SGOTM 10 - Team CFR
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I am afraid that won't be very easy if we start on one of the small continents (which is most likely). But of course if we do have neighbours we should try to prevent them from settling.
We can build nationcal wonders without limitations.Lexad said:
akots
Poet
It indeed seems that land grabbing might be a priority on this map so that we can get 5 cities for Oxford (small map makes Oxford+ Bureaucracy very powerful) and enough workers very early.
I'm not sure about biology, I have some Modern Era experience with PitBoss games against AI and humans with AI replacing losing players at the later stages but these games are on Noble difficulty and on huge maps with normal speed. If there are many plain tiles, Biology is a must-have for population to grow unless there is a lot of seafood and grassland to farm. Not sure about cottages, they might be not needed if there is early Constitution to run Representation and substantial happiness resources. So, IMO, it might be worth considering Liberalism-Constitution path for the beginning. But again, it all depends on actual map.
Caste system might be useless early in the game and Slavery is probably best choice.
Also, IMO, necessity of highly promoted troops will depend on actual map. If most of the AI cities are coastal, and on Epic speed, there should be no need for Commando promotion.
Don't know about Mercantilism, never used it, it is always either State Property or Free Market for me. But on Epic speed, Great people are very powerful tool to lightbulb techs.
It is hard to tell whether we would need factories with coal plants. Usually, simple slavery + forge combination might be good enough.
I'm not sure about biology, I have some Modern Era experience with PitBoss games against AI and humans with AI replacing losing players at the later stages but these games are on Noble difficulty and on huge maps with normal speed. If there are many plain tiles, Biology is a must-have for population to grow unless there is a lot of seafood and grassland to farm. Not sure about cottages, they might be not needed if there is early Constitution to run Representation and substantial happiness resources. So, IMO, it might be worth considering Liberalism-Constitution path for the beginning. But again, it all depends on actual map.
Caste system might be useless early in the game and Slavery is probably best choice.
Also, IMO, necessity of highly promoted troops will depend on actual map. If most of the AI cities are coastal, and on Epic speed, there should be no need for Commando promotion.
Don't know about Mercantilism, never used it, it is always either State Property or Free Market for me. But on Epic speed, Great people are very powerful tool to lightbulb techs.
It is hard to tell whether we would need factories with coal plants. Usually, simple slavery + forge combination might be good enough.
Another piece of mind for the starting sequence: merc+paci = free engineer = fast GE we can use for Oxford or Taj. Or, if we switch to castes on the way, we cen speed it up with scientists.
Should we even target Taj? If we lose it, it'd be rather fast, and effect would be low, but, unless built by GE, and especially without Marble, the costs of building will be heavy and the effect without Mausoleum - low.
The issue of happiness: the difficulty level is rather high, so far we see 2 happiness resources = 3
with forge. Thus to supersize our cities HRule might be better than Repr - then no need to research Constitution ourselves. Otherwise no real need for Bio and quite a limitation on specialist economy - more reliance on cottages or direct gold/bulb production with hammers
Also, do not forget tactical nukes also count as nuking the city - but we need a launching site close by. So the costs of nuking are expected to be lower than 6 pop per nuke.
Edit: can submarines carry tactical nukes?
Should we even target Taj? If we lose it, it'd be rather fast, and effect would be low, but, unless built by GE, and especially without Marble, the costs of building will be heavy and the effect without Mausoleum - low.
The issue of happiness: the difficulty level is rather high, so far we see 2 happiness resources = 3
with forge. Thus to supersize our cities HRule might be better than Repr - then no need to research Constitution ourselves. Otherwise no real need for Bio and quite a limitation on specialist economy - more reliance on cottages or direct gold/bulb production with hammersAlso, do not forget tactical nukes also count as nuking the city - but we need a launching site close by. So the costs of nuking are expected to be lower than 6 pop per nuke.
Edit: can submarines carry tactical nukes?
I think that before playing a test game we cannot say anything about how difficult winning the races for liberalism, economics and Tadj will be.
