SGOTM 08 - Smurkz

[Backwards Logic]

Yea, I too was considering the GLH, especially since from day one I was promoting we get it after the Great Library is finished. However, we'd have to delay the National Epic to get it in right after GL is finished. So, the only really bad thing I see is a delay in GP, but on the more positive side either way we fund our economy. We get the GLH, and we get extra trade routes, we miss and we get a nice boost to the treasury. With the capital pretty much having all of its infrastructure, I don't see any reason to not gamble on the GLH after GL is done.

 

[Methos]

I agree with the GLH due to this map. Seems like a very wise choice.

 

[unkle]

Basically Niklas has done the spreadsheet I was unable to make , which is running 2sci asap to speed up academy and research, while getting ready to whip anything before GLib starts.

GLH is good for sure but getting it will be tough since it is not sped up by anything. So if we miss it, we get gold at the expense of other things (like troops).

Getting another worker would be great, as always.

On the spreadsheet there is no Academy bonus on research, which if I get it, should make Lit comes one turn earlier ? 182+70*1.75 = 304, enough for Lit. still do not know if this is good since we want to time that with whip+Marble I guess.

 

[Niklas]

The Torch is a good investment yes. But can we get it? In the games I've looked at it's built between some time between turn 90 and turn 130. The fastest we could build it in our capitol is around turn 115, costing us roughly 300 GPP from the delayed NE. That's quite severe.

Hari could build it (at the expense of a barracks, and muddying the gene pool for GEs - though we won't get that many of those anyway) right after Pyramids and be done by turn 100, a much safer date but unit production will suffer of course. Depending on what we want to do with Harapura, it might be able to get the Torch around that time too, probably a bit later.

unkle, I tried to add in the academy bonus on that turn specifically, that's why it says 70 and not 50. So I doubt we could get Lit before 90 - and like you say it would be of no use since we must ensure that we have Marble when we get that large overflow from the whip, and we don't have that until 90 no matter what.

Btw, one thing to note is that we're currently at close to 100 gold, and making -4 gpt. With growing towns that will likely be -5 gpt for a long while, which means we could probably run at 100% research for a bit less than 20 turn if we want to retain some kind of treasury. It's now 19 turns to Literature, assuming nothing unexpected happens (like we meet someone who could trade us Mysticism). I think we should go for it now at 100%, and risk having to turn down the rate a bit later on, or possibly run a turn at 0% again.

What do you think about the plans I've posted? Faster research but a slight delay in production, or increased production but a slight delay in research? Personally I'm leaning towards the former, but I would probably change my mind in negative time if Shaka comes around with an army...

 

[Xcalibrator]

I also like the GLH, but worry about Shaka and our delayed axes. Could we quickly build a scout and post him at the isthmus so we can at least see a stack coming in time to build defenses? We'll eventually get our exploring warrior back (if he survives), but I think that's too long.

 

[Niklas]

We can't really "quickly" build anything...

We have a warrior who is currently fogbusting in the jungle. We could post him closer to Shaka's borders (we shouldn't have that much problems with barbies anyway) to get the overlook on the isthmus that you're asking for - perhaps not such a bad idea.

 

[Xcalibrator]

We get our first axe on turn 73, right? In that case, I like the idea of sending the warrior who's currently fog-busting/guarding near the 3rd city out west to keep an eye on Shaka on the isthmus. I'm also happy with the build plans through turn 81, so I vote that unkle play at his earliest convenience. Not that I'm at all impatient to get the Pyramids.

 

[Backwards Logic]

Alright, after a discussion with Niklas, here's what we have come up with for a long-term viable plan, guaranteed to satisfy almost everybody!

For everyone wanting the GLH, Niklas has planned out Harapura and found we can get in complete on turn 105. This will allow us to continue with the NE in capital. Decision here is if it is a worthwhile gamble. As pointed out before, the AI do build it roughly around this time. I say go for it.

As for you axemen people, since Hari will lose the two plains hills to Harapura to build GLH, it will whip a barracks then spit out axemen. Mids will be done by this point.

The capital will continue to build Great Library and the National Epic to continue to produce Great People.

As for teching, I have proposed to Niklas that after Literature is done we tech construction for catapults. We already have math for its prerequisites for it. And after that, since we will likely want jumbos in our endeavor against Shaka, HBR to build them. This tech is expensive, and is open for discussion. Barring IW for Iron (and no guarantee of that in our current borders either; we will not have any city raider units that give us a considerable combat edge (CR promoted axemen just won't have enough to go against Shaka's C1 (possibly 2) axemen).

So those are some long-term thoughts. Comments?

