SGOTM 10 - Team CFR

[Obormot]

Again, build Taj only if noone gets it in a reasonable time, and by GE.

Why by GE? Taj ASAP is of little value. Taj later can be built without slowing our developement too much. A GS gives much more beakers then a GE. According to Dynamic's table Taj it is even cheaper then I said before.

 

[Lexad]

Because Late Taj w/o slowing development is highly unlikely.

Dynamic, what did you want to say in Russian in coeff. post?

Поскольку поздний Тадж без замедления развития малореален.

 

[Dynamic]

Dynamic, what did you want to say in Russian in coeff. post?

Sorry, I was hurry. I meant I know starting era multiply coefficient for techs cost only, I don't know is it the same for buildings cost... I posted fragment of my own utility.

Прошу прощения, спешил. Я привел в том посте фрагмент кода от анализатора, где указан коэффициент стоимости технологий в зависимости от стартовой эры. Я пока не знаю, есть ли понижающий коэффициент для стоимости зданий и каков он, нужно в СДК лезть.

 

[Lexad]

There certainly is a coefficient, and our onliners should know it.

Коэффициент точно есть, наши онлайнщики должны его знать.

 

[OT4E]

All buildings are 10% cheaper compared to their normal cost in renaissance. It is also true for units and wonders as I know.

-10% in renaissance
-20% in industrial
-30% in modern 
-40% in future

There is no hammer discount for earlier starts like classical and medieval.

 

[Dynamic]

So, GS will be more useful then usually, but GE will not.

 

[Lexad]

This makes castes and paci at the start a more appealing option than before.

Это повышает привлекательность старта с цивиков Пацик и Касты

 

[Cat Behemoth]

This makes castes and paci at the start a more appealing option than before.

Это повышает привлекательность старта с цивиков Пацик и Касты

I agree with paci, but don't think that castes will be good from the start. We have a lot of recources and just one worker. I propose to start with slavery to fast rush of 1-2 workers and maybe boats. Without workers we'll grow slowly and castes will be of few effects.

Я согласен с пацифизмом, но думаю, что касты не очень хороши с самого старта. У нас много ресурсов и всего один рабочий. Я бы начал с рабства, чтобы быстро зарашить 1-2 рабочих или, возможно, лодки. Без рабочих мы будем долго расти и эффект от каст будет не столь хорош.

 

[Lexad]

The point of castes was to hire scientists from the start to avoid GE points. We can chop workers in this case, although it would be slower, and hope for a good catch from our neightbours.

Цель Каст - срау нанять ученых и не рисковать получить ВИ от бесплатного меркантилистского кузнеца. Можно начать с рубки рабочих, хоть это нас и задержит, и надеяться на удачный улов от соседей.

 

[Cat Behemoth]

My view: better to take GE and fast development then GS and slow. With fast workers we'll can hire GS as a second and third GP fast enough to take Liberalism. Most of AI's usually goes for Gunpowder from the start so we have a good chances to be the first in Liberalism competition. And catch from our neighbours is truly gambling.

На мой взгляд, лучше получить Инженера и быстрое развитие, чем Учёного и медленное. С быстрыми рабочими мы сможем нанять второго и третьего учёного достаточно быстро, чтобы взять Либерализм. Большинство AI начинает с Пороха ,поэтому у нас хорошие шансы быть первыми в гонке за Либерализмом. А улов от соседей - это самая настоящая лотерея.

 

[Obormot]

Don't forget that getting Taj also requires nationalism. Of course it is not a completely useless tech as it leads to constitution, but do we really want it ASAP, or are we going to target something else first (biology?). AI tech priorities are very important for this decision. Which techs are we likely to get in trades? Printing Press is a tech that AI sell even with when it is a monopoly tech, so maybe we should try getting it from them.

Basicly we have 3 civics options (slavery/OR, castes/pacifism and slavery/pacifism) that all look very strong. I really don't know which option to choose here. Others are more or less decided, I guess (bureau & merc). There is another lesser civic question: do we revolt to HR or stay in despotism untill representation becomes available? Of course HR is better if it doesn't cost an extra turn, but I am not sure about anarchy at epic. If it will cost an extra turn, I would rather stay in despotism.

Hm, just checked the civic switch costs at epic speed: 1-2 civics = 1 turn, 3-4 civics = 2 turns, 5 civics = 3 turns. So I would stay we should stay in despotism untill representation or untill golden age.

