SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

I massive tested our start.
I never improved the corn until after Alpha, because i was always close to the happy cap. If we want to be successful in the CS sling, and avoid to waste workers turns on a useless farm, let's skip Agri.

Settle on corn.
WB first
Wheel first, then Myst
I'm undecided if worker or warrior after the WB.

Masonry, then the straight path to writing, via PH: i'm undecided between Med and Poly, but slightly in favor of the last.

We can start the GW in Capital and take a break to build a library.
Oracle in city 2, academy in Capital around the time CoL is researched, Math in 4 turns.

CS/Caste in turn 53, but we can probably improve a couple turns.
Priority improvements: 2 forest preserve along river, then windmills on the 2 non-forested hills.
Rule: improvement first, then road: this way we'll avoid to waste turns moving later.

Forest preserve needs 6 turns, windmills 4.

GW is a must.
Now i'll play some variant to maximize the result until CS.

@ Simon
It seems thing went OK, now think to recover.
Your contribution will be useful, and i'll put you in the roster when you'll give me an OK.

 

[BLubmuz]

Made another run of tests:
CS turn 50, Lib turn 105 with 6 cities up and running.
Need more workers.
NP will go in capital. Together with Oxford.
I guess Pyr will be out of reach to accomplish this.

Farmed the corn around turn 80 who needs it?
I'm afraid we'll need to use Lib for Rifling... hate this, but the AIs seem very aggressive (not by trait, necessarily).

I'd make a continents map for tests.

Question: do you approve my initial strategy?

After that we'll be plenty of time to discuss how to use Lib and so on.

 

[Mesix]

Made another run of tests:
CS turn 50, Lib turn 105 with 6 cities up and running.
Need more workers.
NP will go in capital. Together with Oxford.
I guess Pyr will be out of reach to accomplish this.

Farmed the corn around turn 80 who needs it?
I'm afraid we'll need to use Lib for Rifling... hate this, but the AIs seem very aggressive (not by trait, necessarily).

I'd make a continents map for tests.

Question: do you approve my initial strategy?

After that we'll be plenty of time to discuss how to use Lib and so on.

The latest I've had CS in my test games was turn 42. Maybe that is because I didn't settle on the corn!!! Improving both corn tiles will also give you the food that you need to produce more workers early on. National Park should go with National Epic to maximize GP generation. Settle the GP in the city with Oxford to get the research benefit. Once the game is up and running, 3 food resources will allow us to run 7 scientists in the capital. A saparate NP/NE city will produce a lot of research as well while at the same time churning out more GS et al to join the capital (or wherever Oxford goes).

 

[Mesix]

The difference between my plan (separate NP/NE city) and the alternative (NP/OU in the capital) is that the alternatives adapts strategy from the current Gauntlet which is an OCC. In an OCC game you can get 5 national wonders vice 2. With 5 national wonders you can get all three of the wonders mentioned (NP, NE, and OU) in one city. In an OCC game, the one and only city has to have everything. In this game, we can specialize. The capital doesn't need to be a powerhouse.

My proposition is to speicalize the capital. Make it food heavy for fast growth and fast worker/settler production. The other cities can have the necessary for building, and we have time to cherry pick their locations better rather than coping with the compromise of the starting location. The capital only really needs to build research buildings (lib, uni, etc.) along with the Oxford national wonder. Other than that it can produce workers and settlers or build . Once all the research is up and running, the capital can become a GP farm runnning maximum scientist specialists.

If we move the settler east towards the coast (I propose 1N2E) then we will leave a lot of those forsts for the 2nd city (somewhere to the west) which will hopefully be a better location for the NP. We may even get lucky and find another seafood resource in the fog to the east, though it is not necessary. After Biology is gotten with Liberalism (good idea WT), the NP/NE city will be producing a lot of and the capital can have max farms built for 4 each to run additional specialists for max from Oxford.

