Norvin_Green
Emperor
In a word, um, no. This is why I like SG's. There is always someone who knows something new.
It pretty much makes the gold site next a no-brainer.
SGOTM 10 - Maple Sporks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
In a word, um, no. This is why I like SG's. There is always someone who knows something new.
It pretty much makes the gold site next a no-brainer.
I was leaning towards Goldcity first before Sirloin pointed out the unavailabilty of Moai.
The commerce from gold will indeed pay itself off.
I still think I like Moai after that just due to the shear food it can produce.
But we have plenty of time before that happens.
We should send our explorer up there to fogbust it though.
As far as an aggressive DOW goes.
If the circumstances are right (no horse or iron) we can DOW and not only pillage but also attack cities down to one unit of garrison.
The rules allow us to attack cities...we just can't take them right?
Basically, we will get ourselves some veteran maces that can be used later on in our war efforts.
Plus, it will force Gandhi to produce military rather than settlers.
If we pull it off we could limit Gandhi to two or three cities on our island.
So I would agree with using the next workboat to scout out Gandhi.
Or alternatively, we could open borders with Gandhi, use our explorer to check him out, and then close borders (either with a dow or the oldfashioned way).
The commerce from gold will indeed pay itself off.
I still think I like Moai after that just due to the shear food it can produce.
But we have plenty of time before that happens.
We should send our explorer up there to fogbust it though.
As far as an aggressive DOW goes.
If the circumstances are right (no horse or iron) we can DOW and not only pillage but also attack cities down to one unit of garrison.
The rules allow us to attack cities...we just can't take them right?
Basically, we will get ourselves some veteran maces that can be used later on in our war efforts.
Plus, it will force Gandhi to produce military rather than settlers.
If we pull it off we could limit Gandhi to two or three cities on our island.
So I would agree with using the next workboat to scout out Gandhi.
Or alternatively, we could open borders with Gandhi, use our explorer to check him out, and then close borders (either with a dow or the oldfashioned way).
Good to see you back around Sirloin, especially for pointing out the rather embarrassing fact that we can't build moai... 
If we want a boat to scout out Gandhi I'd rather build a caravel than a workboat. First, for a WB to enter we need OB if I'm not mistaken, so in that case we might as well scout him out with our explorer. Second, it's faster than a WB and third, we could use it to further get to meet the rest of the world and maybe even pick up circum-navigation, supposing that is a feature still available on a renaissance start.
If we want a boat to scout out Gandhi I'd rather build a caravel than a workboat. First, for a WB to enter we need OB if I'm not mistaken, so in that case we might as well scout him out with our explorer. Second, it's faster than a WB and third, we could use it to further get to meet the rest of the world and maybe even pick up circum-navigation, supposing that is a feature still available on a renaissance start.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
We can still get circumnavigation if we're quick about it. I guess Non-Moai can be an alternate GP farm? If nothing else, it could run engineers and priests for some hammers, or merchants for gold, etc., etc. But, yeah, with no Moai, not a high priority.
Our "Moai" city will still be a decent place to GP as Whosit noted.
It will also be useful in building a navy.
Something that we will need to conquer the other civs.
Ditto nochos thoughts on building a caravel...gives our explorer something to do too!
It will also be useful in building a navy.
Something that we will need to conquer the other civs.
Ditto nochos thoughts on building a caravel...gives our explorer something to do too!
Norvin_Green
Emperor
I agree. I think Whosit is still recovering from his pc virus 
Norvin_Green
Emperor
Ok, I'm going to suggest we skip Whosit for the time being. Usually he's pretty active on here so I'm feeling his pc woes have kaboshed him again. So Sirloin, why don't you post a plan summary for the team to discuss over the next 24 hours or so.
Whosit
Entropic Knight
My computer is fine. I just haven't played yet because I wanted an "OK" from the team. I didn't want to play the set before we had truly and surely completed pre-set discussions.I wasn't silent that long, was I? Also, I was busy this morning.
