SGOTM 10 - Maple Sporks

[Norvin_Green]

I don't mind aggressively pillaging Gandhi either. I do realize we are going to lose tiles near St. Pete but I think fortunately the better tiles are to the east of the city anyway.
Sirloin, seeing as you are up why don't you give us general plan for a 10 turn set.

 

[Whosit]

I generally like the plan. Are knights available to us? We should get horses and mix in a few with our maces so we have a counter to his troops (on the defensive). I'm pretty sure we can pillage him to death if we move quickly and deliberately.

 

[sturick]

Well all we should need to handle Gandhi is maces and a pike for each stack if he builds any jumbos.
If he doesn't build jumbos then they won't be necessary as long as we pillage the ivory camp first.

Really we only need to worry about the units he produces before we cut him off from iron.
Once we do that the best he can make are longbows.

We don't really need knights until he gets Gunpowder so I wouldn't be in a rush to settle the horse site. As mentioned earlier maces are only a slight underdog to muskets.
Plus, I doubt Gandhi is teching in that direction anyways...but you never know.

 

[Whosit]

I just figured a Knight or two in the stack would be a decent counter against maces. Yeah, our own maces have a shot at winning the fight, but Knights have more power than a mace and Gandhi's maces wouldn't get the 50% bonus against them. I just foresee us losing some troops to hit-and-runs and us being frustrated about it.

 

[sturick]

Yes thats true I suppose.
Again it will depend on how many of them Gandhi builds before we DOW.

Perhaps we should keep our borders open until the DOW so we have an idea of his troop status.

If he has a few maces then it would make sense that we bring along some knights.
Also xbows would counter our maces too.

Our plan for the next set should be the same whatever way we choose so lets see what kind of troop buildup Gandhi can muster.

 

[nocho]

I generally like the pillaging plan as well. But first we should get those settlers out. Meanwhile St Pete can solely focus on troops. First some LBs though. The pillaging stack probably should be someting mixed, with the main focus on maces. But indeed a pike or a crossbow won't hurt. Before we have such a stack (and some boat) we'll be at least 2 sets further down the road, I think. And in that time Gandhi will likely continue to settle...

 

[Sirloin]

Sounds like we're pretty settled on a general plan for the next set. I'll post some details of what I plan to do tonight and I can play the set tomorrow.

 

[Sirloin]

Plan is Moscow -> next Build Settler with a chop to settle Gold site
St Pete -> next Build mace and continue to build maces/longbows
Explorer will fogbust.

We'll be ramping up for a harassment war with gandhi

 

[Whosit]

Sounds good.

Y'know, I checked the scoreboard yesterday, and most of the teams still haven't played a set. I wonder what's going on . . . .

Oh, anyway, wanted to throw something else out: Our goal is to get nukes as quickly as possible. Harassing Gandhi will surely be helpful, but we should also make sure that every step along the way aids us in reaching the necessary technologies as quickly as possible. Does St. Pete have a Library? I can't remember and can't check the save just yet. I mean, I suppose there's only so much we can do if we want to keep expanding. I just thought it could be helpful to reiterate our ultimate goal.

 

[nocho]

Okay with the plan!

I'm also curious about why so few teams have played yet... I guess they are just not as brave as us to get things started!

 

[Sirloin]

Although fast nukes should be our major long term goal, with an appropriate focus on maximizing research, its a ways off, and I think securing land should be our primary short-term focus. Expansion by India or appearance of barb cities will severely hamper our number of potential cities, and as always, more cities = more power. If we can wing-clip India and then fogbust the rest of our continent, we'll be in great shape for the late game. Both of these tasks require units immediately; barb cities start popping up really fast on these late-era starts.

 

[sturick]

The landgrab is the best way to get us to nukes the fastest IMHO.
The more cities we have the more beakers that we can produce.

Our best short term goal research wise is to acquire Lib first. Not sure what are chances are of grabbing it right now but I think we still have a good shot at it.

I think I will try to set up a spawnbusting map later on.
To maximize the area we can cover with a minimum of units needed.
Am I correct in assuming that barbs cannot spawn a unit or city within two tiles of a cultural border and/or a unit?

