SGOTM 09 - Xteam

Reading all your thoughts, it seems to me that the possible sites to settle include:
On the NE Corn
South to maximize land tiles
Two-tiles north of the start location

Two tiles would make for the best early settler/worker machine, but the worst long term capital - only 1 visible hill and no visible riverside. Actually, it's not even that much better of a settler/worker machine. Windmills and watermills net 2 food/hammers while fish net 3 early. The other two capital locations have at least 4+ millable tiles.
 
OK, I lied. I settled the fish/corn site as my second city. I don't know what the real map will hold, but the fish/corn site gets productive more quickly than any other 2nd city site on the practice map. 3 turns to grow to Pop2 and whip a WB. Then 2 more turns to grow back to Pop2 and start building 4-turn workers. If there isn't an AI close by, it seems better to settle the 2nd city north of the inland capital.

In this turn 43 save, I have just completed the Oracle. I have 3 cities, at Pop4, Pop2, and Pop2. I have 5 workers and 3 warriors. 1 turn away from Animal Husbandry (Wheel and Pottery already researched). 3 watermills, 3 windmills, 2 corn farms, 1 fish net, 2 roads. Copper is not yet hooked. Emphasis on chopping Oracle has delayed road-building, and not having fish in capital means we're a turn or two behind in tech compared with CP's save.
 

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"Without stone, Mids are too expensive. If we find stone, we'll have something to think about." Strongly agree with this assessment.

On this particular practice map, I think your placement of the third city is putting your strategy at a disadvantage compared with my capital placement. Who knows what the real map will bring. Yes, I didn't give much thought to third city placement, as it's almost certainly going to be map dependent. Just wanted to show that the third could be settled that far from the capital that early and still get other critical things done as well. (Understand that I need to test some more to get the Oracle by turn 43.) There may be a strategically important 3rd site that we want to reach out to before backfilling cities near the capital. Yes. But in terms of maximization through turn 42 on our practice map, saving a 2nd/3rd city site on the north coast seems like a winning move, because at pop2, it can work corn and fish and build workers in 4 turns and settlers in 6-7 turns. The capital quickly runs out of use for 2 high food tiles, so having 2 different cities sharing the 2 corn and 1 fish works well. Not, of course, if we settle on the corn. Settling on corn loses its advantage quite early because after 2 corn are farmed in my game, its food is the same as yours. But how many turns are you behind? That's why I posted my save for comparison. I suspect your approach is better, but I remain concerned that it lacks flexibility, plus a couple of turns early might be critical. For example, with your capital location, could you research AH (given no copper) in time for a second city site, and still build the Oracle in a timely manner? I'll try to do that with corn settle and see what sacrifices (like skipping Pottery and/or AH) have to be made.

AH is probably the best early tech to save until after Preisthood. Wheel is very important on quick speed. Pottery gives us the ability to 2pop whip a granary for overflow into Oracle. We could pop whip anything couldn't we? A second settler for the third city might time out well, for instance. And wheat/cow/copper site really should build an early granary. I don't see any urgency in looking for horses. I'd much rather have copper. Agree with that, but we may not have copper nearby, so we need to test whether/how we can get the Oracle built by turn 43 and still research AH.

I'll post a save shortly where I settle the cow/wheat/copper site first and corn/fish site second so we can compare results. I'll also try to match your 5 workers and copper hookup. Comparing results is a good. Think all future testing should get the Oracle built by 43.


Edit: I've downloaded the starting save to have a closer look. I think our practice map matches what we can see in the real map. So what are people's thoughts on the scout move? North to reveal the coast or south to reveal the land? Either way could give us useful info about capital placement. If we find more seafood north, I think that gives stronger incentive to save the coast for a GP farm. If we find coast to the south, that might recommend against a southern settler move. More river or hills to the south would make a southern settler move better.
Might learn the most by moving scout to SE hill.
 
OK, I lied. I settled the fish/corn site as my second city. I don't know what the real map will hold, but the fish/corn site gets productive more quickly than any other 2nd city site on the practice map. 3 turns to grow to Pop2 and whip a WB. Then 2 more turns to grow back to Pop2 and start building 4-turn workers. If there isn't an AI close by, it seems better to settle the 2nd city north of the inland capital.

In this turn 43 save, I have just completed the Oracle. I have 3 cities, at Pop4, Pop2, and Pop2. I have 5 workers and 3 warriors. 1 turn away from Animal Husbandry (Wheel and Pottery already researched). 3 watermills, 3 windmills, 2 corn farms, 1 fish net, 2 roads. Copper is not yet hooked. Emphasis on chopping Oracle has delayed road-building, and not having fish in capital means we're a turn or two behind in tech compared with CP's save.

I'll try to have an appropriate comparison save up before retiring tonight.
 
Might learn the most by moving scout to SE hill.

I agree with this. Looks like that move will reveal 13 tiles and the edges/corners of 15 more. The tile south of the forested hill looks like grassland, so we'll be able to see 3 extra land tiles. The tile SE of the forest hill looks like forest. There may be quite a bit more land that way, unlike the practice save.
 