 

[Niklas]

As BL says, we discussed this on IM and I feel that Harapura is probably the best site for the GLH. It leaves Yosmurkzhappy to build the NE, it doesn't mess up the GPP pool of either town, and we can't really hope to get it faster in either of the other towns. So if we want to go for it (not saying we are, not saying we aren't) then I think Harapura should get the honor. So should we or should we not? I'm on the fence.

Regarding Hari, I agree with BL that we should whip the Barracks (assuming we want to have it as a military production center). Hari's big problem in the short run though, is that Harapura will need the plains hills (if we build GLH), Yosmurkzhappy will want the grass hill for a long time, and we don't have any free workers to improve any other tiles for Hari to work. So whipping makes sense, but the question is if we want to speedily get out another worker (from where??) to improve the land. All our towns are somewhat constrained in their growth due to this.

If Harapura goes for GLH, Hari or Yo could do the worker. If we do it in Hari, it delays the barracks and subsequent axe production by a bunch of turns, a quick count says 5. If we do it in Yo, we would have to build it between turn 83 and 90, cancelling the plans for half an Axeman (prebuilt 15 hammers to 87) and our second Galley (90). I'm not sure which is most reasonable, or if we want to continue with the crew we already have.

Note that the Marble Isle worker needs a transport home on turns 91-92, so either our current galley must head home or we need that one that's planned in Yo.

Here are my suggested plans for Hari and Harapura:

 

[r_rolo1]

Looks good... well, if we can stay in shaka good will that is ( unkle, pls confirm that shaka is not with hands full, btw :/ ). Mids and GLH are almost a thousand hammers and that is quite a hefty investement ......

About the galley... we can still lose some turns exploring the south ( and please , please , don't cut the corners in exploring: we can miss a passage to something valuable because of that ) and then come back and pick something to explore. This map looks to heavily WBed and I would not be surprised that some goodie to be hidden one tile to the mainland .Not mentioning that we should start thinking on fogbusting the sea.....

If we get the GLH we should consider colonizing somewhere near the southern fish ( the one 2 S of the marble ). But that is for far latter

 

[Xcalibrator]

Bit of a gamble on the GLH, but probably worth it. As for what to research after Lit, Alphabet probably isn't high on the list unless we meet some other civs very soon. I'm leaning toward Metal Casting before Construction; forges are nice to have for production and happiness (especially with a gold resource) and they allow the Colossus, which may be at least as valuable as the GLH (if we don't find other civs soon) and pretty cheap to build since we have copper. With a forge we can also run an Engineer specialist.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

GLH would be very nice... let's go for it. At worst, we end up with a pile of gold and get to run 100% science for longer.

I now have an MSN account - it's chris_shaffer *a*t* yahoo *d*o*t* com.

r_rolo1 is correct, in BtS, the barbarians will come destroy our nets, so we should keep a defender and/or fogbust.

p.s. my computer is working again, so please list me as an active player. No hurry though.

For research, is there anything wrong with iron working?

 

[Backwards Logic]

IW wouldn't be a bad alternative to tech either - it reveals iron and if we're lucky could give us a production boost should some be nearby. Again, it's more of 'when do we want to attack Shaka.' I think long-term the beakers would be better spent on HBR for a Jumbos/axemen/cats attack rather than a swordsman/axeman/cats attack, but that's just me. Also, IW is a better trade target than HBR - in my experience the AI don't like to part with HBR cheaply compared to IW.

As for Metal Casting - forges are definitely a huge boost, but the tech is rather expensive. Running an extra engineer in a forged up Hari would boost both its production and GE pool significantly, which can't be overlooked. Also, putting a forge in Harapura would allow for Colossus to be built there, so we would have dedicated GS (Yozsmurkzhappy), GE (Hari) and GM (Harapura), something that long-term would yield significant benefits besides the wonder effects themselves. Obviously, teching metal casting sooner than later is a good idea, as the AI tend to beeline it to a certain extent, but I would urge it not to be completed before GLH is finished in Harapura. Why? Besides getting the forges up (expensive, but worth the cost), we could not start Colossus until GLH is finished in Harapura as to not spoil our Great People pools elsewhere.

Just a random aside: I was a tad bit drunk when I typed this, so if there are any sentences where words are slightly out of place please blame the beer and not me

 

[Niklas]

First things first: Chris, excellent news! Glad to have you back for real (and with an MSN too!). I'll slot you in at the end of the first revolution, i.e. right after unkle and On Deck! If for some reason you think that's too early, just say so and I'll move you.

rolo, good point on not cutting corners. As for Shaka, we can't see if he has his hands full since we have no one we could potentially pit him against.