Mercantilism is the only economic civic available to us. Usually we have a relatively high research rate when we reach banking, and we can then wait for free market or even state property; also we usualy have big cities for better trade routes at that point. But here it may take a while for us to reach economics, and then we might not have good trade routes, so mercantilism looks much better then usual. State property would be great in the final part of the game, but I am not sure we'll ever reach communism.
The 6 pop calculation is for a tactical nuke. ICBM will require 12 pop. But I assume we'll mostly use tactical nukes, with ICBMs used only when there is no way to get a nearby city or a fort.
Mercantilism is the only economic civic available to us. Usually we have a relatively high research rate when we reach banking, and we can then wait for free market or even state property; also we usualy have big cities for better trade routes at that point. But here it may take a while for us to reach economics, and then we might not have good trade routes, so mercantilism looks much better then usual. State property would be great in the final part of the game, but I am not sure we'll ever reach communism.
The 6 pop calculation is for a tactical nuke. ICBM will require 12 pop. But I assume we'll mostly use tactical nukes, with ICBMs used only when there is no way to get a nearby city or a fort.
I don't think happiness can really be a huge problem. We know calendar, HR & other luxury techs, so we should be able to find more luxuries, unless Gyathar deliberately removed them from the map. We'll also have happiness from religion. If that is not enough, SE allows using the culture slider without loosing too much gold.Lexad said:
Biology is so good, I don't understand how you can even consider skipping it.
National Park, growth boom, increased number of specialists per city during research phase, power whipping of nukes in the conquest phase. IMO cotatges/HR combo for me is last resort option to use when you don't have luxuries to grow, cannot capture Pyramids (or build them with stone), don't have the techs for advanced improvements, etc.
Assembly line and factories/coal plants may indeed be skipped. I thought at first that industrious gives double speed factories, but it doesn't.
I played several times on Reni start for HoF, goal of fastest conquest (samurai worked ok, iirc), and all these races are easily winnable, the least being Taj, especially if you put it third. However, then you need to prioritize library and 2 scientists, not REX, and you can pick a Philo leader - unlike our case. Still, Paci was a must for those races. We can start with slavery for settlers and like, switch to castes+paci (1 turn anarchy) for scientists even w/o libs, and then back to slaving libs and unis under OR (1 turn anarchy).
6 pop is a lot, even if we chop much, but for heroepic it'd be 250/2.25/30 = 3,7, and also less for bureau. It's like a factory, still. If we successfully choke close AI, we will spend 2 nukes on their cities and ~4-5 on each remaining, which calls for ~18 nukes. In a highly favorable event if we get a high-food heroepic city, which will slave half of them, and grow from 4 to 7-8 in 5-6 turns, we will have all the nukes required in ~45 turns. That's quite a run. Even if we concentrate on food, and cut this by mass-slaving nukes by half, factories look promising.
We would have no use of new cities as we cannot scrub the pollution - we can rely only on the production base we have. Therefore it is not the date of the first nuke that determines the finish, but the date of the last. If the range is 45 turns, factories have more than enough time to pay back. Still, calls for testing to be sure - we shouldn't focus too much on development, missing our opportunities to crush the enemies, as it was in the previous SGOTM.
The major harrasing points IMO are:
- stealing starting workers with starting lbows (Obormot's note)
- couple of early maces/knights for settler destruction, with some squads added later - can devote time after initial REX, hopefully before Oxford
- Privateers/Frigates - not off our path if we go for Bio, but quite delayed if we choose Factories first. Still, AI will first settle homeland, and send overseas settlers later, so we have a safety period here.
Somehow I expect civs with strong Medi-Reni-Indu units: Byz, Japan, Spain, Germany, HRE or England.
6 pop is a lot, even if we chop much, but for heroepic it'd be 250/2.25/30 = 3,7, and also less for bureau. It's like a factory, still. If we successfully choke close AI, we will spend 2 nukes on their cities and ~4-5 on each remaining, which calls for ~18 nukes. In a highly favorable event if we get a high-food heroepic city, which will slave half of them, and grow from 4 to 7-8 in 5-6 turns, we will have all the nukes required in ~45 turns. That's quite a run. Even if we concentrate on food, and cut this by mass-slaving nukes by half, factories look promising.
