SGOTM 10 - FuzzyWuzzy Psycho Bunnies

[denyd]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/FuzzyWuzzy_SG010_AD0250_01.SAV

Turn Log 3

Turn 0 – 50 AD – Move 4 Horsemen to Ollantaytambo

IBT: Coventry Horse->Worker – Oxford Horse->MDI – Liverpool Library->Harbor – Glouchester Worker->Worker

Turn 1 – 70 AD – Assault on Ollantaytambo: Vet Horse loses to Reg Spear (1/3) – Vet Horse (2/4) kills Reg Spear – Vet Horse (1/4) kills Reg Spear – Elite Horse (2/5) kills Reg Spear and captures Ollantaytambo with 3 slaves – starts worker – Load 3rd MDI to Army – Elite MDI (1/5) kills Reg Archer – Trade Theology to Inca for Monarchy + 53g + 12gpt

IBT: York Horse->Market – Hastings MDI->Library – Norwich Worker->Harbor – Barbarians start Knights Templar

Turn 2 – 90 AD – Position troops for assault on Tiwanaku – Note that Byzantines have Invention

IBT: Leeds Worker->Library

Turn 3 – 110 AD – Sumeria & Byzantines have Education & Invention – Assault on Tiwanaku: MDI Army (10/12) kills Reg Spear – Vet Horse (2/4) kills Reg Spear and Tiwanaku is captured and Incans still live. It turns out that the Inca have settled Huamanga on a southern island.

IBT: Heroic Epic message – London library->MDI – Coventry worker->horseman

Turn 4 – 130 AD – Position troops for Sumerian war

IBT: Nottingham Horse->Horse – Newcastle MDI->library – Oxford MDI->MDI – Dover Horse->Horse – Exeter worker->worker – Manchester worker-worker – Mayans start Sistine Chapel – Barbarians build Sun Tzu’s Art of War & Great Library

Turn 5 – 150 AD – Position troops all set to go next turn

IBT: AI switch wonder builds to Leo’s & Sistine

Turn 6 – 170 AD – Wait a turn to let MDI Army heal

IBT: London MDI->MDI – Glouchester worker->worker

Turn 7 – 190 AD – Demand Sumer withdraw archer and he says ok but the Archer is still there – Declare war on Sumer –Assault on Erech: Vet Horse (1/4) retreats from Vet Sword (3/4) – Vet Horse loses to Reg Enkidu (1/3) – Vet Horse (3/4) kills Reg Enkidu Vet Horse (3/4) kills Vet Sword – Vet Horse loses to Reg Enkidu (2/4) – Vet Horse (1/4) kills Vet Enkidu and Erech is captured – Assault on Isin: Vet Horse (3/5) kills Reg Enkidu and promotes – Vet Horse (4/4) kills Reg Enkidu – Vet Horse (2/4) kills Vet Archer – Vet Horse (3/4) kills Reg Archer and Isin is captured

IBT: Defense of O-Town: Wounded Elite MDI loses to Vet Archer (2/4) – Cuzco worker->worker – Machu-Picchu worker->worker – Birmingham worker->harbor

Turn 8 – 210 AD – Assault on Reading: Vet Pike (3/4) retreats Vet Horse (1/4) – Vet Pike (3/4) retreats Vet Horse (1/4) – Vet Horse (3/4) kills Vet Pike – Vet Horse (3/4) kills Reg Pike – Reg LB (2/3) retreats Vet Horse (1/4) – Vet Horse (1/4) kills Reg Pike and Reading is captured – MDI Army moves to Sumerian Iron – Defense of O-Town: Elite Horse (5/5) kills Vet Archer

IBT: In Erech: Elite Archer (3/5) kills Vet Horse – Oxford MDI->MDI – Liverpool Harbor->Trebuchet

Turn 9 – 230 AD – Defense of Reading: Vet MDI (4/4) kills Vet MDI – Vet Horse loses to Vet Sword (1/4) – Vet Horse (3/4) kills Vet Horse – MDI Army pillages Iron – Vet Horse loses to Elite Archer (1/5) – Assault on Sumer: MDI Army (10/12) kills Vet Pike – MDI Army (9/13) kills Vet Pike

IBT: Discover Invention research Gunpowder – London MDI->MDI – Nottingham horse->horse – Hastings library->horse – Cory worker->harbor – Exeter worker->harbor

