SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

[jesusin]

I hope to play until Shaka is no more, soon. Things to discuss to a conclusion:

1. Stalin, Joao or both? I really need to know this next turn, because of galleon logistics. I would prefer sending a quick 6 paras to Joao to grab 3 cities, but Joao now has Guilds and maybe he'll help us with another tech or two. Stalin has a lot of cities to plunder, but how many are really useful?

2. Also, if we're only going to take 2 or 3 of Joao's cities, we need to have conf misses for any cities that don't have it yet to counter Joao's revolting culture, so we need to decide exactly which of his cities we want before vassalizing him.

I say leave Joao alone, take all Stalin cities able to sustain the 6gpt city maint + 4or6gpt pop and civics maint they'll cost. Well be in SP quite soon.´

Be good this week, kids

 

[LowtherCastle]

Have a good week, jesusin!!!

 

[Erkon]

Have a nice week jesusin!

If we should decide for Joao, then we grab all his cities. No silly vassal stuff.

 

[klarius]

Well, I think, Guimares + Lisbon is worth more than the whole Russian empire.

 

[Gnejs]

Yes, that is already in the PPP. Not sure how much it's delayed by postponing the levee, but hopefully not more than a turn or so. The bigger problem is your desire to switch out of OrgRel. That will slow down a lot of builds, including, NE, Taj, HG, and others. Maybe we should build forges before switching out of OrgRel.

Sorry, I should have noticed...

I hope to play until Shaka is no more, soon. Things to discuss to a conclusion:

1. Stalin, Joao or both? I really need to know this next turn, because of galleon logistics. I would prefer sending a quick 6 paras to Joao to grab 3 cities, but Joao now has Guilds and maybe he'll help us with another tech or two. Stalin has a lot of cities to plunder, but how many are really useful?

2. Also, if we're only going to take 2 or 3 of Joao's cities, we need to have conf misses for any cities that don't have it yet to counter Joao's revolting culture, so we need to decide exactly which of his cities we want before vassalizing him.

Well, I think, Guimares + Lisbon is worth more than the whole Russian empire.

Agree with klarius. Russia does not look particularly good now that we don't need Moscow for NP.

One other, minor, comment. Mining the coal at MW will cost us 1 food = half a specialist. Doesn't look like a good tradeoff to me.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Mining the coal at MW will cost us 1 food = half a specialist. Doesn't look like a good tradeoff to me.

That's why I was reluctant to put it in the PPP until both Erkon and klarius wanted it. I intend to road and pre-windmill the mine so that we can revert back as soon as we get the Taj Mahal, or whatever, done.

 

[Gnejs]

That's why I was reluctant to put it in the PPP until both Erkon and klarius wanted it. I intend to road and pre-windmill the mine so that we can revert back as soon as we get the Taj Mahal, or whatever, done.

MW will be at -1 food if we complete HG... I'd suggest using those worker turns on something more useful.

 

[Erkon]

Gnejs, are you proposing that we skip Stalin and go for Joao instead?

 

[Gnejs]

Gnejs, are you proposing that we skip Stalin and go for Joao instead?

klarius proposed it, I am just supporting the idea.

 

[ZPV]

I've changed my mind. Having stopped to think about it, Stalin's land isn't all that good. Let's attack Joao after Shaka/Hun. We may need to convert him to Confu first, to avoid "Stop the war against Joao".
We can capture his southern cities (Faro, Evora, Lisbon, Guimaraes, Oporto, Braga) fairly quickly, and then vassalize him for Guilds, ignoring the northern cities with 8+ deserts and no food. As far as I can tell, the only city with any cultural pressure in this case is Oporto. This gives us a useful tech earlier than we could trade for it, and makes happiness less of a problem, with Notre Dame and another vassal.

It should also leave us enough leeway with the dom limit for another military campaign, possibly in Korea.

 

[LowtherCastle]

MW will be at -1 food if we complete HG... I'd suggest using those worker turns on something more useful.

Even worse, -2 food at pop23 until we build the grocer. On the other hand, we'll have food to spare, since we won't grow past pop23 later on. The mine would be done next turn, so the question is what do we value more...?

48h (3hpt*16t)

or

140b+6wkrt (6bpt*5t+10bpt*11t+6wkr-turns)

 

[ZPV]

One more idea, somewhat long-term. Let's farm a couple overseas cities (Libyan+Assyrian, I guess) and grow them as large as possible for the trade route coins in all our domestic cities. We will already have MW and MR for cities on the other continent, and for a while, Atlantis, but we will be running out of good foreign trade routes as we capture more cities.

 

[Erkon]

Ok, go for Joao instead of Stalin. Do we really need to convert him? We will grab his high-pop cities fairly quickly so a us voting no should be enough. And we can't convert him, can we? Nah - conquer him fast and furious.

Yes to farm cities in Africa/Europa, probably a lot of them.

LC, do whatever you want with the coal. 48 hammers is better than 140 beakers. Worker turns doesn't matter. Just my opinion.

 

[ZPV]

Go ahead and mine the coal. After needed buildings are done (grocer, anything else?) then re-windmill it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

One more idea, somewhat long-term. Let's farm a couple overseas cities (Libyan+Assyrian, I guess) and grow them as large as possible for the trade route coins in all our domestic cities. We will already have MW and MR for cities on the other continent, and for a while, Atlantis, but we will be running out of good foreign trade routes as we capture more cities.

I have also been thinking about this. uMu is our best target with +30-34f. Assyrian +23f if we farm the horses. Libyan is +23f with a silk mine, but would be a waste of watermills or workshops.

Anyway, that would be a good reason to put Moai in Assyrian, so it could build necassary health and happy buildings.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Let's attack Joao after Shaka/Hun. We may need to convert him to Confu first, to avoid "Stop the war against Joao".

Ok, go for Joao instead of Stalin. Do we really need to convert him? We will grab his high-pop cities fairly quickly so a us voting no should be enough. And we can't convert him, can we? Nah - conquer him fast and furious.

The next AP proposal is due T122. If I'm understanding this, there will be nothing to propose, so T123 there will be a general election, which Joao will win. Then the next proposal cycle will be T130, about the time we're ready to attack him. So we would have two choices: 1) time our DoW for just after the T130 proposal, or 2) convert him, which might screw up the AP for a long time to come (~35t) or lead to another election sooner.

Btw, if we convert Joao, he should go Friendly, right? Then we could immediately trade for Guilds. No waiting for DoP. I was analyzing that this morning anyway, because GUilds is worth it at 1000b. I need to build a spy or send that one over. IF we plant it in Faro, it could get pretty cheap. I've also put the EP back to Joao, just now.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, I'm going to play a couple more turns.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hmmm... I wonder if Joao knowing Stalin means that he still won't trade Philo when he meets HC. Anyone online know? Wouldn't want to waste a good settler.

Edit: 2 out of 4 knowing the tech, I think he'll still trade.

 

[Erkon]

Hmmm... I wonder if Joao knowing Stalin means that he still won't trade Philo when he meets HC. Anyone online know? Wouldn't want to waste a good settler.

Edit: 2 out of 4 knowing the tech, I think he'll still trade.

They will probably meet anytime soon with caravels, but why gamble? Now that we have the settler in place I suggest you settle it. The only drawback is that HC will tech slower, but I don't think we can count on his research anyway with only two cities.

 

[klarius]

You don't need to be concerned about AP resolutions. Even now Hammi and Joao cannot pass a peace or assign city resolution against us. Needs 96 votes and they only have 94.