Basicaly, accoording to my calculation above... Baring the health the harbor IS useless
SdL is going to grow 2 pop fast at which point the harbor is useless...
at 2 commerce +110% = 4.2 beakers = 40 turns to pay off a Airport if it only gives 2 commerce. That is with NON-marble gold, marble-gold: 71 turns
SdL is now getting 11, 8, and 8, with the airport to add another TR. Some of that is from grabbing higher-value TRs, but with the additional +150% from harbor and customer house I think we are coming out at least as well as having that TR in JH and perhaps better. Plus we get health from the harbor, which SdL will need as it grows.
On settling extra cities, if we wanted to do so... I think we should have done so earlier... i.e. the city SW of IT.
Right now I think we best take Australia of HC's hands to form our off-continent cities.
Not sure any overseas conquest will be worthwhile, but we can evaluate that more closely later. Agree on not settling more "filler" cities in our territory.
True FH is going to take a long while to build it.... If anything we want cottages now I think... we want commerce/beakers... We do need to balance that out with some Preserves as the happyness requires. Also we should try and mix-and-match the hills in, to eat up the food there. Later on we can surely workshop it all the way possibly build a Space part or two and/or Space Elevator.
I built one preserve, but if we can get rid of the WW we will have more than enough happiness.
I am slightly concerned about the - diplo we will get due to "stop trade" requests. These we do not want to say no to, but we cannot say yes either... because we will lose our 3 commerce traderoutes to WK.
On the other hand if the Incense keeps our citizens working... do it... but unly JIT I think?
Obviously things went differently on this....
Because of atlantis' plenty national wonders it has acculated loads of culture. Barbs you cannot kill, unlike your average AI. As a result you have high "we want our motherland" factors as shown in a test by me some pages ago.
This would make for 20 or so "motherland"
, along with your say pop 10
that requires 30 happyness to grow to pop 10.... Or even 20 happy to have a pop 1, I have no clue how we would do that??
Yes, Atlantis is an evil temptation placed by the designer, a mirage to lure unwary Civ players to a watery doom.
But atleast a live
Odds were against the barbs doing that much damage. But the result was good.
Our traderoutes
, I wouldnt have agreed... War on our terms not AI terms IMHO.
This was probably a mistake by me.
But with Shaka declaring, and Stalin having enough on his hands (and WK the likely target), I was expecting a mass declaration. Worries were expressed about trading with WK and taking diplo negatives with the other AIs -- refusing to join the war would pile up the same negatives. This way we get positives, and can sign peace as soon as WK agrees to talk.
Cottages as far as the eye can see! in particular since we have a second source already. Coal I think only produced unhealthy with factories and industrial park right? Whats the problem?
Until we build factories, no problems. But once we do, the unhealth will start piling up.
Heavy losses, but finaly... How do you read that WW?? and what does it mean?? Is it going to drop roughly 50% just because we capture SoZ? Sounds strange?? Once build WW shouldnt go away IMHO untill the war is over, or??
Perhaps it would have been more effective if we had taken Akkad first?? Something to try in a replay?
The WW can be seen if you hover over the leader's name in the bottom-right score list. SoZ doubles whatever the "real" WW would be with that leader. So we had 393 just before the final unit hit Babylon, and taking the city would have increased it to 444. But since SoZ is now ours, it is back to the real underlying WW of 222. It can not go down further until the war ends, and only decays slowly (very slowly) during peace. Eliminating Hammi obviously gets rid of all of it.
Attacking Akkad would have been worse, because every unit killed and every enemy city taken increases WW. We definitely wanted Babylon taken ASAP; took too long as it was.
some quick comments...
We overcleared JH of forests a litte and gotten some unhappy here, why didnt you insert Odeon/Temple there for the happyness? Keeping our citizens working is worth a 1 turn build??
The worse WW just appering this turn -- we can insert the build now. Although hopefully WW will drop some next turn due to SoZ capture. When I began the cottage conversion, JH was balanced at the happy cap.
LM, it is going to be turn 173 before we get another GP from there... Stick with a GM though I think??
Stick with the merchants, yes. More gold per turn, multiplied by market/grocer/soon-to-be-bank. And another merchant would mix nicely for golden age fodder, even if we do not want the trade mission cash.
Customs in SdL has taken the Cuzco traderoute from JH, dont know if that is a good thing ??
I think it is a good thing overall. SdL gets +150% on TR from harbor and customs house, and JH gets a lesser TR but not that much lesser. So overall we gain, even with Oxford + academy in JH. Inland capitals can never compete for TR with coastal cities once the harbors and customs houses start going up.
SdL was at 4, 4, 3 as per your earlier calc. Now it is 11, 8, 8 -- +16 commerce. Some of that is offset by losing slightly in JH and elsewhere, but they did not lose 16 commerce even spread across multiple cities as the TRs got shuffled around.
Yes, now that Confu spread there a temple is good.
Forget the factory in Sleeps, yes it will help longterm, but we need Theatre + Odeon there for the happy. And some more troopers first before we commit to a factory. Factory adds nearly nothing compared to the +125% we already have there.