 

[akots]

My view: better to take GE and fast development then GS and slow.

+1

Only one Great Scientists is not that important IMO. We can get some later after good expansion and building 5+ cities.

 

[Dynamic]

Anarchy duration depends on number of changing civics, number of cities, world size, speed and starting era.
Look at http://dynamic.civfanatics.ru/Civ4Utils/SaveAnalyser/Civ4BSaveAnalyser_105.rar. It was made for 3.17 and can't open HOF-mod saves, but just open CivRu bookmark, there is an anarchy calculator on the lower part of page.
For applying changes you should shift the focus to other checkbox then edited.

 

[Dynamic]

For example, we can change 2 civics for 1 turn up to 11 cities, but 12 cities are already required 2 turns. 3 civics can be changed by 2 turns of anarchy up to 23 cities, 4 civics by 2 turns up to 11 cities and etc.
I don't know is it changed in 3.19 or BUFFY...

 

[Lexad]

I think it's a consensus that we do not want Taj ASAP - so no Nat-m as a first tech.

Without castes we're risking to get also 2nd GP as GE. Own commerce is rather low, even with 2 gold mines, AI have discounts, so if anyone overtakes us with GS and burns it on Edu, we miss Liber with high probability - and with it likely GM from Economics.
I'm not promoting this start, I'm exploring possibilities.

Вроде, у нас общее место, что ранний Тадж не нужен

Без каст у нас и второй Великий вполне может оказаться ВИ. Собственный ресеч низок, даже с 2 золотыми шахтами, у ИИ скидки, так что если кто-то получит ВУ и возьмет им Образ (да даже и без тог&#1086, то Либер мы с высокой вероятностью упускаем - а с ним и Купца от Экономики.
Я не проталкиваю конкретный старт, просто хочу проанализировать все стороны.

 

[Cat Behemoth]

A quick test: on Bureaucracy we'll can hurry a worker in a capital at the second turn without anarchy then chop library and even the first GP can be GS with high probability.
What about the anarchy that looks like no changes here - 2 civics 1 turn, 4 - 2, 5 - 3 (if we revolt at the first).

Небольшой тест: на бюрократии мы сможем в столице зарашить рабочего уже на втором ходу после анархииб затем можно срубить библиотеку и даже первый великий с большой долей вероятности будет учёным.
Что касается анархии, то, похоже, тут без изменений - 2 цивика - 1 ход, 4-2, 5-3 (если мы революционируем сразу ж&#1077.

 

[Cat Behemoth]

A settler still costs 100 hammers, but gives 2 pop, a forge and a granary (& lighthouse if coastal).

Looks like settler really costs 342 hammers.

Похоже, что на самом деле цена сеттлера - 342 молотка.

 

[Obormot]

I think we all agree that our first tech to research is education (for Oxford, and to secure liberalism). The question is what to learn after education.

After giving this some thought, I would say we should skip economics. We don't need the GM. The tech costs more then 2,1K beakers, that is almost as much as the value of a GP, and we are 100% sure to get the tech in trade at some point. There is no real benefit from learning economics ASAP, and we have other important targets. Just skip it, and we'll only have two races to worry about.

So basicly the choice is between constitution for representation, or biology for NPark & better farms. The path to biology is more then twice as long, and if we beeline biology, we should then skip Taj. It looks like the better option would be to target constitution next, after education. This way we can build Taj and probably take constitution with liberalism. Taj will allow us to switch civics to representation/castes/pacifism without anarchy. We should definitely avoid getting engineers though, because Taj will be very cheap, something like 350 base hammers, and it is better to build it by hammers/chopping.

 

[Lexad]

Looks like settler really costs 342 hammers.

One of unpleasant things I wasn't sure of on memory. Thanx for giving the detail, CB!

Что-то такое сидело в мозгу, спасибо за подтверждение. В онлайне, видимо, сеттлеров не строят

 

[Obormot]

Looks like settler really costs 342 hammers.

Похоже, что на самом деле цена сеттлера - 342 молотка.

You are right. That is more then twice the normal cost for this setting (150 hammers on ancient/epic). Workers and other units are not more expensive though, and actually they even get a 10% discount, as OT4E said (81 hammers instead of 90 for a worker).

So our conclusion about all-out REX is probably wrong. This makes choking wars even more important if we do have neighbours.