Anyway, let me review my plan:
Build infrastructure in Moscow, with a preference towards anything that will increase Beaker output (just a library at this point) until it reaches happy cap, at which point I will begin on a Settler (destined for Gold Spot, but I doubt I'll get that far). I may do a Caravel after the Library to scope out India and explore the world.
St. Pete will most likely do a Barracks and churn out . . . what, Longbows? Probably a library, too, for beakers/culture. Workers will try to gear the city for max hammers, but not sure the exact improvements I'll build just yet.
19 hours, we started missing you! You have my ok whatever you do as long as it is consciously and in good faith, although posting a formal plan will always be appreciated...
Hey, you edited while I wrote... Ok again with your plan, though I wouldn't mind hooking up the last sea food in moscow as well (I was under the impression that's not the case yet).
You have my ok whatever you do as long as it is consciously and in good faith, although posting a formal plan will always be appreciated... Hey, you edited while I wrote... Ok again with your plan, though I wouldn't mind hooking up the last sea food in moscow as well (I was under the impression that's not the case yet).
We can have Petes worker connect to the capitol to gain access to iron.
So I would farm flood and camp an ivory rather than pasteuring the cow.
I'd rather spam maces than longbows. But we will need at least one longbow for goldcity since it will be on a hill. But it really will depend on whether or not Gandhi has access to metals/horses.
If he does then just pump out the bows. If he doesn't then we should get the maces ready for pillage/harassment duties.
I don't see the harm in opening borders with India and using our explorer...it would be cheaper than building a caravel (we do want one eventually). Besides we would need to open borders with India that way too.
When finished exploring India the explorer should go to fogbust for Moai city...I don't want to lose it to barbs...in fact we should really focus quite a bit on fogbusting. As I assume that we will be unable to take barb cities without nukes either. I think I will look that one up.
EDIT: Yup barb cities must be nuked first too. So fogbusting will be of prime importance!
So I would farm flood and camp an ivory rather than pasteuring the cow.
I'd rather spam maces than longbows. But we will need at least one longbow for goldcity since it will be on a hill. But it really will depend on whether or not Gandhi has access to metals/horses.
If he does then just pump out the bows. If he doesn't then we should get the maces ready for pillage/harassment duties.
I don't see the harm in opening borders with India and using our explorer...it would be cheaper than building a caravel (we do want one eventually). Besides we would need to open borders with India that way too.
When finished exploring India the explorer should go to fogbust for Moai city...I don't want to lose it to barbs...in fact we should really focus quite a bit on fogbusting. As I assume that we will be unable to take barb cities without nukes either. I think I will look that one up.
EDIT: Yup barb cities must be nuked first too. So fogbusting will be of prime importance!
Whosit
Entropic Knight
The Maple Sporks in Russia: The Calm Before . . . More Calm
Turn 11, 1340 AD
Moscow will finish a work boat and grow next turn while St. Petersburg will finish its worker next turn.
We've been talking about fogbusting for our Moai site, but that's completely unnecessary. Our cultural borders have expanded far enough to keep barbs from popping up there, and one of Gandhi's explorers is currently stuck there, anyway, so it's clear. I'll work on getting troops to bust for other locations.
-End Turn-
Turn 12, 1345 AD
Moscow: Work boat < Library (9 turns); it's going to grow pretty fast, though.
St. Petersburg: Worker < Barracks (4 turns); Experienced troops!
The new worker will begin to farm one of the flood plains. Worker pair comes down to start building an ivory camp.
I'll have our explorer and other Longbow start on fogbust duties.
-End Turn-
Turn 13, 1350 AD
Gandhi adopts Pacifism, looks like he's trying to boost his Philosophical trait.
Changed mind, remembering we want explorer to scout Gandhi. Open Borders now so that they can be closed all that much sooner.
Turn 14, 1355 AD
Umm . . .
-End Turn-
Turn 15, 1360 AD
Moscow grows and I juggle tiles to get the Library faster. Happy cap increases with the completion of the ivory camp.
Someone scores a Great Engineer. That someone was Gandhi.
-End Turn-
Turn 16, 1365 AD
St. Petersburg: Barracks < Longbowman (6 turns);iron not connected to the city just yet. Well, it is now, but I think we want at least one for the city.
