SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Try WB, Worker, Warrior, Settler...

Save the GW for city number 2 to build as it grows.

I'll try this one, with settler before worker 2.
But i seriously doubt we can do better than my best attempt.
I started worker 2 in turn 18, right after the warrior 2 was built, and size 4. Then i started the settler, so nothing changes for growth, we "only" lose a windmill for 6 turns, but let's see if this can be compensated by city 2 4 turns early.
We need the wheel, but it's not important the order until masonry.
Nothing change if we go
1) Wheel - Myst - Masonry
2) myst - masonry - wheel
it's important to research Myst before masonry, for the bonus (you save 2 turns)
But the wheel must be in before start poly or med, the windmill hill must be roaded.

Keep in mind windmills and FP along river gives 3
my careful MM was to start work the improved tiles before the worker was free: as you know, the turns needed to build an improvement count from the start to the turn the worker is free, but the improvement is ready 1 turn before.
In a quick game this can make the difference in the early stage.
I don't think it's unsafe delay Oracle to turn 49, if we can avoid pollution on the GS points.
Sure it's worth a try.

Another note: in all my tests i farmed the corn around turn 60-70 and built the LH even after. Capital has better tiles to work and too quick growth must be avoided.

Another important build, after Oracle is an airship: i managed to contact all civs and to circumnavigate around 100 AD moving it in the first visible AI city, then recon mission, then another city, rinse and repeat!!!
Needless to say, i has OB with anyone.

GB, for the move trick: we don't need those petty things, we know enough of our starting position, and we're plenty of time to explore for the other cities.

 

[berserks01]

Even if you want to avoid quick growth having the corns farmed would shorten the settler/worker builds and you can always not work those tiles to stop growing.

 

[Mesix]

Let's just get this game underway. 2 weeks and 183 posts so far and we haven't even played 1 turn. I played a few more tests and the early game is similar with both starting locations. We definately want to revolt to Env+Pol and settle the next turn. I am in favor of 1N2E for the Capital, but if settling on the Corn will get this game rolling then go ahead.

 

[BLubmuz]

One last point to show how the location 1N2E is not good:
only 2 forests in BFC, we'll never can grow the capital with only 2 FP, thus all that food will be wasted.
Now i'll post the definitive plan on page 1.

edit:
i tested the settler before worker: i has to delay the settler to avoid having him blocked on a forest.
We need the path roaded to not waste turns, and the worker before settler is better.
Not only for the above reason, also we'll have 2nd windmill 6 turns earlier.

Also, no way to manage the GW and Oracle in city 2: it starts with 3 working a F plain, when Athens can start the GW while researching writing, working 2 windmills, 1 F hill and the fish, for total 7 and 9
when wri is in, switch to library in 4 turns.

Remember that GW has only 1 GP point, and Oracle has 2, thus it pollutes far more than GW.

I posted an autolog with comments on page 1 to help with MM.
Working corn for the first 2 turns does not delay the WB, but Athens will grow 3 1 turn earlier.

Now Sweeta, go ahead, bring the scout as south as you can, but be careful: i've seen some bears around t 8.
Perfect MM is required.
Play until the WB is finished. No more.

 

[BLubmuz]

I managed to improve!
Math turn 46
GS + GW turn 43
Academy turn 44
Oracle turn 47, damn again 1 turn too late. But will be enough look at the autolog and anticipate by 1 turn.
How did i manage to do so?
Starving Athens!
Not actually starving, i mean i don't lose population, but not working the fish.

Turn 43 is not a completely safe date for GW, but reasonably possible.
Anyway is the best we can do.

 

[Mesix]

Why not build the GW in city #2 and the Oracle in the Capital (Athens, Gallifrey, Hill Valley, or Fifthberg)? Yes, the GP points will pollute GS points, but 1 or 2 GP will not ruin our game. The extra and could be beneficial. We will also have the Conf Holy City (assuming we are the forst to CoL) where we can build a shrine and prep for Wall St. It may be beneficial to have the NP/NE city be city #3 if the Capital is building OU and city #2 (where the Holy City is likely to be) may be our economic city. That will also give us more time to scout for maximum forest tiles.

BTW, Representation is a must for this game because our SE will produce a lot of extra from the bonus. The extra is nice, but the is what makes the Pyramids a must build for a quick space game.

 

[Mesix]

I like the idea to build an airship to scout and get the circumnavigation bonus. It is a nice exploit from our available techs that many of the teams may overlook.

 

[BLubmuz]

Why not build the GW in city #2

I already posted about this: No chance the GW can be built by turn 43 in city 2 (unless we have stone). 43 is resonably safe, but too much later can be risky.
I never had problems in building it aroud t. 43-45, but once it was BIADL turn 40, not reachable for us.
Remember, we need missionaries to spread our religion, and i don't like to waste 2 turns of anarchy to adopt+convert.
But we can discuss this after TS1.