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I agree with moving to the SE hill.
 
CFR and Misfits have both posted saves which show them with 4 culture less than the max. Looks like they both settled on Turn 1.

Anyone have any argument against the SSE settler scout move?
 
I've played the practice game thru to turn 107 when I acheived the Radio sling from Liberalism. I stayed pretty true to SCT game plan of settling 1 south until he built the 2nd scout. I went for a warrior instead due to the barbs being in play. I had a barb axe attacking while I only had warriors in defense but I pop rushed an airship to weaken him then sacrificed a few 1 turn warriors on forest tile to him before he finally died. No other barbs got inside the cultural boundary thankfully.

I got the Oracle on turn 50. I teched per SCT's plan so I knew Agri, mining, BW, AH, wheel, pot, myst, med, preist & writing by the time the Oracle completed. Athens hit size 6 on turn 48 and I had 2 other cities. I popped 1st GS on T65 used for academy and have saved the others. So I'm sitting on 4 GS and I'm 5 turns away from either a GE or a GP. Athens built Oracle, then Pyramids and later the Hanging Gardens. Pyramids were built when city was above size 10 so it did not take long. Athens is up to size 15 or 16 now with the forest preserves.

This was still a sloppy performance on my part but here is the save file. I played fast and wasn't mm cities like I should have been. The 1000bc save is from when the oracle completed and the 940ad save is the radio sling.
 

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Just a clarification: Are we discussing moving the scout to the SSE hill and then posting a save or discussing settling on the SSE hill without seeing what's around it? Seems to be a bit of confusion here and I'd like it cleared up before a mistake is made.
 
Just a clarification: Are we discussing moving the scout to the SSE hill and then posting a save or discussing settling on the SSE hill without seeing what's around it? Seems to be a bit of confusion here and I'd like it cleared up before a mistake is made.

Sorry, I'll fix my post. I meant SSE scout move.
 
CFR and Misfits have both posted saves which show them with 4 culture less than the max. Looks like they both settled on Turn 1. If it's 4 less than the max, doesn't that imply that they settled on turn 2?

Anyone have any argument against the SSE settler scout move?
Looking at the save posted in the thread, wondering if there isn't a hill 2NW of the start that might provide an equal amount of info.
 
I did have an argument to make but then I realised you were right and the land extends to the east in that southern fog.

Agree SSE seems like the optimum scout move.
 
Here is a corn-settled save through turn 43: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=208527&stc=1&d=1238222670

Oracle has been completed on turn 43 and will come in on 44. Is that safe?

Could have gotten my second settler out 3 turns earlier, if I had built one less worker, and that's probably the way to go. Otherwise, I think this is a good attempt at what I was trying to accomplish: Oracle timely and not in capital (had to get to Priesthood quickly to do this); copper hooked up to get UU built fairly early, creating attractive options; research close to maximum possible (surprised to note that I'm several turns ahead of SCT's save in this respect); and road network well started to prepare for possible rexing and/or rushing.

As I proceeded, realized that if barbs had raged, would not have been able to accomplish this, and that's something to be discussed. Think possible barb problems is both an argument for Oracle in capital and getting a millitary resource hooked up soon.

Not clear to me that corn-settle is optimal, but it certainly seems viable. Will have one more go at it Saturday with Oracle in the capital if there is interest. Perhaps we want to move the scout first.
 

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I don't think we need to worry about raging barbs since that option is not on according to the "settings" screen (see below). Also note that climate is temperate and sea level is medium and we have the standard 6 unknown rivals. Only thing that is unusual is that the info on map type is replaced by a filename - probably some custom map that Gyathaar has used. It is, of course, possible that Gyathaar has placed some barb cities already on the map similar to Jesusins GOTM. But that's only speculation. And still this wouldn't make the barbs raging, only they might have more units they build instead of spawned units.

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Ok, I don't hear any objections to moving the scout SSE, so I will do that in a couple hours and post a screenshot.
 
If you haven't done so yet, I advise you all to read posts 42 on in the Maintenance thread. Very interesting exploit discussion. :hmm:
 
If you haven't done so yet, I advise you all to read posts 42 on in the Maintenance thread. Very interesting exploit discussion. :hmm:

Alan also advises that only the active player uses this on the real map. If your finger slips off the mouse, you'll end up moving the unit. I don't think we want 9 different people all performing this risky maneuver. Try it out on the practice map.

I see what klarius is saying, to some extent. If you do this with the scout and are zoomed out at the right amount, you can see the path bending a bit in certain places, indicating that you would be moving uphill or downhill. If you see the path take a seemingly unnecessary zig-zag, it's a mountain peak. I can't really tell exactly where the ocean borders are though. I guess you could use the settler and check where the computer thinks are good spots to settle. If you find a big expanse of unsettleable land, it's probably ocean.
 
"If you find a big expanse of unsettleable land, it's probably ocean." Or AI territory? If so, that knowledge could be useful in determining early strategy.
 
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