Trust me on this, it will be better in the long run. We can get a spot for the NP with more forest preserve tiles. We can get workers/settlers out faster. We can get the CS slingshot faster. We can get to Biology faster. We can launch our SS faster. We can finish faster and possibly compete for an award other than a wooden spoon.

edit: Is it National Park or National Forest? After rereading I realized that I called it NP in some sentences and NF in others. I have changed them all to NP for uniformity. As long as you can read it and understand what is meant.

 

[Sweetacshon]

To be honest, this is my feeling also, Mesix. Using the capital with all that food to pump workers and settlers as well as early GP worked well in tests, and seemed quicker than the corn tests, but I didn't write down the results. I suppose to make a good decision, we need to have these numbers: So what are the determinants? Date (turn) of CS/oracle? of lib? of having 6 cities? bpt at these points? What else is relevant? I just don't see any other way to choose between the 2 proposals.

Here's the save after the scout move.

 

[BLubmuz]

It's clear we can't find an agreement.
I made lot of tests, very accurate.

Once i was beaten on the GW on turn 42, once on Oracle on turn 52.
Maybe you not realize how important the GW is and how different things can be compared to a normal game.

In my best attempt (until now) i made the GW on turn 46 and Academy turn 46 (Athens) and the Oracle on turn 48 (Sparta).
Then i has an indecent luck with GS, and managed Lib for Rifling on turn 103, with only 2 detours: Currency and MC.

Pyramids was built often in the BCs, in my last attempt i built them, just for GE points in 1100 AD (??).
But we can skip them, our CHEAP Odeon (construction) is enough to assure a decent happiness.

I even completed a game, for a non wonderful launch, but:
- 1 AI DoWed me, luckily right after i took rifling
- another AI DoWed me few turns later, probably briben by the first one.
You can't imagine what stacks they throw at you: without paratroopers i was cooked.

Well, i destroy the first and made pace with the second after i took a couple cities: mistake, he DoWed me when HE has paratroopers too, but i just blocked him then he paid for peace.

Last, when i was close to complete the SS, one AI from another continent, with lots of resource trades with me arrived with impressive stacks of destroyers, transports loaded with anything.
Luck, anything bigger than some paratrooper, but some 12 artilleries.
My navy was poor, and i has my only source of oil destoryed. Luck, i already built an half dozen MA, i has already my heroic paratroopers and i manage to push them out of my land. Mainly thanks to Airports, i could send units to protect the threatened cities.
But i has a SS part destroyed by a spy, so my launch was delayed by 5 turns.
At this point i was sure to win, the best AI only built a couple parts and not completed the techs.
But i can assure any city was building military.

Guys, this will not be a game for sissies. Forget to optimize everything.
To win a medal we have to:
1) Survive
2) Win the game

Build science?!?
Paratroopers, if we want to survive.

 

[Simon_c]

I guess the more we try for an earlier launch, the closer to the line we are on having enough forces to defend against the AI if we seem like the easy pickings.

If we're trying for the absolute earliest launch, then we're on a knife edge. I know if I tried that, I'd fail....

the Great Wall could actually be worse in that respect as we won't have more than a single defender in the cities. But, personally after playing a test map, I'd go for the great wall so we can expand quicker earlier. That does have the risk of loosing the mids or oracle.

 

[BLubmuz]

Mids?
Only if we have stone.
Oracle by turn 48 in city2 is good.
In my tests, never built NE, no one city worth it.

Mesix, can't see how you manage Oracle in turn 42 with GW in by then.
The constraint is research.
When i built it in turn 48, i need to switch for 1 turn to library in city2.
There's nothing we can do to improve the research.
Always in my last attempt, worker's first job was a windmill.
From the autolog:
WB turn 8, warrior t.10, grow 3, worker.
ready t.15, warrior, worker
ready t.22,settler, GW
Sparta founded t.31 -already connected-, started Oracle.
Writing t.32, break GW for library in 4t.
CoL in t.42, Athens size 7, 2 scientists already at work
GW + academy t.46 in Athens, of course
Math in t.47 (maybe i lost 1 turn on Oracle, t.48)

Improvements:
Windmill t.20 then road to Sparta site.
Windmill t.27
FP river t.34
FP river t.41
Marble quarried t.39

Do we actually have marble?
It's not strategic to know the answer, just we'll need to anticipate the settler if we do not have it.
Another thing i used was to 0 the research the turn before Sparta was founded (and the library was under construction), to be able to keep it 100% 'til CS.

