SGOTM 08 - Gypsy Kings

Munro · Jan 31, 2009

Sounds like a good plan. One thought though - I remember reading somewhere that you need at least two cities (on the same overseas landmass) so visigoth (which one is that?) might not be an option...

In that case, Stone Town and the other city on that island could be used as a fallback option instead..

hellwitch · Feb 1, 2009

Damed. Everything has messed up. We have peace deal with Ghandi for 5 more turns!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?! Why have we accept such deals(any trade deal in BtS include 10 peace deal) when we are supposed to attack him???????

I had played 1 turn and just when i tried to declere i found we can't declare war!!!!

I will transport troops on Roman lands to be able to attack from thre with more troop vs more cities at once.

edit:
And AJ dont take this as blaming. There fault is of the whole team that nobody didn't though about the issue to post that this could be a problem.

As i said i could handle the situation and to not loose war speed with using the turns to prepare syncronus attack on more Ghandi's cities using Roman land

mystyfly · Feb 1, 2009

Not every deal includes a peace treaty; only one-sided trades (not encluding gifts from you to the AI that you decided to make).

hellwitch · Feb 1, 2009

I have played 11 turn. We got the three Ghandi cities and now he is can capitulate.

Because we need speed on our conquest IMO We better get his capitulation and attack HRE. HRE is in war with bodica and it is backward and his nomerous units wont be problem now.

the spiler was too long(over 3k rows) and i was unable to post it.

I whne on Corp>asembly>biology>medicine. Currently we are 3 turn from getting medicine(at 100%) but we dont have gold on the treasury so it will be 4 or 5 turns away.

I have also defied a resolution for stopping the war.

adrianj · Feb 1, 2009

Ah, I think I know what happened...

When Charlemagne attacked Ghandi the AP resolution came up to end the war vs Ghandi. This caused everyone, including us, to re-sign a peace treaty with Ghandi.

It was my understanding - and I believe I am correct - that new trade deals such as resources for gold cannot be peacefully cancelled within 10 turns. But you can declare war at any stage.

The only other time you can't cancel a peace treaty is if you have some sort of one-way deal, eg, give in to a demand. This didn't happen during my turnset.

hellwitch · Feb 2, 2009

Ok AJ. So it just the AP cause this trouble.

I think i did manage to compensate the lost turn with taking 3 cities on turn Number 6. And the rest 4 turns ware used ti take Delhi and Bombay.

I can continue 9 turns more or i can stop here. R1?

IMO further war with Ghandi is useless because his remaining cities don't have much land - most of them are costal and he also got rifles before 2 turn and the progress will be slow.

On other side HRE is in war and don't have even Gunpowder tech - and it is very vunerable from attack by us. Most of his units are in Bodica land(he took two of her cities).

Currently we have AL but no Infantry because i started Factories/Plants everywhere where the factory will be produced in less than 12-13 turns.

The Roman is strong and IMO we better attack him with good stack of infantry or we could face very though fights(most of our army is Cav and Cuir.).

I didn't know that in BtS you can't attack with siege wepons amfibiously.

I had started the WS in our srine city(it will take around 20 turns) and the Pentagon in Ulundi(9 turns).

IMO our tech path must be finish Medicine(need six hospitals for Red Cross)>Elecricity>Radio>Mass media(to be able to start the expensive wonders earlier) then Facism(st. Rushmore)> Refri>Combins>Rocketary>.... because the Corp. can be build in 1 turn if we have the Great Person.
About Knossos - i ave sarted two Galleons on the stone island which are supposed to bring forces there.
I also have one Galleon heading with settler up to the silver(we will need the happiness). There is one worker on lone island on the way to the future silver city - it was supposed to be with the settler bit barbs show up and have drop him to make room for a rifle.

What more. We have lot of Airship now with with Cav make good combination for fast attack(without reducing enemy city diffense ) but i fond them week if we face rifles.
So I think we have enough of them. All the new troops must be artilery and Infantry. Later Rome will be best attacked by sea. I think tat on land we will have Ghandi and HRE as vassals when we attack Rome. For the Celt city we need IMO two Galleons will be enough. We could take something more of Boudica if we want to make her to capitulate just at the end.

