SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · Jun 5, 2009

Espionage missions are not possible with barbs.
Tested. It's logical, we haven't espionage points for them.
Anyway, i brought a spy in Atlantis, and i've seen "cannot perform espionage" in red.

I have also to revise some numbers about Sushi:
I managed to found it in the same turn as Mining. Turn 161.
Built immediately 1 executive each, spread to Athens.

To have 4 cities we need to arrive on turn 168 or so. This left only 25 turns to the end. Thus my 7200 :science:

will be reduced to 180*25= 4500.
Always good. Let's go for it.

More: the Forbidden Palace can be built in Lisbona, but i think it's better build it in Sparta. Testing this too.
I took note on the Distance from Palace costs by having it in Lisbona, so i can compare with the ones by having it in Sparta, but some 10 turns earlier.
Leiria would be the optimal location, but it takes too long.
Same the Moai: the ideal location will be Evora, but only if we capture it with a forge. Otherwise, Borsippa.

Edit: test done for the FP: it's far better build it in Sparta.

unclethrill · Jun 5, 2009

Can barbs actually achieve a win condition? I seen them end a game for a player but never actually win outright.

Simon_c · Jun 5, 2009

Is there any other benefit to getting a spy into atlantis ?

BLubmuz · Jun 5, 2009

unclethrill said:
Can barbs actually achieve a win condition? I seen them end a game for a player but never actually win outright.

Actually, they can defeat a player, build WW, but i never seen barbs win.
I *suppose* that if you're the only player left and they defeat you, they win by conquest.

Simon_c said:
Is there any other benefit to getting a spy into atlantis ?

Any, none, zero. A spy can go there but it has nothing to do.

If you missed it, the benefits from ForbiddenP. in Sparta are huge. Start it once it completes its present building or unit.
I think the Moai in Borsippa are the best choice: we can benefit from them earlier and an otherwise poor city will become a very good one.

Building rules for conquered cities:
- if not coastal, forge. If forge there, CH.
- If coastal and no LH there, LH, then forge. If both present, CH. If all those buildings are there, library. See for granaries. Usually we found them, but not always.
BTW, change the queue in Leiria with a granary.

Building rules for core cities: after Uni (cheap for us) market. If coastal, harbor > market. Then Banks.
Grocer will have precedence over observatories, with the exception of LP and Pindus.
Once completed its queue, LP will go Lab > Bank.

We're runnig at a low rate, we need commerce multipliers.

I'll explain the benefits of FP in Sparta.

Spoiler :

BLubmuz · Jun 5, 2009

I started the FP later than we can do in the actual game, so maybe we can gain 1 turn.

I also was lucky on a forest spreaded to Pindus, so i could chop one of the FP outside the BFC for the NE.

Made a test until the end.
Spreaded Sushi to 9 cities and Mining to 16.
Launched on turn 190, the best date i ever managed.

Reversed the order to avoid intelligence by other teams

Mesix · Jun 5, 2009

BLubmuz said:
Actually, they can defeat a player, build WW, but i never seen barbs win.
I *suppose* that if you're the only player left and they defeat you, they win by conquest.

As soon as you are the only player left (barbarians don't count) you will win Conquest VC. The barbarians can't win...they can just make you lose.

BLubmuz · Jun 5, 2009

Mesix said:
As soon as you are the only player left (barbarians don't count) you will win Conquest VC. The barbarians can't win...they can just make you lose.

right, of course.
I was concentrated on my tests while answering.

BTW what about them?

Simon_c · Jun 5, 2009

OK. Playing now.
I'll put the FP into Sparta ahead of any more frigates.

Simon_c · Jun 5, 2009

OK Here goes.

T144:
LP in spata.
Dropped the para into Faro and loaded onto ship. Took out Joao's Carrack to stop it causing problems in the future.
jumped parras acording to Bulbz' instructions, but the ones in Braganza were not able to jump this turn.
Airship bombed the mace/treb stack.

T145:
Printing press in.
We get a GEng in Launchpad.
Paras get bombed by airships. Joao seemed to be splitting his attacks between Leiria and N of Guimaries
I think the treb/mace stack is heading for Leiria.

Win 2 attacks against Guimaras and 3 against Coimbra. Still one troop left in each

Drop two paras into the fort 2N of Guimaras.
Need to leave 3-4 paras in Leiria due to incomming mace/pike/+5trebs.

T146
The attack on Guimaras starts again, (4 more enemy troops there) loose just 1 para there.
Paras in Leiria take out the mace/pike/treb stack sitting next to them.
Coimbra falls too without losses.

T147:
Wang and Huayna declare on Shaka.
So, I sold him Rifeling and sold Hayan DR.

Moved most Paras from Leiria to Guimaras to strike at Lisbona
and put 3 outside lisbona to soften it up.
I probably moved too many paras to Guimaras.. Not sure yet.

T148:
Nearly take Evora
Do some damage to Lisbona.

they should both fall on T149

Joao has 5 cities, so I don't think he's settled any Islands yet, so he should fall next turnset unless I've screwed up the troop placement...

Simon_c · Jun 5, 2009

Here's the save

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm9/Fifth_Element_SG009_AD1590_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

and the turn log

Spoiler :

Simon_c · Jun 5, 2009

And the autolog

Spoiler :

Mesix · Jun 6, 2009

Nice TS. First glance at the save looks like 3 more of Joao's cities should fall in 1-2 turns. The war could be over in the next TS.

I noticed this in the autolog:
Wang Kon(Korea) declares war on Stalin(Russia)
Huayna Capac(Inca) declares war on Stalin(Russia)

Maybe we can get some paratroopers ready to assist our two allies in their efforts. We can get a shared war bonus, :gold:

from conquering cities, and a colony/vassal who's research we can direct. As Unclethrill stated above, the only downside is a little war wearienss, but that shouldn't last long.

