SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Abegweit]

quick my opinion (have to hurry)

attack sumeria, though my estimation is there by far a stronger oponent, both militarly and cultural.

no need to starve Tiwanku: next turn hurry settler (wil cost 4 pop) and then at size 3 again hurry next settler

OK. Sounds good although the new city will have a lot of unhappiness to deal with. I am going to complete my turns now.

 

[Abegweit]

Post deleted = Brain fart.

 

[Paul#42]

Anyone come to same conclusion as me looking at the drop off of culture per turn for A Team.

Unless they did an early palace jump (and why would anyone want to) they are going to have a hard time catching up after appearing to lose their capital.

I just think they changed government. Anarchy stalls culture.

 

[Redbad]

I just think they changed government. Anarchy stalls culture.

Yes, that makes sense

 

[Abegweit]

Executive summary of turns

1. We have founded two new cities and conquered four more. Two additional settlers are on the move.
2. We have doubled our horse count from six to twelve and our worker count from fourteen to twenty-eight.
3. Seven horses and an archer are waiting for an attack on Lagash. They have not moved in yet because of a need to protect the back country from wandering Sumerian troops. This could happen this turn but we might wait one in order to try and trick Gilgamesh into attacking us.

Turn log

IBT Nottingham worker -> horse

Turn 8 800BC There is an exploring Sumerian archer to the south. The attack on Lagash will have to wait until he is finished off. Attack barb horse with vet horse -> 3/5 horse. The barbs have been quite generous. Move an archer from Nottingham to Hastings in preparation. Reading founded -> worker. Hurry Tiwanaku as suggested.

Playing around, I just found out something interesting. Galleys may not be able to enter ocean but curraghs can! Should we try to find the other continent and map it out?

IBT There’s also an Enkidu south of Warwick Tiwanaku settler->settler. York worker -> worker. Coventry worker -> worker. Warwick horse-> horse. Oxford harbour - worker. Test curragh dies

Turn 9 775BC Move troops into position to protect southern workers and cities. Maya know Monarchy.

IBT Hastings horse -> horse; Newcastle worker -> worker; Norwich worker -> worker.

Turn 10 750BC Micro-manage cities

Post-op de-briefing

The archer has moved out of range of our workers while the Enkidu has moved unto a mountain beside Norwich. I am going to stop here and let the team decide when exactly to attack Sumeria.

I suggest we attempt to get them to declare with demands.

The eastern settler is headed for the mountain east-east-se of Machu Picchu. The southern one? Perhaps where the Sumerian archer is?

The worker sitting on Cuzco is intended to join the city.

All decisions are, of course, vetoable.

Note that we now have three 5-food cities, the third being York.

Edit: Norwich has 5 shields in on a horse and is currently doing 6spt. There are a number of ways to get an additional shield, but it should not happen this round. Also the warrior @Newcastle needs to move there.

 

[Abegweit]

I just think they changed government. Anarchy stalls culture.

Which means they got the slingshot

 

[Redbad]

But is that always an advantage. We have 19 cities and 55 units. Our unit upkeep would have been a murderous 72 gpt in republic.

 

[Abegweit]

There is actually little to choose between Republic and Despotism. Right now, we are making 58 gpt in Despo and would be making 50 gpt in Republic.

Given the ability to do so, I would revolt now. In fact, I would have revolted when we got our second lux. On the way out of anarchy, I would have disbanded some warriors and folded in some workers. Republic would rapidly become a better govt, even for war.

It is likely that they revolted too soon. I agree with that.

Edit: getting the slingshot is always an advantage. You are not forced to revolt, after all.

 

[Redbad]

Edit: getting the slingshot is always an advantage. You are not forced to revolt, after all.

yes, of course I agree with that.

It is of course the moment of revolution. I wouldn't be suprised if after their revolution they have to choose between self research and building an army. When they choose building an army it will be not unlike our game. And it isn't certain that Pachacuti has some Pyramids for them too

 

[Abegweit]

If we had gotten the slingshot, we would have done self-research instead of this long Republic gambit. We have over 500g in the kitty and hundreds more has been paid out to the AI. That could have supported a lot of research, whether we revolted or not. And, as I said,the moment to revolt is already past but we still have 13 more turns on our gambit.

And it isn't certain that Pachacuti has some Pyramids for them too

We did indeed have our share of luck too.

Edit: 20-20 hindsight is always good but anyway... In retrospect, we should have gone self-research. Even now, it is actually faster to switch to self-research than to continue the gambit. I don't like single scientist in C3C. It never seems to work and this is just one more example. Of course, I'm not suggesting the switch now. The cost to gain a turn or two is huge.

 

[Redbad]

As I think more about the A team and the slingshot, I get the impression that the A team developped differently in the early years. Up until 1750BC they are lacking behind us. My conclusion would be that they emphasised research more then we did, as we were all out on growth.
Looking at the names who form the A team, I would be suprised if they wouldn't have seen the excellent position of London that we have settled. So I'd say they took a different approach to the game to make the slingshot earlier possible.
Therefor one can not say in hindsight that we would have gotten the slingshot if we went for it, as we did emphasise growth.
Apart from that: when we have established our republic say in 410BC will we be worse off then had we fgone or the slingshot and emphasised commerce more?
When the A team reaches 410BC and are scoring higher then us will that be due to the slingshot or because they are on average better civvers. And when they are scoring lower will that be due to our Pyramids or because we emphasised food.
I'm still of the opinion that we have done well and given the chance I would have made no strategic alterations.

