SGOTM 08 - Gypsy Kings

adrianj · Nov 12, 2008

The missionary that was hanging around was used to spread Confu in uMgung. I apologise if this was the wrong thing to do.

Regarding your builds, I agree with them. Perhaps Yaso could build a monastery instead of the worker?

I don't believe Joao has any hidden modifier to the human player. He does have +2 to a player higher in power than him. Other max modifiers we might get from him are +3 for same civic, +2 for OB, +2 for shared war, (only) +3 for same religion, and if I'm reading this correctly, +2 for bonus resource trade. I think we pretty much need to send him a missionary if we want him friendly.

Rusten · Nov 12, 2008

I agree with Munro as well -- we need both tech speed and GPP speed, so even if cottages might get us somewhere slightly faster it won't be favourable under these conditions.

I don't like farming over the village either. Thom does have enough food to work the hills and there aren't that many grasslands to farm anyway. That village is bringing in 6 commerce with a lot of science multipliers so I want to keep it. If we're lucky we'll find another source of ivory and/or be able to trade for it meaning that we can irrigate from the NW instead.

Builds look fine to me, but I'd squeeze in a monastery in our capital -- that's an amazing building.

Regarding Joao: If we share religion we have the possibility of getting some very good events I think, so converting him is a good idea. With random events we might stay friendly even after switching out of HR.

mystyfly · Nov 13, 2008

I'm also against farming over that village. We probabely should have discussed that matter before we built that cottage but I'd leave it now. These few farms won't make up for it. I doubt production is a big issue (and not nearly as important as research and GPP) anyway.

Sending the missionary to joao is a good idea.

oyzar · Nov 13, 2008

I discussed with rusten and building a monastary before forge in capital seems like a good idea (the research bonus is rather save is such a high yeild city).

Munro · Nov 13, 2008

Monsastery in the capital sounds good to me.

I've also been persuaded by the arguments for leaving the cottage in Yaso (and NOT farming over it) so I agree with canceling the worker actions (should be the first action in the turnset!) and leaving the cottage in place.

Also, when do we need to start worrying about barb galleys - should we push a trireme (or maybe a fogbusting WB)? out of Ankor Thom anytime soon?

Also - do we definitely need 5 new workers? Would we be better for one of those builds to be a settler instead so we can settle the stone island for faster wonders (especially Ankor Wat) and an extra set of 'overseas' trade routes in each of our cities?

Cheers,
Munro

oyzar · Nov 13, 2008

Yes that might be a good idea, but noone before now have come with much input on the builds i suggested... Which city do you think should build settler instead of worker?

Ronnie1 · Nov 13, 2008

It (the settler) could come from Yasa after the Monastary...or we could could build in Wat as it is almost at happy cap also IIRC.

hellwitch · Nov 14, 2008

Well IMO we must build settlers regularly every turnset. There is room for a city up there in the jungle, there are also 2 city spots on that north islan too. As we talk before every city will just speed us up. With Collosus in our hands we will get even more coins from those fish cities.

oyzar · Nov 14, 2008

Builds:
Thom goes axe(in 2 turns, still grow in 3) -> monastary
Capital archer -> worker -> forge
hari worker -> lighthouse
wat lighthouse then settler
nobamba ligthouse until size 2 then worker(whip it).
umung: grow to size 4 then 2 pop whip a worker then continue on the library.

Are these satisfactory then? Should the galley still go down to send the scout south? when do we need to build triemes?

Rusten · Nov 15, 2008

Why would Thom get a monastery, isn't that the production site? The monastery was intended for our capital as it's got a lot of commerce -- other cities might want to dedicate hammers towards expansion as hellwitch mentioned.

oyzar · Nov 15, 2008

They wanted to build missionaries there, though doing it in capital works fine as well obviously...

Builds:
Thom goes axe(in 2 turns, still grow in 3) -> forge
Capital archer -> worker -> monastary
hari worker -> lighthouse
wat lighthouse then settler
nobamba ligthouse until size 2 then worker(whip it).
umung: grow to size 4 then 2 pop whip a worker then continue on the library.

Are these satisfactory then? Should the galley still go down to send the scout south? when do we need to build triemes?

I actually just filled it out wrong, nice that you noticed...

Conquistador 63 · Nov 15, 2008

Why worker in Capital? Isn't it better to get/whip a forge there (after MC is in), then Colossus? Can't monastery wait a little?

Also we are founding Confu shrine with GP, right? Couldn't find any comment on this.

oyzar · Nov 15, 2008

Didn't we make the confu shrine already? And collosus is no big importance, monastary is surely better? We certanly don't want to whip in the capital(big, working mines, it is just bad). The question if we want a worker first is a valid one though, we could just build a monastary imeadiatly...

Ronnie1 · Nov 15, 2008

Where are we going to build Colossus?

If we are not going to build it in Yasa...then I would suggest Thom.

I would get the scout on the big island and then come back after the settler.

We have NOT built shrine yet (no GP until now).

oyzar · Nov 15, 2008

Pretty sure we'll build it in yasa after forge there(which would come after monastary). Question remains though skip the worker in yasa or not?

mystyfly · Nov 15, 2008

Building the colossus in thom isn't a great idea imo as we have a MI there. building it in yaso sounds better.

I'd skip the worker, we'll probabely get a couple for free from shaka if we're lucky...