If we get the GLH then the cost of establishing new towns will drop significantly. With Colossus too, even more so. We should try to settle a few while we can still whip, to get a Granary and LH out early.

For IW, the only thing wrong with it is that I'd rather trade for it. Several AIs are bound to have it by now, if only we could meet them. MC is the tech I would have personally picked, both for the reasons already stated with Colossus, forges and Engineers, but also for the all-important Trireme. We can expect a lot of pirate galleys, and defending with galleys will not work long-term. Having a Trireme or two guarding our nets would mean a lot.

The fact that Dumbos require HBR make Construction a bit less attractive to me at this point. Only Axes and Cats won't conquer Shaka, and HBR is another tech I would rather trade for. So the answer to "when do we want to conquer Shaka" is likely "have patience" for now.

I'd like to bring yet another suggestion to the table, just to get it out there - Drama. Not for itself, but because I'm of a mind to bulb Philosophy with one of our GS that we'll get. Though IIRC in BtS a GS would favor Alphabet over Philosophy (checking - yes) so we'd need that too. Philosophy is a very nice tech to bulb for several reasons, assuming we can get it first. One, it gives us a religion, for happiness and the ability to run religion civics. Two, speaking of which, it gives us Pacifism, which we may not want to run immediately while Shaka is still alive, but we likely want it sooner rather than later. Three, AIs tend to downprioritize it a lot if the religion has already been taken. That means in particular that the later race for Liberalism will be a walk-over for us. Four, it gives us access to Angkor Wat, which would allow us to generate a few Great Prophets for the shrines the AIs won't build for us.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Based on the espionage points, I don't think Shaka knows anyone except us. As best I can tell, he's devoted 100% of his espionage points toward us.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Another thing Drama enables is Music, for a free Great Artist, who could found Civilized Jewelers.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Regarding the spreadsheets, the GLH is only 200 hammers, not 250. Does that affect where we'd want to build it? And remind me of the whip penalty when building Wonders . With the whip, we could get it around turn 98 in Harapura

 

[Niklas]

Oh, it is? It is!

That's nice, and it only reinforces that Harapura is the best site. Whip penalty is half, so the best we could hope for is whipping 3 pop for 45 hammers. That suggests turn 100 as a reasonable completion date, or turn 102 if we skip the whip. Note that my sheet above for Harapura is not correct, we will be in Anarchy on turn 86 so everything after that should be pushed one turn further. Still, if turn 100 is possible then I say we try for it.

We desperately need another worker though. We badly need the forested hill by Yo mined, and the same with the grass hill next to Harapura, as well as the grass hill south of Hari. Yo and Harapura have 1F 2H tiles they can work while waiting (forested hills and dumbos respectively), costing 1 hammer per turn of waiting. Hari has no such replacement and will cost 2 hpt while waiting (assuming we work the unmined hill, probably we won't, favoring some other tile). I'll have a look at some worker plans beyond turn 86 to see what would be needed.

 

[Niklas]

According to what would be optimal for the plans as presented:
* Harapura needs the grass hill mined by turn 90, though could use the Dumbos for a while if we can't get it that early. Predicted 205 hammers on turn 100 (using whip) if we have the hill, so there's some slack, but not incredibly much. Turn 95 is the latest if we want GLH on turn 100.
* Hari needs a replacement grass hill mined from turn 89 for the one that needs to go back to the capitol at that point. That's not really doable unless we throw all our available workers to the task, which would be a waste. But Hari has no replacement tile to work, it could work a plains hill on turn 89 but Harapura will need both from turn 90.
* Yo must have both forests chopped by turn 95 at the latest, and the mine up as fast as possible. We will have GLib on turn 96 even if we delay that mine until after GLib is complete, but the loss of hammers will delay NE down the line. To get NE on turn 106 without whipping, we need that mine on turn 93 at the latest.

I suggest we build another worker from Hari after Pyramids, completed on turn 89. We would whip that instead of the barracks, but still have enough overflow to complete the Barracks on the turn after. With 4 workers, here's a suggestion for a plan that tries to minimize the losses according to the constraints above:

This plan fails to achieve the goal to have the hill by Yo mined on turn 93 at the latest, which will mean a delay of NE (unless we whip). I consider that the smallest price to pay out of the possible options. Please have a look and see if you can improve on it.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Definitely agree we need a 4th worker ASAP, and your plan looks good. Also agree we need barracks and an axe or two from Hari, but looking farther ahead... The Parthenon was mentioned a couple times way back. It's pricey, but we have marble and we're going to have at least 2 (or3) cities churning out a respectable number of GPPs per turn; a 50% bonus would help all of them.