I thought about this, and I agree -- more paras first, and happiness as we need it. We will want the factory eventually, though, and earlier means more total payoff.
I wouldnt transport our GM in a damaged Galleon, we dont need him NOW we have time to heal the Galleon and transport him at that point in time. Move the galleon into SdL Heal, transport.
There should be time to get the galleon healed. At most we delay the GM mission by 1 or 2 turns.
We have 1400 gold in the bank at 150gpt thats 9 turns not taking into account any gold gotten from conquest or trade. We have time with the GM!
And with SoL Comming up, we will be running some Merchants say 8 Merchants for 24 GPT, and the bank comming up in LM for 12 GPT adding some 36 gpt to our cash
We should be good for atleast 10 based on that alone, with war booty 4 * 100 we should be good for another 2/3 turns more. We have time with the GM!
Plus CiB will finish the NE in a couple turns, and we should get somewhere around 400 gold from non-builds. Assuming we actually get gold for all the non-builds, and not for only one.
Why move Thorrez to the Coal if 1) You are not sure we want to connect it 2) We dont quite need it yet
Instead Thorrez should be working on a windmill for TR, for now we road it and move SE for a windmill I think?
In case we want it, it will be ready. At the rate we are teching, Railroad is not far off so we may want coal connected. And the coal is roaded now, and 1 more turn mining will finish it.
What did capturing Babylon cost us?
Note our shrine as gone up to 25, someone is spreading Confu out there! But with babylon down, dont think any AI combination/spreading is going to stop this war...
Need to check on the cost, I will have to compare T139 and T140 saves. The whole "no popup window" thing rather threw me off.
Not much Confu spread, other than IT. Shaka and Joao still have minimal votes for AP, although Shaka might have spread it to one or two more cities.
1258 beakers per turn now needed, at turn 140. We are producing 1123 beakers (up from 750 at the start of Chris' turnset
)
With SoL comming up and 11 continental cities thats atleast 33 more beakers comming.
Say on average +50% beakers = 16 more
Add 10 beakers for cottage growth...
1123 + 33 + 16 + 10 =1182, not quite there yet, but getting there
Definitely progress. And if we can get Rocketry from HC, that is several thousand more beakers saved.
Ofcourse we will lose some of this once we go with Uni Suff, but its a start
We need to start thinking just about when we want to swap to Cottage civics (FS/Uni Suff) and time to build Cristo right about there...
The cottage conversion at JH started T137, so US + FS would be about T160 at the earliest. However many turns to build Cristo before that gives us our window for JH to finish SoL, build some happiness, and whatever else. With the reduced hammers at JH, not as much time as we would probably like.
Edit:
With all our cities building gold, except for JH, SdL and Sleeps we are currently running at -1gpt! -1gpt!!!!
We dont -by a long shot- have enough cities! Joao must die!
I do not understand this statement?
More cities == more maintenance == even further below breakeven. The new cities will need infra, so they will not be building gold to make up the difference -- at least not immediately.
I am still not convinced we want Joao's cities. Maybe conquer them for gold and then liberate them...possibly keeping the best ones or the ones with resources we do not have. But some of them are junk, like Sippar, and would just be a net drain.
We are currently paying 50gpt in city distance maintenance. Which means communism will pay of the 2800 beaker research in about 2800 / 50 = 56 turns = just about break even now...
But if we addopt Communism, we dont have to worry about distance = FP and Versailles are much lower if at all priorities.... As well as courthouses...
But running State Property means 2 less commerce per windmill and forest preserve. Do we have 25 windmlls + forest preserves? I think we do, or are at least close to that many. So Communism does not really save us any gold per turn. And we lose 6 health in every city, a significant loss.
I think staying in Enviro and building FP (and maybe Versailles) is the better approach. Keep all that windmill and preserve commerce, and reduce some of the distance cost. Plus the 2800 beaker research cost. Although the free GSpy could be useful.
And courthouses -- most of our city maintenance is number of cities maintenance, which is not affected by SP. We need the courthouses even if we adopt SP.
Though it would be nice to have Mining Inc (possible target for the GE?) adding hammers specificaly in our 'last-part-building-cities" might be helpfull.
SP blocks corporations, and Enviro boosts their costs. Not sure Mining Inc would be worthwhile. Our saved GE is for Three Gorges, although we might get another.
It already was in my turnset
Yes, Hammi was very annoying. Including the cat near Opis on T132, I killed 28 Babylonian units during the turnset, for 3 paras lost. With most of those attacks against fortified units in a 60% culture city, and our paras having at least 20% damage and usually more, this is not a bad result. 31 total battles, from 85% to 99+%, losing three is pretty close to the expected outcome.
Although losing that one at 95% and not even scratching the defender was hard to take.
Losing occasionally at 95% happens. But not even wounding the other guy?
Great; that's what I hoped for and why I sent our CIB-missionary to Two Rivers, which already had a religion
Free spread of your shrine religion is always nice.
Already? Wow, that was fast ... I agree that he should be Super-Medic. I love it how your units completely heal in 1 or 2 turns!
Note the 28 units killed -- lots of GG points.