Munro · Nov 16, 2008

Have been discussing this with oyzar on MSN. Haven't reached a consensus yet (I don't think) but here's my current thinking based on what we've discussed so far.

My thoughts overall:

Don't need quite so many workers
We should build Colossus, Parthenon, HG.
In the short term, working the extra (unused) mines in the capital - for wonders etc - is better than building (and working) more cottages there.
We probably have enough military to finish Shaka.
No point in building or working any cottages outside the capital for now. (With Colossus, water tiles will be better anyway until we have emancipation at least).
Beacuse of the shrine, we are going to want quite a few buildings there - marketplace, grocer, bank etc - but production is going to struggle to keep up. So we should not spend any hammers there on units that could be built elsewhere (e.g. worker).
Chop the Hari / Yaso forest into Hari marketplace.
Give Joao mathematics now, so he can (sooner) research calendar for us, and for the +ve diplo

With that said, I would do the following:

Builds

Capital: archer > monastery > forge > Colossus > Parthenon > HG (or mids?)
Hari: lhouse > marketplace (whip?) > barray
Ankor Tom: axe > forge > archers (MP) and triremes
Ankor Wat: lhouse > settler (Stone Town) > forge > barray / worker (if more not captured from Shaka)
uMgungun: lib > worker (whip) > lib > ? barray / marketplace
Nobamba: lhouse > worker (whip) > barray?

Workers:

Ankor Wat worker roads the jungle 1W of the lake, then chops, then farms (Wat culture expansion in 8 turns allows this) to allow chain irrigation of rice in uMgungun
Yaso workers (x2) chop / mine the Ankor Wat grasslands hill (to work instead of cottage)
Then Yaso workers split up: 1 goes to chop Hari forest (part build rd 1W of capital en route), the other goes to help with chain irrigation of uMgungun (then continue in that direction to improve Nobamba cows, roading as we go)
After Hari chop, worker then builds grasslands cottage for capital to work after 2nd pop expansion (once extra archer MP from Tom is ready)
See screenshot below:

Joao:

Once we take Bulawayo, we should get trade routes to Joao
At that point, let's trade / gift him as many health resources as he'll accept; maybe even the iron too since we won't have much use for it in the short term at least -> to get Joao friendly as quickly as possible (and the more resources he is getting from us, the faster we get the 'years of resources' +ve diplo points)
Note - we can also hook the pigs (if Joao doesn't have any) after the cottage in Yaso, for an extra resource gift.
Also, gift him Mathematics now, so he has the option of research calendar (with luck) for trade to us
With +2 OB, +2 resources, +4 Hered rule, +1 peace, +4 fair trade we should be able to get him up to friendly without the missoinary (though monastery still worthwhile for +5 beakers in capital, and for spreading religion later for shrine cash and pacificsm bonus)

Other:

Build the shrine in Hari
Galley makes a 10-turn round trip to drop off the scout on the next island and returns to take settler (and 1 archer MP from Tom) to Stone Town site (1NE of stone)
Then another galley round trip to drop off a worker to improve the stone (for HG etc)
We should have enough troops to finish off shaka (stack of 14 now, 15 with the axe being built in Tom)
We wil want to start building barrays soon; stone will be hooked in 20-25 turns and we will have 10 cities by then so HG is extremely good deal (cost -ve hammers if you count each +1 pop as 30 hammers from whipping);
We are going for Music next after MC right? (Then philo)?

adrianj · Nov 16, 2008

After some MSN discussion with Oyzar and Munro:

Regarding our civics changes, at the minimum we want Pacifism and Representation. Pacifism will require 2 turns of revolution (1 for civic, 1 for Confu), and then another 1 for Rep. Ideally these would all occur during a golden age.

However, we would also like to have built MoM before our golden age to make it last longer, requiring calendar.

So things would follow in this sort of order:
Get free Music GA -> Learn Calendar -> Learn Philo -> Build MoM -> Start GA -> Convert to Confu / Revolt to Pacifism.

At present we don't really have a city ready to build MoM, so teching calendar too early doesn't provide much benefit. So giving Joao some time to research it for us is useful (and time for him to become friendly), but we shouldn't wait for him for too long, and just self-research it if we need to.
So a tech path of:
MC -> Music -> Philo -> (check for trade, if not available) Calendar -> Nationalism -> Constitution.

There was some discussion that adding calendar to the tech order would ultimately make constitution later, but with the earlier GA, and earlier pacifism this will be made up for somewhat.

oyzar · Nov 16, 2008

Played until the capture of Bulawayo on turn 119. Some decisions remain for the turn. Music is in next turn so need to decide on what to go next(i am leaning towards calendar then philo actually). The island city should grow in 2, need to build something other than the lighthouse one of those turns to be able to two pop whip it so it can use the overflow on something useful... The workboat is on the way to the island city unless someone have a better idea... Lost a total of 2 cats and an archer taking out capital + the city on the copper hill(one cat at each city, first lost at 75% odds(rest of the odds against that city were trival, spent one turn to bombard though), second one had very low odds, but lucky the CR3 axe won at 65% then the phant at 80% then CR3 axe at 70% or so, taking the city without further losses).

autolog:

Spoiler :

upload log:

Spoiler :

Munro · Nov 17, 2008

Nice work oyzar!

Haven't checked the save yet, but did we gift Maths to Joao? What's the reasoning for calendar before philo?

SGOTM 08 - Gypsy Kings

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