 

[nocho]

Okay, finally had my first actual look at a save today, as I'm back at the home comp . All well, of course, but I was wondering a bit about the engineers hired in both cities. Obviously both are now generating engineering points and looking at the wonders available there's nothing particularly appealing available (and I wonder how the hell Gandhi got Sistine that quickly, he can't have generated a GE so quickly, or could he?).

My point is that I think a GS may be much more useful than a GE. An early academy for +50% in Moscow, our bureau capital, after all, would be great. Or alternatively, it could be used to bulb something. Education for instance, to give a head start towards liberalism, while being able to build universities. Problem is that I have no idea how many beakers a bulb is at this point with a reneaissance start. In a normal game a typical education bulb is roughly around 1700 beakers, but it depends on population and god knows what. I may test that out for a renaissance start. I'd hate to throw away beakers should we generate a GS and it would "overbulb" if we continue researching edu.

In either case, I think it could be worth it to assign Moscow's free mercantilism specialist to be a scientist. I'd leave StPete on an engineer, it can use the hammer boost for troops production.

Oh, and I don't mean to stir up something that may have had its consensus already, but looking at the save, a scientist in Moscow just struck me as better now that we have a library there . Opinions?

EDIT: I just tested it out, a GS still bulbs around 1540 beakers on a renaissance start, with both my cities at size 7. So could be well worth to go for, we might even want to hire two scientists in Moscow to speed up the process (and increase the odds for a scientist).
Although still first and foremost is the landgrab of course .

 

[Sirloin]

Played 10t; typing up a report.

Here is our save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Maple_Sporks_SG010_AD1440_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Sirloin]

Turn 21 I switch Moscow's spec to a sci. Tiles and builds look fine.

Turn 22 Moscow finishes a workboat, set to Settler and start a chop. The WB is used for the Crab tile rather than scouting.

Turn 23 GArtist born in a farway land

Turn 24 Report of the most advanced civilizations.

Spoiler Advanced Civ List :

Turn 25 zzz

Turn 26 Chop is finished; settler will be ready in 5t. I can run a 2nd scientist in Moscow without delaying the settler, so I do so. That will give us our Great Person in 11t.

Turn 27 Meet Roosevelt from a galley that has come from the Northeast. He has nothing available to trade, doesn't have a 3rd city yet, lower score than us, and he is already WHEEOH. He is pleased with Gandhi, but I don't open borders yet, but we probably should.

Spoiler Roosevelt :

Turn 28,29,30 not much to report. Our settler is almost complete, so I get a worker to get a road ready so we can move the settler into position on the turn its ready. A second worker is in position to chop a forest immediately for the new site.

Turn 31 Settler is out. I move him to the gold site. I assume this is where we want to settle him, but he can't set down until next turn so we could make to make an adjustment if needed.

I've set the capital build to maceman, but nothing is invested and I'm thinking we should do a galley next as Whosit suggested. I also set Moscow to run 3 specialists so we can get our Person as soon as possible. There's a lot of flexibility in Moscow's tiles so feel free to discuss adjustments or optimizations.

At St. Pete's I've been farming the floodplains so we can get some good growth. As noted, we're going to have culture problems here. I'm not sure if we should try and crank some culture buildings as a buttress or just accept it and build military. We're losing 2% to India each turn, so we'll lose some elephant tiles in about 10t.

Next player should probably OB with Roose.

 

[nocho]

Good job!

I'd definitely settle in place. I understand it will be size 2, or is that just the first two cities? We should get some culture there, mainly for the clams to come in reach. Maybe a library first then? Always good once the gold mines are online.

Speaking of gold, I guess the worker will mine that next, so good idea to let Moscow build a mace and some boat while growing to size 8 as the happy cap obviously increases. Then I'd like a settler again quicly afterwards. I think it should settle in the south, since when Moscow's borders pop, the Moai site is nearly secured.

