SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[Simon_c]

I'm not in a rush to start the turn. I still think my PPP is a little sketchy and needs some more reviewing. If anyone has time to test if a spy can be airlifted, please do so.

One of the problems I always seem to find is pushing through the tech tree like we are is back filling techs is tricky. The AI stops wanting to trade very quickly. A infiltrated GSpy would help with that.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm not in a rush to start the turn. I still think my PPP is a little sketchy and needs some more reviewing. If anyone has time to test if a spy can be airlifted, please do so.

One of the problems I always seem to find is pushing through the tech tree like we are is back filling techs is tricky. The AI stops wanting to trade very quickly. A infiltrated GSpy would help with that.

I can run a test, but very late tonight.
First we must see about airlifting GSpy and spies, second how much we can use this.

 

[BLubmuz]

I just rant a test with world builder. If I place both the Lighthouse and the Trading Post (Viking UB for Lighthouse) in the city it will get +2 per tile. My guess is that Atlantis has both a Lighthouse and a Trading Post in it...probably a Dyke too giving it +1 . They may have given the barbarian city of Atlantis all of the buildings or at least several special buildings.

Lot of buildings, i guess. The Trading post will explain the nav1. Probably it can work together with a LH only for Barbs. And the buildings looks like in modern Age. A dike or the Moai.

 

[BLubmuz]

Test for GSpy airlift done.
It was a few minutes thing, just the time to set up a test and explore chances.

Unfortunately, we can't airlift any unit in foreign city, only rebase air units.
I've even tried if the problem was the need to have visibility (not that this can help, since the only AI worth of tech stealing is HC), recon on a Babylonian city to do this, but it's not possible airlift units in foreign cities. Probably it works only if we have a PA or a vassal state.

Let's keep that GSpy for a GAge, and let's keep fingers crossed to not pop another one.

To avoid possible misunderstandigs, here's a SS of next city (light blue) and of the last one (white)

Spoiler :

Please note that even the BLue Circle Gods approve this placement.

Workers: after roaded in place, one will road the wine, the other on the forest E of new city, to move on the rice to farm/road after roaded the forest.
Be care to remove the artist the city governor will place: we don't want the minimal pollution of the gene for the NP city.

GB, if you agree with this and with the other variations i proposed, you can start with no need to further discuss your PPP.

Just, remember to set the espionage as i recommend on my #3.

 

[berserks01]

A GSpy is invisible to any unit and can't be exposed.
He can be safely used as scout.
For scout use, i think a spy is safe too. While operating in neutral/our territory a normal spy is invisible and can't be exposed.

By neutral, did you mean uncharted territories?

I know for a fact that a GSpy is invisible to all and cannot be exposed, but a normal spy is only invisible to all but can be exposed in AI territories if their esp points are higher than ours.

 

[Simon_c]

Just plotted the city locations on the map now, so thanks for the clarification of blue and white circle.

Here's the revised PPP that I think incorporates comments, and the goals in #3. I plan to play tomorrow night, unless anyone says no, or an discussion breaks out over new comments.


PPP

T77 now.

Research/techs
Education (T80). then gunpowder(T90) (see if an AI gets Philosophy first, we're not after another religion are we? ) Philosophy (T96) Liberalism (T107, Rifling for free) (these will all go out of kilter as we will probably have to drop Sci% down but get more GSci running

Builds
Launchpad:
Airport (T79) Settler (T81) xbow(T83) settler settler settler.
Athens:
Worker (T79). Granary (T85). Switch to MoM when we get Calendar.
Bulbsville has the following queued up: xbow (T79) Court (T82) Lib(T87)

City management
Launchpad to the east.

Athens will grow on T85 just as the granary is done which is perfect I think.
Bulbzville: Work Urainium the next turn after growth to S3. Switch to cows when they are done.

Exploration
rebase Airship to each new city and try to find Joao's cities.

City locations and build order.
1) NE/NP city 2W of rice (site E) on T78
2) Site D 2S or iron. Probably around T85 or 86 as it will need the archer, and probably xbow to escort that far outside of the borders. Probably outside of my turnset.