We would have no use of new cities as we cannot scrub the pollution - we can rely only on the production base we have. Therefore it is not the date of the first nuke that determines the finish, but the date of the last. If the range is 45 turns, factories have more than enough time to pay back. Still, calls for testing to be sure - we shouldn't focus too much on development, missing our opportunities to crush the enemies, as it was in the previous SGOTM.
The major harrasing points IMO are:
- stealing starting workers with starting lbows (Obormot's note)
- couple of early maces/knights for settler destruction, with some squads added later - can devote time after initial REX, hopefully before Oxford
- Privateers/Frigates - not off our path if we go for Bio, but quite delayed if we choose Factories first. Still, AI will first settle homeland, and send overseas settlers later, so we have a safety period here.
Somehow I expect civs with strong Medi-Reni-Indu units: Byz, Japan, Spain, Germany, HRE or England.
I think that is very optimistic. If we are isolated on a small continent, while all AI civs start on a single big continent, then we'll only be able to blockade the islands at best, while the big continent will still be fully covered with AI cities. I would expect at least 7-8 nukes for each civ.Lexad said:
But with biology a city can regrow in 1-2 turns, so a nice high food city will produce a nuke every 10 turns or so. If we have 10 such cities, we can build the required number of nukes in 30 turns.
akots
Poet
May be, Taj Mahal is of low priority in this type of game. I'm not sure we would actually benefit from it considering huge cost of building it. Short/regular Golden Age does not help as well. I'm here with Obormot for running slavery and representation, may be mercantilism in the beginning. But it is hard to tell anything about Pacifism or Org Religion. OR will speed up growth by reducing the cost of rushing improvements. Pac will speed up teching due to Great People points if there is enough food and we can run enough specialists. Considering a need to run slavery in the beginning, OR is apparently the first choice.
The game overall again comes to the tight balance between teching and production of required goodies (nukes, submarines, infantry/tanks/cavalry plus means of delivery including transports and destroyers) to actually advance onto these AI cities and
upon the AI. It is impossible to tell without knowing the layout of the map and AI disposition.
The game overall again comes to the tight balance between teching and production of required goodies (nukes, submarines, infantry/tanks/cavalry plus means of delivery including transports and destroyers) to actually advance onto these AI cities and
upon the AI. It is impossible to tell without knowing the layout of the map and AI disposition.alike I will not be able to communicate in the format of forum. too much words. 2/3 I do not understand. and I do not have time not on the detailed translation not the more so on writing of the unfolded answer. On an idea which in skaype I could expound for 5 minutes, here I need 2 hours. At least. Can later I them will find, but while will say basic. to AI it is needed belongs because he is not present as though. Our task from one side rapid to reach to nyukov with other not to give strongly settling apart to the moment of building of mankhettena.
For the decision of both tasks setler-spam befits with a minimum delay for the study of main necessary sciences - educations and constitutions. The best of all to learn them through great people. For us a very unsuccessful leader is for rene-starta. Industrializm will give very little (needed only tadzh and nac. wonders). an aggressiveness in general practically is not needed.
Yustinian or Gundy would be lot better. In an ideal game in a renaissance it is needed how hardly not each to change 5 motions (on kvike - on epike can hardly rarer) civiki. For us such possibility is not present, all revolutions are therefore necessary or to attach to GA or does without them. a representative office and bureaucracy is needed all time. and choice between slavery, by a serf by a right and castes very difficult. also in merkantelizm is the beginning needed, then gossobstvennost'. org religion and pacifism it is also desirable to alternate.
It very shortly but also on it for me a hour... went away as though it did not become my latest report here
if that incomprehensible - all claims to on-line to the translator
похоже я не смогу общаться в формате форума. слишком много слов. 2/3 я не понимаю. и у меня нет времени ни на детальный перевод ни тем более на написание своего развернутого ответа. На мысли которые бы в скайпе я мог изложить за 5 минут, здесь мне нужно 2 часа. Как минимум. Может позже я их найду, но пока скажу основное. к АИ нужно относится так как будто его нет. Наша задача с одной стороны быстро дойти до нюков с другой не дать сильно расселиться к моменту постройки манхеттена. Для решения обеих задач подходит сетлер-спам с минимальной задержкой для изучения главных необходимых наук - образования и конституции. Лучше всего их выучить через великих людей.