Then we should discuss what to do with the great person that will be born in 4 turns. If a scientist, with our current progress it will bulb education probably nearly completely so that fits in nicely. Although an academy is still an option.
If a GE, maybe we can build a wonder after all in St Pete, partly to combat the culture problem. I think either Notre Dame for the happy and the 10 culture, or the Sh Paya at 8 culture and the possibility to go free religion. Although we may get liberalism soon anyway, mmm. Or maybe even Versailles, for denial and a future palace move? Not sure how many hammers we get from a GE by the way. Notre Dame is probably the best wonder though.
Alternatively I think a GE will bulb about 1000 beakers of gunpowder (at least it did in the test I did yesterday).

By the way we could trade silk for ivory with gandhi. Well, I didn't try as I understand that's against the rules. Gandhi will have an ivory soon online anyway, so we could profit from that until he cancels the deal. So maybe not worth it afer all...

And both Gandhi and Roosy have world maps available. Again, don't know the price as I dare not try, but I guess our own map should suffice.

 

[nocho]

And I nearly forget, how does stealing Gandhi's 3 (THREE) workers sound, right now?

 

[sturick]

Good turns Sirloin!
The only thing I might have done differently is that I would have chopped the forest south of the rice. We will want to farm that tile for irrigation to the rice and corn tiles eventually so chopping that forest would get us closer to that.

Just a minor thing though.

I just don't see how we can pass up the opportunity to steal Gandhis entire (probably) workforce.
We won't have to build any workers for quite a long time.
It is essentially 243 hammers that we get for free!
We can micro the mace in Pete to finish in two turns while still growing in 2 turns.

I really hope we get the engineer.
Notre Dame would solve a couple of things for us.
It would help immensely in the culture fight with Gandhi allowing us to focus on units there.
It would also allow Moscow to grow to size nine. We are capped at size 7 right now.

A scientist would be fine too but not as helpful as an engineer.

Spawnbusting map coming up tomorrow.

EDIT:In my test games I noticed that usually the map trades were straight up.
I would definitely trade with Rosy as his map is undoubtedly larger than ours.

 

[nocho]

I'm glad you agree on taking Gandhi on now and his workforce with it, sturick. It's sooner than expected, but a better opportunity won't present itself, as we actually get immediate benefit.

I have one worry though and that is that Gandhi would be so smart as to move a unit directly next to St Petersburg, 1S or 2S of where his workers are. Remember we all have engineering so units move 3 tiles over roads so it could reach there from Delhi. In that case we won't be able to defend St Pete as the LB is then in enemy territory and our other units are too far away. Even if we configure the mace to come in 2 turns, I think (though not sure) that on the next interturn Gandhi would attack before we produce the mace. Also note that Gandhi doesn't have horses and therefore no 2-move military unit, as such a unit would be able to take St Pete immediately. Explorers can't take enemy cities, I hope.

However, we have the option to revolt to slavery right now as well. This interturn we swallow the 1 turn of anarchy and next turn we are already out of revolt and we can whip the mace in St Pete if Gandhi moves a unit right next to it. I'm quite sure (although if someone can confirm, please do!) that a whipped unit IS produced before Gandhi would attack next turn.

Actually, with the 3 added workers we don't need serfdom that much anymore anyway. Slavery will be quite useful for whipping things in our new cities or even possibly whipping settlers if we want to quickly settle the land around us. And whipping emergency military of course.

If we do attack the LB should be promoted before taking the workers, combat I reckon.

What do you think?

edit: on another note, I just noticed Bombay is islamic, which is neither our, Gandhi's or Roosey's religion. So probably Gandhi knows someone else as well...
edit2: that someone else is probably Mao. If you go to F4-Glance under the -2 of Gandhi's relation with Roosey it says "worst enemy of Mao Zedong". Would this be a BUFFY bug, as we don't know Mao yet?

 

[Norvin_Green]

Spoiler :

Excuse me for trying to appear that I have editing skills. It would seem that the procurement of a larger workforce is a great idea. Odds are his workers are there to connect the ivory which should take at least 6 worker turns so 2 game turns and hopefully road it as well which gives us 1 extra game turn. If we MM and get the mace in two he can snag them plus it will take Gandhi at least 3 turns to reach our territory. In my screenshot the purple rectangle has no roads. The purple dots are if he takes roads out of Delhi and the white is if he heads directly towards us. Either way its 3 turns. I'm for it.

I think I've seen that "worst enemy" thing happen in BUG long before Buffy arrived.