Simon_c · Jun 6, 2009

I mentioned it in my report too.
We'll have lots of paras and yes, Joao should be out of it in the next TS, then what do we do with them ? :evil:

BLubmuz · Jun 6, 2009

Mesix said:
Nice TS. First glance at the save looks like 3 more of Joao's cities should fall in 1-2 turns. The war could be over in the next TS.

I noticed this in the autolog:
Wang Kon(Korea) declares war on Stalin(Russia)
Huayna Capac(Inca) declares war on Stalin(Russia)

Maybe we can get some paratroopers ready to assist our two allies in their efforts. We can get a shared war bonus, from conquering cities, and a colony/vassal who's research we can direct. As Unclethrill stated above, the only downside is a little war wearienss, but that shouldn't last long.

Yes, seems a good TS.
I can't understand why Evora is still Portuguese with our 3 landed paras there. Maybe you delay their trip?

A war in Europe/Asia will not gain us a single turn for the lauch.
As i already said, the only interesting thing Stalin has is Silk and we already have it. Peacefully.
Not only a little WW, but also away costs. A war can also distract us from our final target. Just to remember:

Launch ASAP

Pity we pop another GE, i could bet we have a GS.
What is the best use for him?
1) rush SoL with 2 GEs, to have it completed in 1 turn.
2) rush the entire Broadway

the first is a bit of a waste, since there're 4 forests to chop right outside the BFC

FYI, in my last attempt i went lazy. It was just a test for Sushi and to see if it could help, no?
Shaka sneak attacked NY, still defended by a Xbow. Lost the city. Reload.
Well, the best use for the Paras is to garrison all the coastal cities with one of them, 2 in the Atlantic coast and Greenland. Add some in LP, ready to be airlifted where needed and some in a couple continental cities ready to cover the hot points.
We do not have an enormous army, if you consider this.
The only units we'll build will be destroyers and battleships. Sparta and Panama will have a drydock (after the factory) and produce only ships until we have a dozen.
In my attempts usually Shaka declares once he has Astro and his targets are: NY, Greenland and mainly Braga.

Mesix · Jun 6, 2009

With 8 paratroopers, we can chew through Russia in about 10-12 turns. After we are finished, we'll have a colony/vassal with 10+ cities and 8 paratroopers who can jump from Europe to Africa. The best defense is a good offense. If we attack Shaka in Africa, he can't attack us in America. The whole time we will be getting :gold:

from every city that we conquer to run deficit research. As soon as we take a city we will "liberate" it to our colony so there will be no maintenance costs. The cost of having a few troops overseas will be more than covered with the :gold:

that we will earn taking cities.

How could it possibly not improve our finish date? Deficit research means that we tech faster. Having a colonly that we can direct research for means that there are 2-3 techs that we can force them to research and we can trade for.

BLubmuz · Jun 6, 2009

Mesix said:
With 8 paratroopers, we can chew through Russia in about 10-12 turns. After we are finished, we'll have a colony/vassal with 10+ cities and 8 paratroopers who can jump from Europe to Africa. The best defense is a good offense. If we attack Shaka in Africa, he can't attack us in America. The whole time we will be getting from every city that we conquer to run deficit research. As soon as we take a city we will "liberate" it to our colony so there will be no maintenance costs. The cost of having a few troops overseas will be more than covered with the that we will earn taking cities.

How could it possibly not improve our finish date? Deficit research means that we tech faster. Having a colonly that we can direct research for means that there are 2-3 techs that we can force them to research and we can trade for.

Your points about gain money from conquest and then give the cities to our vassal can be interesting. But we don't need to go in Europe, we can go in Africa directly with 2 more galleons.
9 paras are more than enough for a sneak attack.
The problem is that, see the rifles i can see in Shaka's city late in the game, i can imagine his army. If Joao has a respectable one, Shaka has an indecent big one.
True, we have paras but what we do once he arrives to rifling?
Our vassal surely can't help us with research and we need at least 2 cities to liberate a colony. We also lost immediately some good trades for resources.

Anyway, after next TS, when the Portuguese war should be over, i'll try a test.
But for now i can't see how this can improve our finish date.
Our cities will be too busy building structures to build military, thus the army we have is all we can have. Not much for Shaka, i think.

Simon_c · Jun 6, 2009

I can't understand why Evora is still Portuguese with our 3 landed paras there. Maybe you delay their trip?

The mistake was taking Joao's Carac out with the frigate first. Left me 1 square away from Evora at the end of the turn.

greatbeyond · Jun 6, 2009

I'll look at the past TS and come up with some sort of a PPP for sometime Sunday.

unclethrill · Jun 6, 2009

Simon_c said:
The mistake was taking Joao's Carac out with the frigate first. Left me 1 square away from Evora at the end of the turn.

I doubt the carrack would have been able to cause too much trouble but at least it won't be destroying any nets while we finish off Joao.

BLubmuz · Jun 6, 2009

unclethrill said:
I doubt the carrack would have been able to cause too much trouble but at least it won't be destroying any nets while we finish off Joao.

Carracks are like caravls: they can't pillage. The differnce is that they can transport any unit. But the AI seems to not use them in this way.

SGOTM 09 - Fifth Element

HoF Quattromaster

Why am I up right now?

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

HoF Quattromaster

The Allfather

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

Prince

Prince

Prince

The Allfather

Prince

HoF Quattromaster

The Allfather

HoF Quattromaster

Prince

King

Why am I up right now?

HoF Quattromaster

Similar threads