Turn 10 – 250 AD – Defense of Reading: Vet MDI (4/4) kills Vet MDI – Assault on Sumer: MDI Army (8/13) kills Reg Pike – MDI Army (6/13) kills Reg Pike and Sumer (with 6 slaves) is captured – Vet Horse (3/4) kills Elite Archer

There are some units in Reading that have movement left. I’m running a research rate that we can’t sustain to complete Gunpowder (we’re spending 34gpt on unit support and with have 39 workers). I feel lucky to win so many horse vs pike battles. Once the MDI Army heals up it will be time to go after Ur and the ToA. Sumer has 6 cities left and we are strong in military against them.

 

[sanabas]

Got it. I'll continue to smack Sumer around, and starve down the captured cities to minimise flips.

 

[Whomp]

Very nice Denyd!! We are accelerating on the territory graph and once we take Ur it will explode to the upside so let's keep the momentum. Those workers will have plenty to develop coming up soon.

It may be time to start talking about how we plan to manage our specialists and what we will consider building in our cities.

BTW we are dead last in post per turn. Let's keep the discussions rolling.

 

[denyd]

Ur is going to be tough. I'd expect 3-4 Veteran Pikes and maybe a LB or two in a size 11 city. Also Umma has at least 1 Vet Pike defending it. If were going to skip researching Chivalry (knights) we should probably switch to MDI for the rest of the Sumerian war.

I'm thinking we got good and bad news on the wonder front as the Barbarians built the Great Library which will slow the research rate on our island. However them getting Sun Tzu means we'll be dealing with Veteran units when we invade. Speaking of invading the Barbarian Nation, are we going to use Cavalry, Muskets & Cannon or Cavalry, Infantry & Artillery for the primary invasion force?

One other item. We are currently spending 34gpt for unit support (we've got nearly 40 workers). Once we take the rest of Sumer, we'll still be spending money for troops. We might want to pop out a couple of settlers to fill in on the west coast and over by Machu Picchu to allow us to have to keep up the research and still war effectively.

 

[CKS]

Looks good.

Building some more cities is a good plan. We need those workers, but unit support has been a research killer for some time.

Ur will be tough, but at least they can't build more pikes without iron.

If we can find a good landing spot while still far from having infantry, I think we should start our invasion with a big stack of cavalry armies, muskets and cannons. Even if we discover that we can't make a lot of progress taking cities without artillery, we can pillage the barbarians into disarray and cut down on the infantry we face. Giving them no resources and no money will make our invasion a lot easier.

 

[denyd]

BTW: When do you want to start the FP in Cuzco?

We also can build the Heroic Epic.

How about we start that in London once we're done with Sumer.

Also an FYI I forgot to mention. We are currently even or ahead of everyone except for Sumer & Byzantium. Both have Education. At last check the Dutch had no level MA techs (meaning no Swiss Mercs at this time).

 

[classical_hero]

By the Looks of it, Team liz has conquered the whole territory. I believe that we should have some of the other AI nations to we can trade with them and make it fastest to the next age and thus get better units to attack the Barb nation.

 

[sanabas]

A blown fuse ate my notes, and caused me to reload from the autosave. So apologies for the lack of detail. Possibly a good thing though, as the notes started off a bit cranky about tax rates, resistance & fliprisk. Cuzco, the city giving us free granaries, had every citizen resisting, and had been like that for at least 12 turns. Almost all other captured cities had the same problem. The tax rate was up at 50%, by turning it down to 30% and hiring a few specialists, I nearly doubled our research speed. We also had multiple cities at size 6 or 12, unable to grow, with huge food surpluses. A settler or 2 out of those cities when they can't grow stops us wasting so much food, lets us fill up our island, and improves our economy as we're allowed more units.

Now the summary of what I did:

Research: researched gunpowder. Byzantines got it the same turn as we did, sumer picked it up slightly later. We're now 3 turns from a chemistry monopoly, at +30ish gpt, and down education to everyone except the dutch. We can trade the chem monopoly around, as we've had the first lot of border expansions from the ToA.