Yes, we got gold; I checked it before and after the last fight for every city.
Because no choice between keeping and razing the city means no information on pillaged gold either.
OK, that explains it. I do not think I have played with no city razing before, so I was not expecting that to happen. I can check the save from the previous turn, calculate the per-turn change, and should be able to get the pillage figure for Babylon. As well as the change in our costs per turn.
As we have another source of Coal, cottage it!
I was leaning that way, and it looks like everyone agrees. Should we consider building a spy and assigning it to guard the tile? Having a single resource to sabotage...not good to risk it for something that important.
He should have used most of his units to defend his threathened capital, which should mean that all other cities are down to 2-3 defenders.
And he cannot whip forever ...
After this fall of Babylon, the war should go faster
I certainly hope so!
I really did not expect the fight for Babylon to take as long as it did. But with no siege and wounded paras, even a sword can present a tough fight.
I guess you have a base-value of war weariness with every Civ, which is doubled for the Civ that controls the Statue of Zeus. Once it loses it, you're back to your base-value?!
I believe this is correct, but the unhappiness in the cities is "set" at the start of each turn. So it has not changed this turn even though SoZ is now ours. Next turn, we should see a good bit less WW.
On the other hand we could build the CR as I've wanted all along. Swap one turn into HR bump HC to friendly trade for Rocketry then back to Rep/US.
We will definitely build CR, it is just a question of when. No more than 20 turns from now, though.
On quick changes, do you get back all your previously accumulated "fave civic" bonus, or do you go back to +1 and take 10 turns per increment as before? If you start at +1 again, a quick swap may not be enough.
The war weariness should drop next turn so hopefully we can get some unhappy pop back. I'm sure that is what has happened to me before after taking the SoZ. I don't usually take much notice of these things though.
(If we do go after Joao straight after Ham we are going to suffer a lot more so we would need to build Mount Rushmore somewhere).
Rushmore would definitely be useful, just have to decide where to build it. JH could do it, if we are sure we do not want something else there (IW?). Some jails might not be a bad idea either if we go after Joao -- another -25% and lots of extra EP.
The GG. Can we please make a woody III C1 medic para now. It makes a better healer than a medic III on a single stack (pretty sure anyway) plus it is much better at attacking with its first strikes. I'm really sad I didn't push more for this earlier looking at our wounded units.
Our units were much more severely wounded at points during the turnset.
A Medic III is equally good as a Woods III + Medic I for the same tile, plus the Medic III gives the same bonus to adjacent units while Woods gives nothing to adjacent. Also, I do not think we want our GG-super-medic attacking, so I prefer the Medic III.
What to make it out of? A para can keep up with our other paras, but that is one fewer para to fight with. Still, for mobility that is probably the thing to do since we do not have any move 2 units yet.
Tech path? Regardless of what route we take definitely plastics is the main next aim for the 3 gorges imho. We do lose the fur as a source of trade so rock n roll we be a good replacement. We do want the IW built asap for these wonders. So probably I would go Steel, Indus (we need to know if we have aluminium or where we can get it), RR, Comb, Plastics.
Sounds pretty good to me, although we might want RR before Industrialism? I do like the idea of finding out where the aliuminum is, though. We need to know if we need an overseas war (or a fast settler) to claim some.
Nat Wonders. I personally can't see much use for the Globe Theatre atm anywhere so I would make this a low priority. Nat Epic/Nat Park obviously CiB. It needs a factory and Industrial park asap as well to run the free engineers.
Globe in SdL makes sense for me. Would could build an odeon and a market and probably get by, by why not build the Globe since we can? Than no more worries there, whatever WW becomes.
Nat Park is already built, NE will be very shortly (2 turns).
The most important imho is the Ironworks. I still can't see any better city than Babylon. JH would be a candidate if we weren't cottaging everywhere. We do have some other good production sites but none to match these 2.
With US we will get some hammers back in JH. If we can get enough infra built in Babylon to build the IW, that could work. But IW is very expensive, and Babylon has a lot of rebuilding to do and some turns in revolt before it can even start. Can Babylon finish IW soon enough to be worthwhile, compared to JH or SdL or Dur Kur or Sleeps?
Mount Rushmore probably SdL as Sleeps should be building units if we attack Joao.
SdL only has one national wonder slot left after Moai. Rushmore here means no Globe. Maybe IT could build Rushmore? Or GV or BT?
Just one last one I would leave Ham's hill city West of Babylon as the last one to take. Might not make much difference but at least if we lose a few units attacking if won't matter to much then.
Getting rid of that city would free land tiles for Sippar to work. I think we want that sooner rather than later, along with Akkad to remove borders at CiB so we can safely finish the last two preserves.
I'm going to read all the comments... then hopefully put together the plan tomorrow. I have a 12 hour day today, where I can't look at the save. Tomorrow will be an early day, Thursday is another 12+... so I'm looking to play Friday or Saturday.
If that works for everyone.
Sounds good to me, Mastiff. Gives us time to discuss things properly.
Unfortunately until this game I've never really thought about it. Just knew it remained. 
??