PS for AJ.
Currenly i didn't have big trouble with this but yo better to leave on "Move to" order units when you finish your turns set because this could bring troubles to the next player.

Conquistador 63 · Feb 2, 2009

Ron has the final word, but I suggest HW continues to play the 9 turns he offered to.
Have we found out what will be faster, domination or conquest (by capitulation)? If we go for domination, will we be missing Gandhi's remaining land if we accept his capitulation right now? And if we don't kill him, will we be facing too much unhappiness in his (and other hindu) cities, from "join motherland" and maybe from defying AP resolutions "return city to righteous owner"? If that is ok then HW is right, get gandhi capitulation now.

adrianj · Feb 2, 2009

I think Ghandi capitulation is good because he could prove a useful ally in our warring with the others.

My biggest concern with vassals would be if they manage to capture an important city - we wouldn't be able to take it back. Not a reason to not take vassals at all, but definitely keep a close eye on them when they are fighting alongside us.

I don't think we would miss Ghandi or Charlemagne land for a domination win if we vassalise them. We can always take Roman or Celtic lands if necessary. Particularly Celtic lands - shouldn't take too long.

In the interest of keeping things moving, I also agree HW should continue another 9 turns or so.

Ronnie1 · Feb 2, 2009

I am fine with hw continuing 9 more turns.

The only problem with capitulation is that IF that civ should build another wonder...it is very difficult to get it from them as you would have to somehow get them to a position where they would be dropped from the vassal state.

IF they have no holy cites and they are beaten down to where they can't build anything else effectively...then vassal away!

adrianj · Feb 2, 2009

Ronnie1 said:
I am fine with hw continuing 9 more turns.

The only problem with capitulation is that IF that civ should build another wonder...it is very difficult to get it from them as you would have to somehow get them to a position where they would be dropped from the vassal state.

IF they have no holy cites and they are beaten down to where they can't build anything else effectively...then vassal away!

This is a good point. If we vassalise Ghandi and he improved in tech, we might have a situation where he manages to found a corporation.

IIRC we can't found the corps while in State Property, so I assumed the game plan was to wait till close to the end using Cristo Redentor to switch to Free Market and found them all in one turn. Hmmm, come to think of it, Cristo Redentor would be excellent as it also reduces the time between civic changes to only 1 turn - so don't need to wait till the end.

Holy cities are much more predictable as we can make sure we have captured them already. However - we'll have a real problem if the AP decides to return an important city to it's 'rightful' owner.

Maybe we are better off eliminating Ghandi entirely... Remove the chance of his cities flipping back, and giving us more AP votes.

hellwitch · Feb 3, 2009

IMO Ghandi wont be any of a problem.
Who said we need to give him all our techs?
With the remaining cities and in war almost all the time he is supposed to build rifles.
His millitary is almost none now and i will e supprise to see even a single unit on offense on the next 10 turns.
Except the HRE capitol and Viena all other cities we need are quite awqy from Ghandi.

About the victory condition - we gain half of our vassal land as ours. The AI with really lot of land is HRE . Roman can be capitulated too if we take his 3 cities we need. Same for Bodica. I also bein to think that vassalize is the fastest way to win as conquest as domination. The conquest is more predictable but the domination is also quite predictable when will be achieved after a capitulation.

Why do you think we will get anything from prev Ghandi cities except the land?
IMO after about 30 turn the game will be over and getting 1 or 2 units from Ghandi's cities doesn't matter.
We will take Mass Media in no more that 12-13 turns i hope and this will open the last of the expensive wonders(st. Rushmore is not that expensive).
About West Point - we still dont have lvl 6 unit - can i use our next GG to make our medic over 26 exp.?
About Great People - we still need 2 GP nd 2 GE if i get it right.
About happiness i hope the silver will help as the happy wonders we are oing to build(Hollywond, Broadwayand Rock'n'Roll).
We are way over the pop limit even now so i really consider going into slavery at the end as the best solution. We can whip and that way all the Wonders could be done few more turns earlier at the end(but this will be out of my turn set).