Resistance: We had something like 6 cities resisting. We're now down to 1, Tiwanaku, which has a few Incan resisters left. All our captured cities have been starved down to just 1 foreign citizen, except for Ur, which has the ToA, and Tiwanaku. Both of these are being starved down. Please keep changing every citizen to a scientist, every single turn, until these cities are size 1

Wars: Maya offered an Alliance v the Inca and ROP, I assume because automatically renegotiate was on. I declined, and made peace with the Inca to drop our WW down.
Erech flipped back to Sumer, eating no units. We've captured Ur, recaptured and razed Erech, razed Umma, autorazed a new city. Sumer is down to 4 cities, one of which should fall next turn. WW has kicked in a bit, I'd suggest making peace with Sumer soon, should be able to have them down to just 1 city in the next few turns. They will give us Education for peace now, they won't give up a city yet.

New cities: Founded a couple on the west coast, founded a couple in the south east, used a combat settler next to Erech before razing, and have a couple of settlers en route to the former location of Umma.

Builds: More horses, MDIs and Pikes. I have started building courthouses, as we really need them. Any city not completely corrupt should get one. Haven't started FP or H. Epic yet, I was hoping for a leader for the FP, but didn't get one. Now that cuzco is no longer a fliprisk, we can start the FP there and hope for a leader.

Other stuff: I think I spotted a sumerian galley ending the turn in the sea, so they probably have Astronomy. We probably should delay getting chemistry a turn or two, to make sure we get it after we make peace with sumer, so we can pick up education as part of the peace treaty, and then trade the chemistry monopoly around for astronomy on the IT. I'd keep our research moving towards cavalry, to clean up our island, and to hit the barbarians that will probably start appearing in the not too distant future.

 

[classical_hero]

GOt it. Will play tomorrow.

 

[CKS]

So, things are looking up.

We probably should delay getting chemistry a turn or two, to make sure we get it after we make peace with sumer, so we can pick up education as part of the peace treaty, and then trade the chemistry monopoly around for astronomy on the IT.

This I don't understand. I see why we want to get education as part of the peace treaty, but why do we want to delay learning chemistry? I understand that it takes fewer beakers to research it when someone else already knows it, so if we know chemistry it makes it easier for someone else to learn it and break our monopoly. However, giving the AI another couple of turns to research it also makes it less likely to be a monopoly tech. Is the discount on research cost so big that it will knock 2 turns off their research time, or am I missing something else?

 

[denyd]

What Sanabas has in mind is to get Education as part of the peace deal witn Sumer and then use Chemistry to get Astronomy, Banking and a bunch of gold.

 

[classical_hero]

Preturn. I move the science rate up so that we willl get it in 5 turns instead of 3.

IBT. We lose a Horseman to a Medieval Infantry.

Turn 1. We take lagash. We lose one horseman and we have three retreat but we have the numbers to take the city. We also get two slaves. I move our first setller into a position to settle.

IBT. We lose a Medieval Infantry to a Longbow.

Turn 2. We kill the offending Long. We have troops ready to take Kish. I will disband this city and resettle with an English city.

IBT. WW takes hold and Lose a number of cities to revolt. As a result I increase the luxury rate. I lost 20 cities We need to start thinking about happiness buildings since the AI does not want to trade with us there luxs.

Turn 3. We raze Kish. I lose a horse killing two pikes and an Enkidu.

IBT. We get all our cities back from disorder.

Turn 4. Now I make a deal with the Sumerians for peace.


The sad news is that this is as far as the AI nations go to with their research on this side of the table. We really should keep Chemistry as a monopoly for as long as possible then. I thought the AI would be further ahead, but no. Instead they went for Chivalry. At least the Sumerians have it. Thank goodness. I managed to kill a pike that was protecting a settler before all this and now we have two more slaves.

IBT.Not much.

Turn 5. The bastards want way too much for Astronomy. So instead of trading for it, I start researching it since they are plying hard ball. I have connect to our only source of Saltpeter.

IBT. Nothing.

Turn 6. We can now get Astronomy from the Incans. We also get 70 gold from them for Chemistry. I forgot to take a screenie. Now we can get Chivalry from the Byzantines.

I am now researching Banking so that I can start building Marketplaces and banks. I am now able to decrease the lux rate and increase the science rate since we have that extra lux.

IBT. Sumeria starts Copernicus.

Turn 7. Not much happened.

IBT. Byz, and Barbs are buildi Cop's

Turn 8. I finally remember to upgrade a galley so we can get in touch with the Barbarian Island, but we need to be wary of the Pirat ship since they are leathal and available righ now.

