SGOTM 08 - XTeam

KillerCane's opening sequence starts with Fishing before AH to be able to start a workboat right after the worker. But this means mining gold before pasturing cows. I generally prioritize food over gold at the outset unless going for a religion. KC, can you convince us of the wisdom of Fishing first? Either way, I can stop after those first two techs are done to further discuss Bronze Working.
I would prioritize food as well.

Any thoughts about what the scout should accomplish in my turnset? I guess looking for a second city location, hopefully one that can build a workboat for the fish? Maybe finding an AI to attack? So, east or west?
A quick dash to the Gold Hill would seem like the best first step as it will reveal the most tiles fastest. It appears that there may be more tiles to the west, but appearances can be deceiving!! :mischief:

If on the Gold hill, things look promising, then I would check it out.

We do need to look for a second city site, but meeting AI and finding their homes is important as well. Who knows, Copper could pop up under our capital and we could send an Axe out for a home visit... :hammer:
(Just recalling past SGOTM's) ;)
 
You do Fishing so you dont lose the hammers into the workboat after the worker is finished and you dont lose worker turns. You can of course build a warrior but that delays getting to size 3 with a wb. So the idea is you gain food from being able to use the workboated clam sooner. If you pasture first, you gain a turn IIRC but you also gain a growth turn from the workboat getting completed quicker, again IIRC.

Seems like you improved on killercane's opening sequence and even got the Academy
Well they were different games :lol::lol:. Seriously I will try to look at some more variations later, such as high hammer AH, BW, Writing->slingshot w/ no fishing and heavy chop around start area and use chop into settlers while growing.

Also, we need to evaluate ToA+Great Lighthouse combo and work that into build orders. Not everyone has played the test game yet have they so its still premature to start or is it?

If someone wanted to move the scout to the gold hill that would be great. You never know what you might find by moving. I would move twice for a plains hill and good food bonus, especially some pigs (no fishing needed then).
 
Now for a more insane idea. Why not settle on the cows? This eliminates the immediate need for animal husbandry, and allows Fishing->Pottery to build our cheap granaries and easy access to the fish. We are expansive so the health loss with no fresh water is minimal. With the research saved from no AH, I researched sailing and masonry to open Lighthouse. CS slingshot in 900 BC (6 turns after Shannon's nice game). Another city, more workers, NO forests, but Great Lighthouse and Oracle built with 11 pop and 65 bpt.

The only thing I dont like about Shannon's proposed start is only 2 cities. I think you can whip a couple of settlers there however and take those size 6s down to size 3 and have 4. Can someone play a settle on the cow game and lets compare those?
 
killercane said:
Seriously I will try to look at some more variations later, such as high hammer AH, BW, Writing->slingshot w/ no fishing and heavy chop around start area and use chop into settlers while growing.

Sounds good. I think we should consider some more options before deciding on how to open the game. It sounds like the quality of the 2nd city site has some influence on the date of the slingshot.

killercane said:
Also, we need to evaluate ToA+Great Lighthouse combo and work that into build orders.

It would be nice to have at least the GL so that we can better finance overseas cities.

killercane said:
Not everyone has played the test game yet have they so its still premature to start or is it?

I'm still working on a small analysis tool for predicting E(t)/t for different tech paths so I haven't had time to look at the test game. I think CP said he would be back tomorrow and I would like to hear his opinion as well before we start playing.

killercane said:
If someone wanted to move the scout to the gold hill that would be great. You never know what you might find by moving. I would move twice for a plains hill and good food bonus, especially some pigs (no fishing needed then).

Maybe Shannon should start us off by moving the scout and posting?
 
Not everyone has played the test game yet have they so its still premature to start or is it?
Sounds good. I think we should consider some more options before deciding on how to open the game. It sounds like the quality of the 2nd city site has some influence on the date of the slingshot.
Yes, this is what I wanted to hear. Let's hold back. I'm in no hurry to start.