The only tough fight will be with Rome because they have a stack which can hit us somewhere - Maybe in India.

hellwitch · Feb 4, 2009

Because of lack of time( currently 1 turn need 20-30 minutes) i have played only one turn today. I haven't uploaded because i will continue tommorow. But just to inform you:

I've got Ghandi capitulation + one of the island city and we are now at 30% land.
I've attacke HRE on the next turn and take Viena - one of the needed cities.

Edit:
We got very bad luck - GA when we had 77% for GP and 11% for GE.

We need to consider what to do with this GA. We will get 2 more Great Persons till the end of the game.

adrianj · Feb 5, 2009

Bulb for Radio or Mass Media? Probably not worth a lot, but the GA probably isn't useful for much else.

I assume we don't have enough great persons to spare for a GAge? the GAge would be helpful for the wonder building we still need to do. But I'm predicting we can't spare the great persons needed for corps.

hellwitch · Feb 7, 2009

I have played 10 turns. HRE's cities from our "list" are ours.
We could use the GA for culture bomb somewhere.

My proposal is to skip Conbinsion for now as we don't have GE but 2 GS. We better go for Rocketary and Plastics at the end depending how long we will need for the victory.

In millitary mean we need to capture only the 3 Roman cities( and Bodica city if we got 2 GPs next).

Be aware that Perical is Roman vassal and declaring to Rome will one a very long war front!!! I have started to accumulate Infantry and arltilery for the invasion vs Rome. The attack vs Rome will be best done by sea because 2 of the cities are just 1 tile from the sea. On the land front we better be on diffence. I dont know if we need more land from HRE. We could vasalize him(i'm afraid to nott achive domination too early) or just to stop the fight and later if we need his land to conquer him.

Now on the next turn there are 2 HRE cities on the celtic border. IMO we better raze them because the celt culture will dominate there.

IMO the tech path must be: finish Radio(this turn) > Facisim> Refri..>Rocketary> and if we have time: Industrialism>Plastics.

hellwitch · Feb 7, 2009

the LOg:

Spoiler :

hellwitch · Feb 7, 2009

Spoiler :

hellwitch · Feb 7, 2009

Spoiler :

Conquistador 63 · Feb 7, 2009

Very good job, hellwitch! Who is playing next?

hellwitch said:
I have played 10 turns. HRE's cities from our "list" are ours.
We could use the GA for culture bomb somewhere.

My proposal is to skip Conbinsion for now as we don't have GE but 2 GS. We better go for Rocketary and Plastics at the end depending how long we will need for the victory.
note: Combustion is a pre-req for PLastics
In millitary mean we need to capture only the 3 Roman cities( and Bodica city if we got 2 GPs next).

I dont know if we need more land from HRE. We could vasalize him(i'm afraid to nott achive domination too early) or just to stop the fight and later if we need his land to conquer him.
Now on the next turn there are 2 HRE cities on the celtic border. IMO we better raze them because the celt culture will dominate there.Note: he will vassalize and give us one of the celtic border cities - maybe we should accept it??

IMO the tech path must be: finish Radio(this turn) > Facisim> Refri..>Rocketary> and if we have time: Industrialism>Plastics.

Mass Media, Fascism, Refri, Rocketry, and if we have time Combustion, Indu, Plastics?

adrianj · Feb 7, 2009

Excellent stuff HW. It's great that we're on track to finish within the deadline

Is it safe to say that the required number of tiles for domination will not change at this point in the game? In which case we should be able to count the number of tiles needed, and determine if it is safe to vassalize Charlemagne - with enough tiles to spare to have the 3 Roman cities as well.

It is probably also worth testing whether or not conquered cities need to come out of revolt before the wonders they have are added to our score. Anybody know about this? My assumption is that we would get the score immediately, but you know what they say about assumptions. Would be easy to test with WorldBuilder anyway.

I don't have time to do these counts/tests now - but I'll get onto it within a day or two if nobody else has.

Conquistador 63 · Feb 7, 2009

Number of tiles for Dom *could* change (for less, but I don't know by how much) if the AI creates a colony - not at all impossible but IMO very unlikely - the only AI who has 2 cities in an offshore island is Rome, but those are very close to their mainland. But in worst case we could give away cities or liberate our own colony, reducing our land tile count.

Wonders (and city pop, but irrelevant in this game) do count for score when the cities they're in are under revolt.

SGOTM 08 - Gypsy Kings

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