IBT. Nothing.

Turn 9. Not much.

IBT. We lose Cuzco to disorder.

Turn 10. We can now reach the Barbs, which means they can reach us.


It hink we need to go back and war with the Sumerians so that we can have total control of the north of our continent. I also believe that we should start to ICS our north so that we can get our unit support down and when we go to Communism, which I assume we will, we will have a massive unit support base.

The Save.

 

[denyd]

Though I'm not sure how many cities are in the Barbarian city list, it is notable that they are in the third go round on the list (note Cherokee2). The good news is that the are using Pikes as defenders. At least in a size 5 city.

What's the team thought on research after Banking? Metallurgy->Military Tradition, Economics or Physics->Magnetism? I'm leaning towards the former to help complete the assimilation of the rest of the island, saving a Byzantium city and a Sumerian city for their bonus techs (though that could mean allowing the barbarians to get rifles).

Also is it our intent to trigger our Golden Age with the Man-O-War (MOW) or do it with Smith's?

BTW: How much is left of Sumer? Are we building Knights? How much is our support cost at this point?

 

[Whomp]

Gozpel --
Denyd --
Sanabas --
Classical Hero-- just went
CKS -- Up
Whomp--

Classical a few things of note...

I lose 20 cities

In the future you can stop the civil disorder by going through the big picture. Then you only have one city riot because you can scroll through the remaining cities and convert the citizens to clowns or taxmen. Once you're done you can adjust the lux slider to make them content again.

Why banking? I thought we were going to beeline to MT. Banks will only be useful if we planned on running high cash in the end game. We need mag and MT most. Mag for our GA and MT for cavs.

I don't know how everyone else feels but on commie, I can't see us spending the anarchy turns or research turns to get to commie plus we'd have to prepare the whole empire with courts (multiplier builds and rax in general), mines vs. irrigation before we do this. I'm not sure we have to time to accomplish this and republic should be sufficient as long as we keep our hit ratios high.

As far as luxs go, we need to conquer them not build happy buildings. Who's our next target? It would seem to be the Dutch or Mayans since we have deals working with Sumer and Byz.

 

[denyd]

Probably the Mayans as the Dutch will have quite a few Swiss Mercs by now (unless he has no iron then the Dutch should be target # 1) and we'll want to use Cavalry on the Swiss Mercs. One thing to look at is who has the most luxuries.

BTW: Do we really need to keep Byzantium around?

 

[Whomp]

Probably the Mayans as the Dutch will have quite a few Swiss Mercs by now (unless he has no iron then the Dutch should be target # 1) and we'll want to use Cavalry on the Swiss Mercs. One thing to look at is who has the most luxuries.

BTW: Do we really need to keep Byzantium around?

We have a lux deal with them so unless we break the deal it seems we have no choice for awhile. They have the best chance at keeping the tech pace moving and are scientific. Last, dromons are the only AI unit that could be beneficial keeping around for awhile.

 

[CKS]

I've got the save. I'll have time this evening to spend on it.

 

[CKS]

Sumeria has 3 cities left, 2 to the north and one small island city to the south.

Our current support costs are 10 gpt. We have about 5 horses to upgrade to knights and about the same number of elite horses which I won't upgrade. We have a lot of cash. We are starting to build knights. My intention is to get a nice stack headed off for the Mayans ASAP.

Both the Mayans and the Dutch are tempting targets. I think we should take on the Mayans first, just because they are the nearest. Neither one has iron or horses. The Mayans have gunpowder, but no saltpeter. The Dutch have not yet learned gunpowder. Both have incense, which we need. The other reason for taking out the Mayans first is that Chichen Itza has the Hanging Gardens. This will help our happiness for a while.

Banking will be done in two turns. I'm for heading for cavalry first and then magnetism.

I changed a lot of builds from temples and cathedrals to other things, mostly libraries, markets, and universities, and put a bunch of citizens back to work.

I'm not currently in favor of switching to communism.

 

[denyd]

I agree completly with your research, infrastructure and military choices (which is probably a bad sign).

My only thoughts on a government switch is once we've conquered our island and feel research is no longer necessary, then another government (one that ignores WW is a possibility). I've found that Feudalism is quite good for unit support when using an ICS settlement pattern.