The key to our game are those initial 50 turns.
After that, we just need to play well, to MM well.
And to be VERY aggressive after Lib.

 

[greatbeyond]

I have used both the original test and the modified test with Barbs and different Civs. I have played at least 20 games to T-60. I compared settling on the Corn with the 1N2E. Each has specific advantages, and I like them both, eliminating all others that we have seen so far. I used the same initial build path so direct comparison could be made, WB, Warrior, Worker, GW, Settler, Library.

Corn - Pop will grow quicker, allowing us to grow to the happy cap of 5 and then being able to maintain that while getting good production. This allows us to build the WB, GW, and Warriors quicker. In this it has an advantage over the other site until we have are able to get our happy cap substantially higher. I would say the tilting point comes around T80 depending on what is researched.

1N2E - This site has slower initial growth and lags about 5 to 7 turns behind the Corn. It takes longer to reach our happy cap of 5 and thus longer to build all the things we need early on. The huge positive to this site is that as the game goes past T80, the pop grows very fast and in the late game this site can support a population of well over 20. In one game I was able to run 12 Scientists late in the game with a Pop of 16 doing the work. Now we could use Slavery to whip the things we want, but that requires an alteration to our research path.

Research - I focused on the idea of getting the CS slingshot as quickly as possible.
Myst, Masonry, Meditation, PH, Writing, CoL

It was not easy. The sticking point is Mathematics. In some games I was able to insert a Library in the que and pop a GS for Math. The success rate for this was ~30%. In a few cases, once COL was finished, I was able to trade it for Math (no one would trade for anything else) and get the CS sling. I tried to keep from doing so to be the first for Lib.

Wonders - The GW is easily doable without whipping (not an option if we don't research BW) and I was never beaten to it even without Stone. If we wait to build this until after we get a Settler and Library, I'm not sure if we'll get it built before the AI.

The Pyramids were doable (90% success, built in city #2), but that's because there is Stone nearby. Looking at the generated map, that's a good possibility as Stone is abundant. I never edited it out to see what the effect would be.

The Oracle is less certain, in about one third of the games it was BIAFL by 1600BC. If I prioritized it early on, then the research wasn't in yet to get CS as a free tech. In some games, I was able to finish as late as 400BC.

As you will find if you have played the revised test, who the other Civs are will make a big difference. I hate Caesar.. unless I'm playing as him.

I think we'll have to take things a couple of turns at a time and be flexible. Either path can be made to work in the long run. I just feel that the quicker growth and early builds provided by settling on the Corn is critical in getting off to a good start.

I'll look at the save Sweetacshon posted and see if I can make any improvements to our test game.

 

[BLubmuz]

(...)The success rate for this was ~30%. In a few cases, once COL was finished, I was able to trade it for Math (no one would trade for anything else) and get the CS sling. I tried to keep from doing so to be the first for Lib.

This was your mistake. No time to research Alpha before Math.
I made another attempt, i has math by turn 46, but mistaken the Oracle, built on t.47.
Revolt to CS/caste t.48
I MMed every tile, every turn.

This is a safe date, never beaten before t.50.

Now i'm trying a REX game, with some sacrifice early, but probably a pay-off later.
Seen some barb axes around the time GW was completed.
The more i test, the more i'm convinced of my idea.