Trading
Try to get Calendar. Spend no more than it's value +20% ?

demands
I can gently tell people to go to hell ? Is this some now HOF addon key combination ? Please tell me


Great People
Launchpad: T83.
Hire 2nd Sci in LP

Wonders : Non due to finish, and I can't think of any worth starting now.

Espionage: Will Set Shaka to 1 and Joao to 3. We'll set to 2 in next TS or even after. All others set to 0.

Workers:
I've named them all to make it easier (for me) to follow the discussion in future.
Worker 1: T77 is still farming. Move E of LP (t78) build FP.
Worker 2: Pasturing cows WWN of Bulbz,
Worker 3 & 4: Waiting North of the site for the next city. Talking of which, how about Parnetha or Pindus
for the name. Both Greek nationals park that have lots of forests (at least, according to wikipedia)

Sooo. I'm not very good with doing the right thing with workers, so here's my ideas.

Worker 1: after farming, moves NW to farm Grassland there for Athens. Then moves E of LP for a FP or LM
Worker 2: road the cows, and 1SE. of the cows Blubmuz sugested SW, but I'm sure he ment SE. . The FP.

Worker 3&4: Road current location. (T77).
Then worker 3 to road to the wine. NE of Parnetha.
Worker 4, Then road SE,NE from Parnetha. By the time that's done, the borders of Parnetha should have popped and 3&4 can farm the rice. Hopefully with minimum worker turns lost in moving.

I don't think I'll have anyone spare to chop anywhere, so I'll leave the farm routing argument until the next TS.

 

[BLubmuz]

By neutral, did you mean uncharted territories?

I know for a fact that a GSpy is invisible to all and cannot be exposed, but a normal spy is only invisible to all but can be exposed in AI territories if their esp points are higher than ours.

Right.
I meant in our or in unclaimed land.

Stay tuned, you're up next.

 

[BLubmuz]

(...) Research/techs
Education (T80). then gunpowder(T90) (see if an AI gets Philosophy first, we're not after another religion are we? ) It's not a priority, but it's not bad we can also switch if we want a certain city to be the holy

City management
Launchpad to the east. ???????????

Exploration
rebase Airship to each new city and try to find Joao's cities. yes, but recon the island and the rockies first

City locations and build order.
1) NE/NP city 2W of rice (site E) on T78
2) Site D 2S or iron. Probably around T85 or 86 as it will need the archer we'll get the archer now with settler/workers there


Trading
Try to get Calendar. Spend no more than it's value +20% ? say currency, in case +WM
best bet: CoL+WM
if another tech will show in the table, do your best to take it
Great People
Launchpad: T83.
Hire 2nd Sci in LP +1 Eng!!!!!!!!!!

Wonders : Non due to finish, and I can't think of any worth starting now. MOM

Espionage: Will Set Shaka to 1 and Joao to 3. We'll set to 2 in next TS or even after. All others set to 0. set to 1, Hammu to 0 to be back to 1 next TS

Workers:
I've named them all to make it easier (for me) to follow the discussion in future.
Worker 1: T77 is still farming. Move E of LP (t78) build FP. stop that criminal!!!!!!!!!!!
Worker 2: Pasturing cows WWN of Bulbz, road, road forest/FP
Worker 3 & 4: Waiting North of the site for the next city. Talking of which, how about Parnetha or Pindus
for the name. Both Greek nationals park that have lots of forests (at least, according to wikipedia)

Sooo. I'm not very good with doing the right thing with workers, so here's my ideas.

Worker 1: after farming stop that criminal!!!!!!!!!!! before he can finish, FP N of present position, moves NW to farm Grassland there for Athens. Then moves E of LP for a FP or LM
Worker 2: road the cows, and 1SE. of the cows Blubmuz sugested SW, but I'm sure he ment SE. . The FP. edit: W of Blubz, damn

Worker 3&4: Road current location. (T77).
Then worker 3 to road to the wine. NE of Parnetha. better Pindus, it's short
Worker 4, Then road SE,NE from Parnetha. By the time that's done, the borders of Parnetha should have popped and 3&4 can farm the rice. Hopefully with minimum worker turns lost in moving. NOOOOOOOOOOOO 1 continues road south, with archer walking to the city site

I don't think I'll have anyone spare to chop anywhere, so I'll leave the farm routing argument until the next TS.