-End Turn-
Turn 17, 1370 AD
Check out more of Indian territory.
Farm done, switch tiles in St. Pete.
-End Turn-
Turn 18, 1375 AD
The farmers go to start on the cows, since the hammers will be good.
Camp 2 finished.
-End Turn-
Turn 19, 1380 AD
Start an ivory camp for Moscow since it's about as good as the grassland hill there.
Pasture cows.
Gandhi has iron right next to his second city, so keeping him away from metals is probably not going to happen. Probably why he went north to settle, after all.
Oh, and Gandhi took the Sistine Chapel, didn't notice the alert earlier. Pete's is gonna feel some serious cultural pressure soon, I think.
-End Turn-
Turn 20, 1385 AD
Moscow: Library < Work Boat (2 turns); Grows to hap-cap in 2 turns as well, so this'll help with the Settler to come (work crabs).
Turn slider down to 80% so we don't go broke.
-End Turn-
Turn 21, 1390 AD
Ending here, 10-turn set done. Work boat will finish in Moscow next turn and it will grow to size 7. Recommend workers to mine the grassland hill for a few extra hammers towards the Settler.
We can close borders with Gandhi in a few turns. After St. Petersburg finishs its self-defense longbow, I would recommend spitting out a few really cheap units, like archers, just to fogbust as fast as possible. Moscow should probably build a Galley or something so we can send a soldier to fogbust on the southern island.
On overview:
And let's see if I do the save thing correctly:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Maple_Sporks_SG010_AD1390_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Edit: By the way, starting Monday I have classes and a day job, so you'll be seeing a bit less of me. Shouldn't affect my overall ability to comment on and play the game, though.
Turn 11, 1340 AD
Moscow will finish a work boat and grow next turn while St. Petersburg will finish its worker next turn.
We've been talking about fogbusting for our Moai site, but that's completely unnecessary. Our cultural borders have expanded far enough to keep barbs from popping up there, and one of Gandhi's explorers is currently stuck there, anyway, so it's clear. I'll work on getting troops to bust for other locations.
-End Turn-
Turn 12, 1345 AD
Moscow: Work boat < Library (9 turns); it's going to grow pretty fast, though.
St. Petersburg: Worker < Barracks (4 turns); Experienced troops!
The new worker will begin to farm one of the flood plains. Worker pair comes down to start building an ivory camp.
I'll have our explorer and other Longbow start on fogbust duties.
-End Turn-
Turn 13, 1350 AD
Gandhi adopts Pacifism, looks like he's trying to boost his Philosophical trait.
Changed mind, remembering we want explorer to scout Gandhi. Open Borders now so that they can be closed all that much sooner.
Turn 14, 1355 AD
Umm . . .
-End Turn-
Turn 15, 1360 AD
Moscow grows and I juggle tiles to get the Library faster. Happy cap increases with the completion of the ivory camp.
Someone scores a Great Engineer. That someone was Gandhi.
-End Turn-
Turn 16, 1365 AD
St. Petersburg: Barracks < Longbowman (6 turns);
-End Turn-
Turn 17, 1370 AD
Check out more of Indian territory.
Farm done, switch tiles in St. Pete.
-End Turn-
Turn 18, 1375 AD
The farmers go to start on the cows, since the hammers will be good.
Camp 2 finished.
-End Turn-
Turn 19, 1380 AD
Start an ivory camp for Moscow since it's about as good as the grassland hill there.
Pasture cows.
Gandhi has iron right next to his second city, so keeping him away from metals is probably not going to happen. Probably why he went north to settle, after all.
Oh, and Gandhi took the Sistine Chapel, didn't notice the alert earlier. Pete's is gonna feel some serious cultural pressure soon, I think.
-End Turn-
Turn 20, 1385 AD
Moscow: Library < Work Boat (2 turns); Grows to hap-cap in 2 turns as well, so this'll help with the Settler to come (work crabs).
Turn slider down to 80% so we don't go broke.