I agree about Pyramids, but i'm not convinced to build them unless we have stone.

 

[Mesix]

We don't need to adopt religion to get the Shrine. We only need a GP and the Holy City.

I think we need to build the Oracle in the Capital, GW in city #2, and Pyramids in city #3. If we miss the GW, so be it. The barbarbians will be a nuisance in the early game, but will probably not have very advanced units. If the AI beats us to the GW, then city #2 can build units to protect our early cities and resources while the capital cranks out an army of workers to improve all our tiles. We may need to trade for Archery or BW early on if this happens.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay. I think we need to get started and see how things work out. I will agree to settle on the corn if that vote gets things started. Also I can see the argument for teching BW early. Hopefully we can settle a second or third city near it but alas we do need to know where it is before we can do that. Hopefully forgetting archery won't bit us in the a$$.

I also doubt that we can get a second city up and get the GW in it in time but we could build GW and Oracle in the first city and Mids in the second.

Either way, lets settle and start researching Myst.


Edit: I agree with Mesix that the GW is not a requirement though it would be nice.

 

[Simon_c]

I agree too. lets get going.

 

[unclethrill]

Wow. Nothing new in 7 hours. Maybe I should start reading other threads for entertainment.

 

[greatbeyond]

A Priest, a Rabbi, and an Iman walk into a bar......

Oh, that's not what you meant.

Sweetachson has apparently temporarily dematerialized...

Mork calling Orson, Mork calling Orson

 

[Sweetacshon]

Problems with the TARDIS. No really, had my nephew's birthday yesterday, sorry, I should have posted. I'm always busy on Sunday's for some reason.

OK, well, the corn spot seems to have gained acceptance. Is it too late to bring up settle in place? Playing soon according to Blub's p1:
Approved TS 1 goals:
1) Settle on the coastal corn
2) build WB - warrior - worker
3) Research: the Wheel - Myst (or reverse, it doesn't matter)
4) next scout move: on the tundra hill, then head south
5) first citizen will work a GL forest, switch to a GL forest hill right after borders pop (i have to refine this)
6) Civics: PS - Environment. But not in turn 0: wait until borders expand, then revolt, when the game ask you to do so. Capital will still be at s.1, nothing changes, but i like to see more tiles.

 

[WastinTime]

Comments from the sidelines...wheel? really? The worker has a dozen things to do before ever making a road (Corn, windmills, forestPreserves for happiness). This team was always a bit road-happy in the past. ONLY if you had a happy resource that needed a road would I ever consider wheel. If you're worried about improving your time to the oracle, drop the wheel.

And warrior before worker? wha? How can that warrior be needed so soon? Delaying the worker for the workboat is already questionable.

Not revolt on turn 0? Are you crazy? You haven't settled your capitol yet. It's a free turn.

btw, it you grow the capitol with forest preserves so it is gigantic early. You will easily build GW, Oracle, and Pyramids with no stone all the captial. 2nd and 3rd cities just cost maint. don't settle them too early.

 

[Sweetacshon]

I played according to the plan, and the only real surprises are that there is a barb city off the se coast, and that we've met no AI yet. Myst is done, and masonry has 4ish to go. The scout should probably loop back north and take another strip off the fog... barb animals won't be far away, so it's important we get this mapped out soon.

The wb is out (fingers crossed for its longevity), and warrior is next in the que, but personally, this is not my choice. WORKER would be my pick. It seems I agree with WT, and also with the need for the wheel this early. I'd advocate sticking to the oracle gambit line strictly. Anyway, check out the turns, and we can discuss the next 8 turns for 3 weeks.

Spoiler :

Turn 0/330 (4000 BC) [06-Apr-2009 13:45:23]
Sweetacshon: OK, here we go. Against all reason and intuition, the settler goes to the corn. A testament to our leaders rhetoric.
Sweetacshon: Oops... a slight pause here as I remember to change the .ini file to save every turn again after reinstalling. Don't want to get AlanH offside (again)
Athens founded
The Launch Pad begins: Work Boat (20 turns)

IBT:

Turn 1/330 (3940 BC) [06-Apr-2009 13:56:18]
Research begun: Mysticism (4 Turns)
Sweetacshon: The scout finds some sheep in the west, otherwise it's mostly tundra.
The Launch Pad's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 2/330 (3880 BC) [06-Apr-2009 13:57:42]
Sweetacshon: Marbles a-go-go in the east

IBT:
Civics Change: Pericles(Greece) from 'Despotism' to 'Police State'
Civics Change: Pericles(Greece) from 'Decentralization' to 'Environmentalism'

Turn 3/330 (3820 BC) [06-Apr-2009 13:59:35]
Sweetacshon: ...not to mention uranium.
Sweetacshon: ...and wine!
Sweetacshon: I do a few calcs, and getting the wb fastest is done by working the grass hill, as Blub uggested.