OK deleted the good ones to shorten.

 

[greatbeyond]

Irrigating Worker

Blubmuz.. "Worker 1: after farming stop that criminal!!!!!!!!!!! before he can finish, FP N of present position, moves NW to farm Grassland there for Athens. Then moves E of LP for a FP or LM"

W1 is currently farming 2W of LP. In my previous post I detailed the choice to farm there and the alternate, but there isn't any comment on it. You don't address that in your comments to Simon. Except to say stop him before he can finish and then later, farm the tile NW of there. I may be confused, but he can't farm that tile without a farm where he is now (2W of LP). Do you mean to have him complete the FP, then go back to where he is and finish the farm? Otherwise we won't be able to farm it until Biology.

Other than this one issue the PPP looks fine to me.

 

[Mesix]

Lot of buildings, i guess. The Trading post will explain the nav1. Probably it can work together with a LH only for Barbs. And the buildings looks like in modern Age. A dike or the Moai.

I put both buildings in my starting city using WB to test if it was possible. It will work for any player, but cannot be done without cheating since they are the same building and cannot both be built.

 

[Sweetacshon]

The farm chain will need one also NW of where Blub's chain stopped, iirc, and then farm another NE and, voila, we have irrigated to where we want. No need to farm LPs forest land.

The PPP looks ok, but I'd prefer to get the uni into LP earlier if possible. Can Blubz help out with settlers after the court, for instance? If not, get it to do a worker or 2 before the lib, as rexxing with too few workers is digging ourselves a ditch.

Also, the granary starts filling with food when it is built, not immediately filled, so building it one turn before pop doesn't help anything. I think ir(this)c.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Oops, misread the map. Irrigating around like that means chopping more forest. Disregard.

 

[BLubmuz]

GB & Sweeta
I posted a map where i indicate my proposal to spread irrigation to Athens.
In my tests i've found this is the best solution, even if we need a lot of workers turns.
To leave the forests for LP is very important for prod, commerce and happiness.
I proposed to FP N of the present worker position in the hope that 2 FP can let some forest grow in the adjacent tiles.

I didn't noted this detail in GB's PPP or i would have pointed out it.
It seemed obviuos to me the way i used in my tests that probably i thought not worth a detailed plan. Mistake.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Well, it's that northern grass that's the issue, right? What if the forest doesn't spread there in the near future, do we just leave it naked? Are hose couple of farms in the south enough to feed the city? I haven't checked, but I guess we need to calculate it and see how many farms we need.

 

[Sweetacshon]

It seems the russians have score spikes recently.. 900-500BCish, which is due to power spikes. Perhaps they are already ing Ham, or maybe they bulbed toward rifling. It willbe interesting to see - they always teach a good lesson.

The road heading south from LP on your irrigation map - why?? We could save many turns by extending from the uranium mine. Also in the other picture in that post, the red city is junk. We're better off finding a good spot and using forts if a canal is needed.

edit: Also, ungroup those workers, sometimes you lose turns on grouped workers, which bites on quick. It's fine to have them doing the same task, but no grouping!

 

[BLubmuz]

Well, it's that northern grass that's the issue, right? What if the forest doesn't spread there in the near future, do we just leave it naked? Are hose couple of farms in the south enough to feed the city? I haven't checked, but I guess we need to calculate it and see how many farms we need.

No need to make complicate calculations.
This is the same set up i have in my tests.
After Bio Athens can grow 13-14 with the farming i used - and proposed.
All the workable hills windmilled, of course. FP the remaining forests.

We can wait and see if the forest regrow for a long while: no need to work it until late.
If the forest will not regrow we can also consider a cottage there.
Pity for the worker turns lost, a minor mistake.