It would be nice to have at least the GL so that we can better finance overseas cities.
We have found the Great Lighthouse to be very useful in the past. :thumbsup:

I think CP said he would be back tomorrow and I would like to hear his opinion as well before we start playing.
Yes, I believe he will be back tomorrow.

Maybe Shannon should start us off by moving the scout and posting?
To the Gold Hill? :)
 
You do Fishing so you dont lose the hammers into the workboat after the worker is finished and you dont lose worker turns. You can of course build a warrior but that delays getting to size 3 with a wb. So the idea is you gain food from being able to use the workboated clam sooner. If you pasture first, you gain a turn IIRC but you also gain a growth turn from the workboat getting completed quicker, again IIRC.

I tried Fishing first and got the workboat and Pop3 1 turn slower, BW on the same turn, and first warrior slower. It seems getting to Pop2 faster with cows allows higher production and faster workboat.

Settling on cows seems promising.
 
I moved the scout. We're on a peninsula ending a few tiles to the east. There is another fish to the east that could be captured in our BFC to make 4 food resources.
 

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This presents an interesting problem. If we settle on the Cow, it will keep us from using that fish. If there is another sea resource near the jungles up north, it has the possibility of a GP farm.

Settling the forest east of the Cow will give us a food powerhouse for a capital but short us a bit in hammers. We would have three hills and the quarried marble (1f, 3h, 2c) We could then connect the Marble by building a fort south of the Marble tile. :hmm:

EDIT - At least we know to recon to the west! :D
 
OK, in my test game, I got a great spy and build scotland yard and then got 2 more great spies:rolleyes:....must not do this in the real game. I tried settling on cows and a wonder building game to 1050ad and only had 40/310 points. (scotland yard doesn't count)

At this point, was ready to try to shift to war setting, but I'm a bit behind in techs...couln't get trades that I wanted. I'm just starting machinery and most AI 2 to 4 turns from finising it according to espionage.

Save file attached if anyone wants to look at it, but I know I'm not the best player, so I doubt anyone would need my turn log for it.
 

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I tried Fishing first and got the workboat and Pop3 1 turn slower, BW on the same turn, and first warrior slower. It seems getting to Pop2 faster with cows allows higher production and faster workboat.

Settling on cows seems promising.
Sounds good!

I really like settling on the cow. But... that fish is tempting and will help make settlers easier. We also lose some hammers from chops by moving, and the marble will take a bit longer to connect than the 12 worker turns for fort+road. Overall by moving, 4 hill equivalents is ok in a wonder building game so I guess it is hammer neutral either on the cow or grab fish.

If we settle on the cow that fish most likely cannot be used. What about Fishing->Pottery and cottage the cow? Eh I have to think a bit about it a bit.
 
OK, in my test game, I got a great spy and build scotland yard and then got 2 more great spies:rolleyes:....must not do this in the real game.

Yeah, you've got to check on a city any time its population increases because the computer can do some stupid things with the new citizen. A Great Spy seems like a waste given all of the other GPs we need, although we will have use for some espionage points (maybe reducing defenses).
 
Modified the save to reflect what Shannon discovered in moving the Scout. I hope this allows us to test play the start and weigh whether to found the capital on the cows or east of the cows? Did not modify any other parts of the game, so took a lot of territory out, including that nice second city site. :(

Save attached.
 
Just created a new base save that we can use to change terrain on based upon what we find. It will be better than the earlier one because it was created with the peninsula Shannon found in mind. I thought of posting it but we are getting so many practice saves out, they are beginning to get confusing. If anyone wishes the new save, I would be happy to post it. :D
 
Just created a new base save that we can use to change terrain on based upon what we find. It will be better than the earlier one because it was created with the peninsula Shannon found in mind. I thought of posting it but we are getting so many practice saves out, they are beginning to get confusing. If anyone wishes the new save, I would be happy to post it. :D
Sure put it up.
 
I've begun to get my act together ;) and index this thread. Hopefully, CP can get an idea of the basics of our discussion without having to read the whole thread and we can go back and quickly find key ideas that we had. It is in the second post of the thread.