 

[greatbeyond]

I've been playing with the Settler "fog path exploit" a little and it seems to indicate that we are on the NE edge of a landmass. I see what they talk about when they say the settle button lights up. BE VERY CAREFUL with this, any unintentional move could screw us or the unhappy team member. Obviously the safest way to use it is after the settler's movement point are used up. But we don't want to move him yet. I want to make a test game and explore the functioning of this a little bit. One curiosity is that for tiles we already see, it doesn't indicate whether they are good or not. I also want to see what kind of bonuses it thinks are good enough to make the button light up.

 

[greatbeyond]

I don't think I ever researched or traded for Alpha before trying for the CS slingshot. Mathematics is required for CS. Here's the tech path I've been using, am I wrong or just missing something?

Myst, Masonry, Meditation, PH, Writing, CoL, Math, CS

 

[BLubmuz]

I don't think I ever researched or traded for Alpha before trying for the CS slingshot. Mathematics is required for CS. Here's the tech path I've been using, am I wrong or just missing something?

Myst, Masonry, Meditation, PH, Writing, CoL, Math, CS

The wheel, of course BTW i researched Poly, is usually more tradeable, but Med will save 1 turn.

No, the path is correct, but you posted you trade CoL for math.

It's all about MM and improvements.
I don't think someone can do better than t.47 for math.
I just mistaken the Oracle turns by 1, otherwise it'd have been CS on turn 47.

 

[greatbeyond]

Do you mean that if you research The Wheel you don't need Math?

 

[BLubmuz]

Do you mean that if you research The Wheel you don't need Math?

No!!!
I meant you need the wheel, CS sling or not.

 

[greatbeyond]

Then you really must have MM well!

I have been exploring the "fog path" trick and so far have gleaned just a few things. This was all using the Test game I made and then modifying from there.

-It will not tell you what is land vs ocean, nor impassable vs passable.
-It will give you an idea of the underlying terrain, based on movement costs.
-When analyzing fogged squares, it appears to only be concerned with how many bonus resources are in the BFC. It appears there has to be at least 3. It did not seem to matter what they were,though I haven't tested this completely.
-I thought perhaps it was using raw food count as an indicator but that does not appear to be so.
-It does not count Flood Plains as a Bonus.
-When analyzing partially fogged tiles, it appears to be calculating food potential. The squares 3N 4W and 3N5W at the edge of the fog are shown as being good spots. However they are not because the only bonus resource is the Oil.

-Removing the fog in WB and then trying the "Fogpath" trick does not work. It rejects sites that it showed as "good" when everything was fogged over.

Has anyone seen a reference as to how the "blue circle" code works?

 

[unclethrill]

At this point, I can see the benefits either way about the settler. I still stand by my decision that 2N1E is the best spot but I really doubt that the difference in the initial settler spot will matter that much for either. Either way we have 2 corn and a fish. I will accept the start on the corn if it will allow us to move on to the next turn. Either way we will need to be flexible and roll with the punches, if you will. There are so many unknowns that we have to be willing to modify our strategies if needed.

 

[greatbeyond]

No!!!
I meant you need the wheel, CS sling or not.

I would move The Wheel back in the research order a little instead of doing it first. We won't have a Worker for the first ~15 turns.

Unless of course I'm missing something with why you research The Wheel first.

Will it be possible for us to decide which site and get the Settler moved and settled by Sunday afternoon? It would allow us a little more info after the Scout moves and show us if there are any more ocean resources.

 

[unclethrill]

I would move The Wheel back in the research order a little instead of doing it first. We won't have a Worker for the first ~15 turns.

Unless of course I'm missing something with why you research The Wheel first.

Will it be possible for us to decide which site and get the Settler moved and settled by Sunday afternoon? It would allow us a little more info after the Scout moves and show us if there are any more ocean resources.

I agree that it would be nice to get the settler settled soon. If we can't get a clear consensus then I say Sweet make a decision since it's your turn set and lets just go with it.

 

[Mesix]

I used the same initial build path so direct comparison could be made, WB, Warrior, Worker, GW, Settler, Library.

Try WB, Worker, Warrior, Settler...

Save the GW for city number 2 to build as it grows.