It seems the russians have score spikes recently.. 900-500BCish, which is due to power spikes. Perhaps they are already ing Ham, or maybe they bulbed toward rifling. It willbe interesting to see - they always teach a good lesson.

I can't see how they hope to fight against Hammu with melee units. This will go at the expenses of their structures and research.
Let's see who will teach the lesson this time.

 

[BLubmuz]

I posted this on my #3:

Spoiler :

Now (05/06) i'm trying to see how many TSs we need to arrive to 202: 15 @ 6 turns each starting after mine (15th TS).
This means 21 TSs from now but probably more since we'll shorten in war time.
Let's assume 25-28 TSs, 4 days each = 112 days.
82 days to July 27th. We must speed the intervals discussing the key points before a TS is completed.

I think that when the city placement will be decided, and a single worker action will cease to be a strategic decision (if we have more workers some minor mistake will not affect the game that much). Please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that:
- all the wonders
- the research until Lib/Rifling
- the need to structures in cities
- civics and religions

are already decided.

I'll keep summarized all those decisions in my #3, the PPP can be prepared by the player on deck and perfected after the TS. This way we can shorten the waiting between TSs and arrive on time.
I won't consider longer TSs, but the opposite.

 

[Simon_c]

OK deleted the good ones to shorten.

Ahhh. I can't quote your quotes to answer you correctly. !!

City management
Launchpad to the east. ???????????

I mean, a FP east of LP.

City locations and build order.
1) NE/NP city 2W of rice (site E) on T78
2) Site D 2S or iron. Probably around T85 or 86 as it will need the archer we'll get the archer now with settler/workers there

I'm not sure what you mean. I was figuring on the archer setting off now I think, and that's assuming he's strong enough to act as defense, which I'm not sure of.
I'll do my best on that bit not to loose a settler but may be at the expense of a few turns settling.

Hire 2nd Sci in LP +1 Eng!!!!!!!!!!

of course.

Espionage: Will Set Shaka to 1 and Joao to 3. We'll set to 2 in next TS or even after. All others set to 0. set to 1, Hammu to 0 to be back to 1 next TS

OK. but we only have 4EPs anyway...

Worker 2: road the cows, and 1SE. of the cows Blubmuz sugested SW, but I'm sure he ment SE. . The FP. edit: W of Blubz, damn

SE pf cows, W of Bulbz

Worker 1: after farming stop that criminal!!!!!!!!!!! before he can finish, FP N of present position moves NW to farm Grassland there for Athens. , Then moves E of LP for a FP or LM

FP the forest that's outside of any BFC before FPing E of LP ?
OK.

Worker 4, Then road SE,NE from Parnetha. By the time that's done, the borders of Parnetha should have popped and 3&4 can farm the rice. Hopefully with minimum worker turns lost in moving. NOOOOOOOOOOOO 1 continues road south, with archer walking to the city site

OK

I'll check back here and play in about 7-8 or so hours.

 

[BLubmuz]

I mean, a FP east of LP. sure, but FP the forest north of where he is now: LP's BFC W of copper, right?


I'm not sure what you mean. I was figuring on the archer setting off now I think, and that's assuming he's strong enough to act as defense, which I'm not sure of.
I'll do my best on that bit not to loose a settler but may be at the expense of a few turns settling. The archer is there only to fogbust, not to fight. Better lose 1 turn of settler than 4 turns of production in Blubz for another Xbow

OK. but we only have 4EPs anyway... but they will grow to 6 after the CH in Blubz

FP the forest that's outside of any BFC before FPing E of LP ? see above

I'll check back here and play in about 7-8 or so hours.

Right, so we can discuss all the cities placements and know which GPerson you'll pop. You'll use the airship to recon the rockies, the island (the few tiles still unrevealed), and the possible location for a city S of pigs, to see if my fog-gazing was right. Then we must recon south to know Joao's territory. You can airlift the GSpy in the city being founded to help with fogbust/exploring.

 

[Simon_c]

I mean, a FP east of LP. sure, but FP the forest north of where he is now: LP's BFC W of copper, right?

I'm blind. Yes, it's in LP's BFC.