have to play them now
oyzar says:
probably music -> philo next
Ron says:
no reason not to if it is very clear
oyzar says:
i don't see why we are going to build all these new units
Adrian says:
other than tech, I don't think there are all that many decisions to make
Adrian says:
which new units? The only one in the queue is an axe
Ron says:
"i don't see why we are going to build all these new units" = HR Happy
Ron says:
Angkor Wat needs a MP
Ron says:
2 pop whip the LH and follow with a archer and then ad specialists
Adrian says:
why not add specialists straight away. The LH isn't that urgent is it?
Ron says:
no but the archer is for happy....and the LH already has the hammers in it to 2 pop it
Ron says:
need to get the galley back S so we can get the scout to the other landmass
Adrian says:
right, we never talked about the scout/galley
Adrian says:
at the moment the scout is heading down that landmass
Ron says:
i would move the galley S so we can get over to the other ASAP
Adrian says:
ok
Ron says:
there should be more huts there
Adrian says:
anyway, I really should go now
Ron says:
bummer for you
Adrian says:
Can you post these ideas in the forum?
Ron says:
sure
Adrian says:
and if the turn rolls over to Oyzar, that's ok with me

....that being said....

The Roster order is...

munro - on deck
mystyfly - in the hole
Rusten - waiting
Conquistador63 - waiting
adrianj - just played,, well played adrian!!
hellwitch - waiting
oyzar - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - waiting
da_Vinci - skipped by request this inning

 

[hellwitch]

As i said before the Collosus is cheep and good wonder. I'm tired to explain why.
I will just mention that the best tech games on water maps include GLH,Myds and the Collosus and CS slightshot is not always in them. I expect that someone will go for Myds gambit through Oracle and forge while building the GLH and the Colosus manually. If there is such team it will blow us away in terms of teching.

I don't like the idea to go for Constitution because it is not worth the beakers for Nationalism+Constitution. SE have great efect before Lib but when we reach Constitution we must have lots of matured cottages and the lblub lose it power so going for late SE is bad idea. Most of the best playes make hibrid Economies - SE before Lib and mirgate to CE after it. Doing exactly the oposite we will acheive bad results.
We didn't build the Mids so we need to keep the CE (i.e. we must build cottages) and PP is better for that IMO.

But my opinion is that we better go for Compass(% more gold from routes!!)>Machinary>Optics. While blubing Philo with GS. Then we can take Paper manually and go for PP while Edu and Astro need to be lblubed first. Ofcourse we can get the GA from Music first(before the Compass)

The GP could be used for shrine or ???

Oh and one last thing. We will have AT LEAST 5-6 watter tiles becase of the sea food. And when our cities grow up they will need to work watter tiles because we don't have lots of land - for example the Marble city will work water tiles quite soon. We could settler 2 more cities(because of the trde routes) on the south island which will work watter tiles quite fast too.

 

[oyzar]

Hybrid economy is best at pretty much any time in the game... We have a long period where running specialists can still be effective. Cottages outside of our capital would take a long time to pay off, much better after democracy and emacipation. We need to focus on expansion now imo... Given that collosus is so cheap we might build it anyways but it is certanly not a priority... Constitution will speed up our tech speed by a lot as long as we are running any sort of spceialists. Doubling the output from specialists is better than getting 1 more coin from villages and towns as long as we don't have 3 times as many villages and towns compared to specialists.

Our trade routes are not particulary good, while they will get better when we settle more offshore cities(we should probably have done this already), teching compass just to build harbors(+2 commerce) might not be that hot...

How much will optics increase the overall tech speed? I just don't see how it can compete with techs like consitution and later democracy(when we want to start cottage stuff). Teching constitution early means we can easily take democracy from lib if we want(if we have enough cottageable land).

 

[hellwitch]

How much will optics increase the overall tech speed?

Optics will give us contact with the rest of the world => trading techs is quite fast way to research older tech. Don't you think so.

 

[oyzar]

This is monarch, getting more techs faster is not the same as getting to the end of the tech three the fastest...