У нас весьма неудачный лидер для рене-старта. Индустриализм даст очень мало (нужен лишь тадж и нац. чудеса
. агрессивность вообще практически не нужна. Юстиниан или Ганди были бы значительно лучше. В идеальной игре в ренессансе нужно чуть ли не каждые 5 ходов (на квике - на эпике может и чуть реже менять цивики. У нас такой возможности нет, поэтому надо все революции или привязывать к ЗВ или обходится без них. представительство-бюрократия нужны все время. а вот выбор между рабством, крепостным правом и кастами очень сложный. также вначале нужен меркантелизм, потом госсобственность. орг религию и пацифизм также желательно чередовать.
Это очень коротко но и на это у меня ушел час... как бы это не стало моим последним сообщением сюда
For the decision of both tasks setler-spam befits with a minimum delay for the study of main necessary sciences - educations and constitutions. The best of all to learn them through great people. For us a very unsuccessful leader is for rene-starta. Industrializm will give very little (needed only tadzh and nac. wonders). an aggressiveness in general practically is not needed.
Yustinian or Gundy would be lot better. In an ideal game in a renaissance it is needed how hardly not each to change 5 motions (on kvike - on epike can hardly rarer) civiki. For us such possibility is not present, all revolutions are therefore necessary or to attach to GA or does without them. a representative office and bureaucracy is needed all time. and choice between slavery, by a serf by a right and castes very difficult. also in merkantelizm is the beginning needed, then gossobstvennost'. org religion and pacifism it is also desirable to alternate.
It very shortly but also on it for me a hour... went away as though it did not become my latest report here
if that incomprehensible - all claims to on-line to the translator
похоже я не смогу общаться в формате форума. слишком много слов. 2/3 я не понимаю. и у меня нет времени ни на детальный перевод ни тем более на написание своего развернутого ответа. На мысли которые бы в скайпе я мог изложить за 5 минут, здесь мне нужно 2 часа. Как минимум. Может позже я их найду, но пока скажу основное. к АИ нужно относится так как будто его нет. Наша задача с одной стороны быстро дойти до нюков с другой не дать сильно расселиться к моменту постройки манхеттена. Для решения обеих задач подходит сетлер-спам с минимальной задержкой для изучения главных необходимых наук - образования и конституции. Лучше всего их выучить через великих людей.
У нас весьма неудачный лидер для рене-старта. Индустриализм даст очень мало (нужен лишь тадж и нац. чудеса
. агрессивность вообще практически не нужна. Юстиниан или Ганди были бы значительно лучше. В идеальной игре в ренессансе нужно чуть ли не каждые 5 ходов (на квике - на эпике может и чуть реже менять цивики. У нас такой возможности нет, поэтому надо все революции или привязывать к ЗВ или обходится без них. представительство-бюрократия нужны все время. а вот выбор между рабством, крепостным правом и кастами очень сложный. также вначале нужен меркантелизм, потом госсобственность. орг религию и пацифизм также желательно чередовать.Это очень коротко но и на это у меня ушел час... как бы это не стало моим последним сообщением сюда
Dynamic
But not hurry
I'm on vacation till 16.08 so I'll not be very active during this time.
Cat Behemoth
Warlord
Checkin in here. Just to brake the silence. Learned everything posted here and took it into account. I haven't any special opinion for a while except one little thing. Maybe it worth to start with slavery, targets the Taj, build it with GE and then switch to CS during Golden Age? Just a variation of a small part of a plan. And also to mark here that I'm not dead.
Cat Behemoth
Warlord
A little note. Phylosophical leaders will receive GE faster but they'll use it for Medieval wonders - ND, SCh etc
Good note, CB! Still, expect harsh competition for Taj as most of the 1st GP will be Engineers (and some of the 2ns for Philo leaders may catch up).