IBT:

Turn 4/330 (3760 BC) [06-Apr-2009 14:32:09]
Sweetacshon: More wine and cows to the south. Resources everywhere, here.

IBT:

Turn 5/330 (3700 BC) [06-Apr-2009 14:34:21]
Sweetacshon: And there is a a barb city, as expected, but it is off the SE coast. I'm now wondering how good the wb idea really is.

Tech learned: Mysticism

IBT:

Turn 6/330 (3640 BC) [06-Apr-2009 14:36:36]
Research begun: Masonry (7 Turns)
The Launch Pad grows: 2

IBT:

Turn 7/330 (3580 BC) [06-Apr-2009 14:37:40]
The Launch Pad finishes: Work Boat

IBT:

Turn 8/330 (3520 BC) [06-Apr-2009 14:38:44]
The Launch Pad begins: Warrior (5 turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near The Launch Pad
Sweetacshon: And that's it. So much talk and angst for such little action.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm9/Fifth_Element_SG009_BC3520_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Sweetacshon]

And, btw, I wasn't joking all that much about settling in place. For a NP city to have thatg many forests and 2 corn... supreme. I just thought that this team would implode with frustration with any more delays. Anyway, the die has been cast.

 

[Simon_c]

Humm. I'm not sure why we didn't revolt on turn 0, it would have cost us nothing, and if for some reason we didn't want one of the civics, we could have revolted back and be where we are now.

With marble there, will be we better getting a worker, settler and agriculture out to get the oracle ? Or will that slow our research down for the CS sling ? When I was testing, it was the research that was slowing us down.. But, I wasn't building windmills.

In any event, I think we want a worker next, not a warrior. We would need wheel sooner rather than later to link up the cities too, or maybe with marble we can build oracle in city#2..


City locations:
Settling on the wine 2N1W of the rice will give us 13 forests. Is that good enough for the NP city ?
Should marble/sheep go 1E of the marble ? It would still grow at +3 working marble and sheep ? I guess it's 10 turns to oracle once marble and sheep are improved, or 13 turns immediately after the city is founded if we settle on the marble. (I think. is the city there a base of 2 2 ? )

 

[BLubmuz]

Sweeta, well done.
I hope you MM well.

Simon, the warrior is needed to grow s.3. But it will not completed.
If the MM is done in the right way, we'll grow s.3 1t. before the warrior and we'll switch to worker.
I posted (#3, page 1) a detailed autolog with all my notes about tiles to work and how to produce until t.17. It's the key to any further strategy

Forget any tech i don't listed if we want succeed in the CS sling.

More comments will follow after i'll see the save.
Also, i'll update #2, page 1.

WT, the road will be the 2nd thing the worker will build, right after the windmill on the hill SW.
Then he will have to road to the marble site, and the improvements around Capital will be done by worker #2.

Good, i gave me marble on my test, we can respect that till the last hammer.

Aim: CS sling on turn 46, GW on turn 43.

I'd like to see if someone will do better. Pity i'll have to wait 'til july.

 

[Mesix]

Humm. I'm not sure why we didn't revolt on turn 0, it would have cost us nothing, and if for some reason we didn't want one of the civics, we could have revolted back and be where we are now.

With marble there, will be we better getting a worker, settler and agriculture out to get the oracle ? Or will that slow our research down for the CS sling ? When I was testing, it was the research that was slowing us down.. But, I wasn't building windmills.

In any event, I think we want a worker next, not a warrior. We would need wheel sooner rather than later to link up the cities too, or maybe with marble we can build oracle in city#2..


City locations:
Settling on the wine 2N1W of the rice will give us 13 forests. Is that good enough for the NP city ?
Should marble/sheep go 1E of the marble ? It would still grow at +3 working marble and sheep ? I guess it's 10 turns to oracle once marble and sheep are improved, or 13 turns immediately after the city is founded if we settle on the marble. (I think. is the city there a base of 2 2 ? )

What a great place for the NP/NE city! It will have the forests plus Rice, Cows, and Wine resources in its BFC.

Did you find Marble? If so it would make a nice city #2 location to link up and rush the Oracle. It looks like we may have 3 cities (capital plus 2) to plan for with early settlers (2x) and workers.

Nice turn set BTW. Thanks for getting the ball rolling.