Let's try to blow through the Mayans before they can get SP and the Dutch before they get iron. Then we should probably clean up Sumer and the Inca, leaving just us and Theodora.

My reasons for taking out Byzantium were to reduce the need for local defenses and to render the Great Library (and the Technology Theives) useless. As for the Dromon, once we have MOW on the map Dromons will make nice captures.

 

[CKS]

Well, I managed to get 8 turns along before screwing things up, with a little help from a flip. Here is the save. http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/FuzzyWuzzy_SG010_AD0550_01.SAV

IBT: London knight to knight, Liverpool settler to aquaduct

Turn 1: Fix happiness, send military to hill by Portsmouth, upgrade some horses.
IBT: Watch dromons bomb barbs. Finish banking, start metallurgy. Norwich settler to market.

Turn 2: Fix happiness. Build Canterbury. Move troops.
IBT: Maya start Copernicus' Observatory.

Turn 3: Move troops, fix happiness.

Turn 4: Build New London. Fix happiness. Stack is looking good.
IBT: London knight to knight. Barb ships - a caravel and a pirate ship - show up by London.

Turn 5: Investigate Copan - has incense, 2 spears & a settler, building Cop. Obs. Declare on Maya. MI 4/4 vs Jav. Thrower. E. Horse retreats from 3/4 LB. E horse 2/5 kills LB. 12/13 army kills Copan spear. Vet Knight dies to 1/3 spear. 2/4 knight kills spear, takes Copan (barracks, 2 slaves, 3 resistors, 4 scientists). Vet knight 1/3 kills loose JT. Horse captures 2 slaves.
IBT: Mayan longbows advance. Quell 2 resistors in Copan, it riots. Nottingham library to settler, Isin trebuchet to settler, Manchester harbor to settler, Bristol harbor to courthouse, Hastings university to knight. Barbs go north.

Turn 6: E horse 4/5 kills LB, takes slave. Settler headed S by Smyrna loses tile to cultural expansion. E horse kills LB, 9/13 army kills LB, JT, vet knight kills LB, promotes 4/5, 4/4 knight kills LB.
IBT: LB dies and promotes knight 4/5, LB retreats same knight. York university to Heroic Epic, Portsmouth settler to settler, Copan starves, resistance ends, Warwick marketplace to settler, Newcastle trebuchet to courthouse, Corihuayrachina settler to harbor.

Turn 7: Fix happiness. Build New York. 4/5 horse kills warrior, 3/5 horse kills LB, 4/5 horse kills LB, 1/4 knight retreats from JT, 5/13 army kills JT, LB, 4/5 knight kills JT, Vet knight dies to spear.
IBT: Barbs land a knight up north. Caravel is attacked by barb galley. Learn metallurgy, start military tradition. Richmond aquaduct to library. Incense is connected.

Turn 8: Knight 1/4 kills barb knight. Rest army but foolishly decide to attack Tikal. Lose knight, elite horse; retreat e horse, kill 1 spear.
IBT: Longbow dies to elite knight, 2nd LB kills it. Copan flips, taking some injured units with it, but luckily not the army. As it had the only nearby barracks, I had put some redlined units in it each turn. Nottingham settler to Aquaduct, Coventry courthouse to settler, fix unhappiness due to losing incense. Birmingham harbor to courthouse.

Turn 9: Build New Nottingham, New Hastings. E horse retreats at Copan, discovers they have 2 spears. Move MI to Copan.
IBT: Mayans ask for peace, but won't give anything. LB kills MI. London knight to knight, Machu Picchu knight to courthouse, Warwick settler to knight, Exeter settler to aquaduct. Barbarian Stronghold builds Cop. Obs.

Turn 10: 4/4 MI kills Copan spear, 2 MI die to 2/4 spear, 3/3 spear, 4/4 MI kills LB,army 7/14 kills 3/3 spear. Dutch now have gunpowder, and apparently saltpeter.

We need to retake Copan (for the lux) and regroup. I didn't get enough knights built to sustain an invasion, and the long trek from our core to our borders doesn't help. We currently have no troop support costs, which (given our worker army) should tell you how poor our military situation is. We are, however, still strong vs. the Mayans. We are 3 turns from Military Tradition, though, and cavalry should help.

There is a Mayan galley going up the coast, so watch for a landing. I built a couple of Trebuchets in hopes of driving off barb ships, but they weren't anywhere useful when the ships came in close.