Хорошее замечание, КБ! Тем не менее, нужно ожидать жесткой конкуренци за Тадж, поскольку бОльшая часть первых ВЛ будет ВИ, да и некоторые вторые могут успеть появиться у Фило лидеров.
Хорошее замечание, КБ! Тем не менее, нужно ожидать жесткой конкуренци за Тадж, поскольку бОльшая часть первых ВЛ будет ВИ, да и некоторые вторые могут успеть появиться у Фило лидеров.
The idea is interesting, but I guess we'll also need a GS or 2 to bulb education and/or build an academy. Of course a GA from Tadj will also speed up GP generation, but even then it might take too much time if we don't go for it first. Maybe we can gamble and produce a mixed scientist/engineer after the first GS. A very early Tadj without many worked tiles may be of little value, as akots said; but if we can get it with at least decent sized empire it would be nice.
With Merc, we're bound to have a mix with GE anyway.
При Меркантилизме, у нас все равно будет вероятность ВИ.
При Меркантилизме, у нас все равно будет вероятность ВИ.
I was thinking we could research one of the cities for a pure GS and run a plain citizen there instead of an engineer, then rush a library at some point and get a GS before any other city produces an engineer. By the time the GS is born other cities should have a significant amount of engineer points collected already, so even if we run scientists specialists after that, we should have a >50% engineer chance.
But the question is how valuable the engineer is? Taj costs 700 hammers, with forge, bureau, industrial trait & organised religion it is only 280 base hammers, while a GS is worth 1500+ beakers. Perhaps we should avoid engineers and try to get only scientists in the early game (later engineer is OK, we can use him for a GA).
But the question is how valuable the engineer is? Taj costs 700 hammers, with forge, bureau, industrial trait & organised religion it is only 280 base hammers, while a GS is worth 1500+ beakers. Perhaps we should avoid engineers and try to get only scientists in the early game (later engineer is OK, we can use him for a GA).
Dynamic
But not hurry
Do we play Epic speed? May be we should use right values for science and hammers?
And Rene-start also affects on cost of teches, isn't it?
And Rene-start also affects on cost of teches, isn't it?
We do play Epic, yes. Everyone, time to multiply by 1.5
Later starts affect building costs - hope to get more details from our onliners - do not remember anything in the code for tech costs.
Again, build Taj only if noone gets it in a reasonable time, and by GE. GS first for Edu for Liber is definitely worth much more than GE 1st.
Да, играем на Эпике, так что умножаем все на 1,5
Поздние старты влия.т на стоимость построек - надеюсь, онлайнеры расскажут поподробнее - насчет стоимости тех не помню, чтобы в коде был этот фактор.
Повторюсь - считаю, Тадж нужно строить, только если его никто не возьмет рано, да и то ВИ. Ранний ВУ для Образа на пути к Либеру, безусловно, полезнее первого ВЧ - ВИ.
Later starts affect building costs - hope to get more details from our onliners - do not remember anything in the code for tech costs.
Again, build Taj only if noone gets it in a reasonable time, and by GE. GS first for Edu for Liber is definitely worth much more than GE 1st.
Да, играем на Эпике, так что умножаем все на 1,5
Поздние старты влия.т на стоимость построек - надеюсь, онлайнеры расскажут поподробнее - насчет стоимости тех не помню, чтобы в коде был этот фактор.
Повторюсь - считаю, Тадж нужно строить, только если его никто не возьмет рано, да и то ВИ. Ранний ВУ для Образа на пути к Либеру, безусловно, полезнее первого ВЧ - ВИ.
Dynamic
But not hurry
This is tech-coefficient for Starting Era below, I don't know about building-coefficient now... need to watch code again.
Code:
case Era of
0: StartingEraCoeff := 100; // 'Ancient';
1: StartingEraCoeff := 90; // 'Classical';
2: StartingEraCoeff := 80; // 'Medieval';
3: StartingEraCoeff := 70; // 'Renaissance';
4: StartingEraCoeff := 60; // 'Industrial';
5: StartingEraCoeff := 50; // 'Modern';
6: StartingEraCoeff := 40; // 'Future';
end;Similar threads
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