-End Turn-
Turn 21, 1390 AD
Ending here, 10-turn set done. Work boat will finish in Moscow next turn and it will grow to size 7. Recommend workers to mine the grassland hill for a few extra hammers towards the Settler.
We can close borders with Gandhi in a few turns. After St. Petersburg finishs its self-defense longbow, I would recommend spitting out a few really cheap units, like archers, just to fogbust as fast as possible. Moscow should probably build a Galley or something so we can send a soldier to fogbust on the southern island.
On overview:
Spoiler :
And let's see if I do the save thing correctly:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Maple_Sporks_SG010_AD1390_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Edit: By the way, starting Monday I have classes and a day job, so you'll be seeing a bit less of me. Shouldn't affect my overall ability to comment on and play the game, though.
Agreed...the only bad things I can find about your set was the appearance of the Sistine and iron.
Sistine is gonna be a real problem for us in Pete.
Delhi has the Sistine and is a holy city for +15 culture plus 2 for being a capital and 2 more for a lib plus 2 for the free merc spec. Not to mention any future specs that he runs or hindu buildings he makes.
So by my counts Delhi has at least 19-21 culture per turn. That blows!
Pete is gonna lose some tiles...we better get used to that.
Moscow can definitely start on a settler next.
But do we want to send the workboat out to meet our purple friend first?
Or do we just want to have him work the crabs for extra settler food?
We are also working a 1
2 
tile in Moscow.
Would we rather make that a science specialist?
Or should we wait until after the settler is made?
Worker units still have moves...I agree with Whosit that they can build the mine on their way to farming the rice and corn. Our gold city can use those tiles to grow into those gold mines.
Sistine is gonna be a real problem for us in Pete.
Delhi has the Sistine and is a holy city for +15 culture plus 2 for being a capital and 2 more for a lib plus 2 for the free merc spec. Not to mention any future specs that he runs or hindu buildings he makes.
So by my counts Delhi has at least 19-21 culture per turn. That blows!
Pete is gonna lose some tiles...we better get used to that.
Moscow can definitely start on a settler next.
But do we want to send the workboat out to meet our purple friend first?
Or do we just want to have him work the crabs for extra settler food?
We are also working a 1
2 tile in Moscow.Would we rather make that a science specialist?
Or should we wait until after the settler is made?
Worker units still have moves...I agree with Whosit that they can build the mine on their way to farming the rice and corn. Our gold city can use those tiles to grow into those gold mines.
I don't think there's any compelling reason to meet the purple guy soon other than to sattisfy our curiosity. At this stage we can't trade techs anyhow. So I'd get the crabs, extra settler food is most important at this stage. And the commerce is good too. Unless the happy cap grows I could be tempted to just build 3 settlers in a row in Moscow... Remember that the landgrab is the most important thing. 3rd city gold as we discussed and 4th maybe even somewhere south of StPete, just to grab some more space. 5th could go Moai-sans-Moai... As said before, Gandhi won't go there soon.
The gold site will of course increase the happy cap, so if we want to grow Moscow further, I'd squeeze in a galley (for transporting a unit to the south-island and later a settler) and a caravel in the mean time.
The gold site will of course increase the happy cap, so if we want to grow Moscow further, I'd squeeze in a galley (for transporting a unit to the south-island and later a settler) and a caravel in the mean time.
Okay...little bump for discussion.
I like putting Moscow on settler duties so using the workboat to get the crabs is all good.
2 extra "hammers" is worth it.
What do we feel about running one or two scientist specs there too?
I personally think we should run 2 sci specs until the mine is finished then trade a sci spec for a miner.
Speeding up our great person is a good thing since either one benefits us.
An engineer can build a wonder for us...I hope for Notre Dame myself.
A scientist would bulb part of Education I believe...gets us closer to Lib.
On a side note...it pains me not to be able to play around with the save.
I constantly have to remind myself!
I think Pete should finish its longbow then send it out for fogbusting gold city.
Then make another longbow for its own garrison.
I know we need culture in here but with the arrival of Sistine...it is gonna be a losing battle.
But fogbusting still takes precedence.