Now let's see if I can keep up with it... :p :crazyeye:
:lol:
 
Thanks Leif.

I've been working on starting positions. Here are my thoughts:

1. Settling in place - a good overall choice. It has fresh water, plenty of food, 2 riverside grassland for cottages, 10 forests in BFC, and can reach fish with workboat now. Since we're going for CS-slingshot, we want a capital with a lot of commerce and hammers, and settling in place gives that. The 10 forests in the BFC work especially well with Bureaucracy too. We only need a few for Oracle chop, and other can be chopped after the 50% bonus kicks in. This makes it easy to build other early wonders in the capital: Great Lighthouse and/or Artemis. Cows, clams, and fish with a cheap granary will give fast growth, and extra hills mostly make up for no second fish. Settling in place allows for another city somewhere to the east to claim fish, either on marble or to the northeast. This makes sense from a maintenance standpoint.

One drawback is having to research animal husbandry early, but this is only a small drawback. Animal husbandry may reveal horses, or be needed for our second city anyway. AH opens up writing. Wheel/pottery opens writing at a higher cost, but pottery allows us to build our cheap granary. But then, the granary is not necessary to get the capital to its happiness cap quickly. Granaries will be more important for lower food cities.

2. Settling on cows - a good choice for an early advantage. Extra food in capital gives a worker in 12 turns instead of 15. Being able to skip AH early means being able to go for Pottery instead and build an earlier granary. Also, building on the cow gives easier access to the fish, getting the fish nets built on the 1st turn of having built the workboat, instead of the 6th. All of this adds up to earlier population growth. Moving off of the riverside tile loses 2 health but gains one more tile to build a riverside cottage.

There are a few drawbacks. Building on the cow means losing out on a 6-yield tile in the capital. A 6-yield tile would be worth quite a lot after Bureaucracy. And a grass hill is also lost. That's a total loss of 5 hammers per turn, or 7.5 with Bureaucracy. Since this will probably be a 200-250 turn game, long term production must be considered. Settling on the cow only gives 6 forests in the capital's BFC, compared to 10 for settling in place. And settling on the cow means likely not being able to use the eastern fish.

3. Settling east of cows - great for settler and worker production. Settling east of the cows gives cows, clams, and 2 fish in the BFC, an embarrassment of food riches. At Pop5 and with a lighthouse, the caital would have a net yield of 18 food-hammers, able to produce workers in 3-4 turns and settlers in 5-6 turns. Food can be turned into hammers generally with Slavery. In fact, with a granary, a food is worth 50-100% more than a hammer, except for building wonders. The extra food can also be used to support 2 more specialists, allowing the capital to produce extra Prophets, Scientists, or Merchants as needed.

Again, there are several drawbacks. This site is forest poor. Settling on a forest destroys 1, and leaves only 3 forests in the BFC. Chopping will be quite limited, and this site has fewer base hammers than the in-place site. Overall, it's the worst place for building wonders in the capital. A food is worth less than a hammer when whipping a wonder. When we are in Caste System rather than slavery (which we want for producing scientists), the extra food will be hard to turn into production. There is a limit to how many settlers and workers we want to build. And constantly switching between Slavery and Caste System will be costly. This site also has the least cottagable land.


I'll try to run some side by side comparrisons to put some numbers to these musings.
 
Another advantage to settling in place is that we could use that eastern fish, along with sharing the Cow, for a Great Person/Commerce city. Cut the jungles, cottage the grasslands and pop-rush what we need to build?

XTeam08_Dot_Map.jpg
 
Another advantage to settling in place is that we could use that eastern fish, along with sharing the Cow, for a Great Person/Commerce city. Cut the jungles, cottage the grasslands and pop-rush what we need to build?

I like that city location (unless there is more seafood to the northeast). With Great Lighthouse and half price harbors, granaries, and libraries, having some extra small/medium cities near the capital could be a big boost to research. Capital wont need the food from the cow except when growing.
 
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