Don't forget that we should cancel our OB with Gandhi too.
I like putting Moscow on settler duties so using the workboat to get the crabs is all good.
2 extra "hammers" is worth it.
What do we feel about running one or two scientist specs there too?
I personally think we should run 2 sci specs until the mine is finished then trade a sci spec for a miner.
Speeding up our great person is a good thing since either one benefits us.
An engineer can build a wonder for us...I hope for Notre Dame myself.
A scientist would bulb part of Education I believe...gets us closer to Lib.
On a side note...it pains me not to be able to play around with the save.
I constantly have to remind myself!
I think Pete should finish its longbow then send it out for fogbusting gold city.
Then make another longbow for its own garrison.
I know we need culture in here but with the arrival of Sistine...it is gonna be a losing battle.
But fogbusting still takes precedence.
Don't forget that we should cancel our OB with Gandhi too.
Sirloin
Rare
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2006
- Messages
- 99
Despite India's Iron, does anyone else think we could still win a fight against gandhi? I feel that if we could secure all of the land on our continent pre-nukes, that would be a huge advantage, and might be worth taking risks to do so. I realize that we're playing aggressive AI which means India will be building more units than it usually does (zero), but still:
We can move troops from a galley to the Iron square on the same turn we dow. Pillage the next turn.
If we have 6 or so maces I think we can do some serious damage and possibly cripple him for the rest of the game. Remember that even if he has some maces, he will probably garrison them if we attack rather than roaming the countryside taking out our pillagers.
I'm kind of a risk-taker, so maybe this is too aggressive, but I think against some of these quality teams we're playing its worth it to take some chances.
We can move troops from a galley to the Iron square on the same turn we dow. Pillage the next turn.
If we have 6 or so maces I think we can do some serious damage and possibly cripple him for the rest of the game. Remember that even if he has some maces, he will probably garrison them if we attack rather than roaming the countryside taking out our pillagers.
I'm kind of a risk-taker, so maybe this is too aggressive, but I think against some of these quality teams we're playing its worth it to take some chances.
I am of a similar mind as you are Sirloin.
Gandhi having the Sistine really worries me. I don't like the prospect of sharing a small island with a cultural AI...I don't care if he is "Aggressive" or not.
Heres my best case scenario.
We pillage and harass Gandhi keeping him at two or three cities.
We meet our friend to the north (share maps) and bribe him to declare on Gandhi.
Our friend takes out Gandhi thereby removing the cultural pressures we will be experiencing.
I think if we can keep Gandhis power rating low enough then it just might work.
Wishful thinking but I dream big!
So Sirloin, when would you suggest we begin this buildup of arms?
I would say that Pete can crank out two more longbows and then pump non-stop maces.
Moscow can build two settlers for gold city and Moai city (this can become the new settler/worker pump) and then build a galley to ship a unit to fogbust the iron/silver island. This boat will then return to be the iron pillage boat.
Tell me what you think?
I agree that taking chances is worth a shot here but I will succumb to a reasonable argument for the safe route too!
Gold city can focus on growing and keeping our commerce in check.
Gandhi having the Sistine really worries me. I don't like the prospect of sharing a small island with a cultural AI...I don't care if he is "Aggressive" or not.
Heres my best case scenario.
We pillage and harass Gandhi keeping him at two or three cities.
We meet our friend to the north (share maps) and bribe him to declare on Gandhi.
Our friend takes out Gandhi thereby removing the cultural pressures we will be experiencing.
I think if we can keep Gandhis power rating low enough then it just might work.
Wishful thinking but I dream big!
So Sirloin, when would you suggest we begin this buildup of arms?
I would say that Pete can crank out two more longbows and then pump non-stop maces.
Moscow can build two settlers for gold city and Moai city (this can become the new settler/worker pump) and then build a galley to ship a unit to fogbust the iron/silver island. This boat will then return to be the iron pillage boat.
Tell me what you think?
I agree that taking chances is worth a shot here but I will succumb to a reasonable argument for the safe route too!
Gold city can focus on growing and keeping our commerce in check.
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