 

[markh]

Great turns, Abegweit.
Sumeria will get their GA when we attack and Enkidus are cheap. I would delay a little more and build up more units to ensure that we can roll over them like you did with Inca dude.

 

[Abegweit]

@markh. There are seven horses ready to attack Lagash, which is currently building the ToA. We should have no trouble taking the city. You are, of course, right that they will harder to take than the Inca were. I would have already gone to the attack except for the varmints in our back country.

It's interesting that they went from weak to average against us during my turns, despite the fact that I only lost one horse and never stopped the military builds.

 

[Abegweit]

Looking at the names who form the A team, I would be suprised if they wouldn't have seen the excellent position of London that we have settled. So I'd say they took a different approach to the game to make the slingshot earlier possible.

I believe that they are the only other team to have found this - and it is certainly true that the approach we took to getting the factory up emphasized growth over research.

Therefor one can not say in hindsight that we would have gotten the slingshot if we went for it, as we did emphasise growth.

We will never know this.

I'm still of the opinion that we have done well and given the chance I would have made no strategic alterations.

We have done well. Our one mistake was not going self-research and we have much compensation for it.

 

[Andronicus]

Re FP
Cuzco looks ideal, but is worth crunching some nubers with civassist first? Eyeballing it I cant see a more logical site.
If we use Cuzco and handbuild it I suggest court first (can be sped by rushing settler when 10 shields in box, then rushing spear when at size 2 (7 turns) -> 50 shields, then add in 3 chops of surrounding forest for court.
Can then add workers once in republic to get much quicker FP (should have about 30-40% corruption (dont have save, but civassist could give actual numbers). Would have to manage 2 whip unhappiness for a while though.
Getting FP as soon as poss after becoming rep would be good

Re war with Sumeria
Scary that they have gone from weak to average whilst we are building military, guess they have nothing else to build but cheap Enkido.
Is it worth getting monarchy and selling / gifting it to Sumeria turn before dow to prevent whipping more Enkindo and also to get a few turns of Sumerian anarchy?
]
Leaders
I think this is one key strategy we have neglected to consider. Having armies to take over to Barb Nation would give our units much protection and allow a stack of trebs or cannons close access. Thus leader farming should be a key strat in this game. This leads to question of what to do with leader. Whilst tempting to rush FP, I would prefer an army to get heroic epic so we can get more armies. I would suggest we need only fill one army on our home continent, any others should wait till we have better units and are ready to ship overseas

I just think they changed government. Anarchy stalls culture.

You may be right but that doesnt explain them having the same number of cities at 1750BC as 1500BC, when settlers produced immed before revolt would have settled.
A Rep slingshot in 1750BC sounds impressive - is it possible?
We will find out soon enough - if their culture curve continues at 2cpt they did revolt, if at 1cpt they lost their palace.
edit - they have recovered 2cpt immed so it was a revolt - wow that's a seriously early slingshot

 

[Abegweit]

Cuzco looks ideal, but is worth crunching some nubers with civassist first? Eyeballing it I cant see a more logical site.
If we use Cuzco and handbuild it I suggest court first (can be sped by rushing settler when 10 shields in box, then rushing spear when at size 2 (7 turns) -> 50 shields, then add in 3 chops of surrounding forest for court.

CivAssist says Tiwanaku is best but that Cuzco is a close second. It currently is 57% corrupt and would be 49% in Republic so I agree with your plan to get the court first.

Scary that they have gone from weak to average whilst we are building military, guess they have nothing else to build but cheap Enkido.
Is it worth getting monarchy and selling / gifting it to Sumeria turn before dow to prevent whipping more Enkindo and also to get a few turns of Sumerian anarchy?

No. The expense is just not worth it. If you are really scared of Gilgamesh, take on the Maya instead. We are average against them too but have been through my turns.

I think this is one key strategy we have neglected to consider. Having armies to take over to Barb Nation would give our units much protection and allow a stack of trebs or cannons close access. Thus leader farming should be a key strat in this game. This leads to question of what to do with leader.

I already considered this and, IMO, BGs would make mincemeat of armies. The AI doesn't hesitate to use bombers against armies and I can't see how these things would be any different.

 

[Andronicus]

I already considered this and, IMO, BGs would make mincemeat of armies. The AI doesn't hesitate to use bombers against armies and I can't see how these things would be any different.

Bombers do attack armies but rarely do sig damage with armies able to heal in interturn
Imagine a stack of 4 armies landing adjacent to Barb capital covering cannon and cav stack. The armies might get pretty beat up but the cannons only have to knock down the BGs and cavs could do the rest (maybe even cav armies). This would require lots of armies and we are only likely to get that with some serious thought to leader fishing
Once barb capital razed I expect no more BGs being produced

 

[Abegweit]

Bombers do attack armies but rarely do sig damage with armies able to heal in interturn

What level did this happen on? Enough bombers make mincemeat of armies.

Imagine a stack of 4 armies landing adjacent to Barb capital covering cannon and cav stack. The armies might get pretty beat up but the cannons only have to knock down the BGs and cavs could do the rest (maybe even cav armies).

Imagine 5 Musket armies facing 20 BGs. They would be redlined in a heartbeat. Then the other barb troops would pick them off. Hell. Imagine 5 BGs against 5 five musket armies advancing one tile at a time. They would be redlined before they ever got to the target. Imagine 5 cav armies against 5 BGs. They would be redlined as soon as they got in range.

This would require lots of armies and we are only likely to get that with some serious thought to leader fishing

No number of armies will work.

Once barb capital razed I expect no more BGs being produced

I agree. As you may recall, I originally proposed the theory that BGs are produced by the Barb capital's wonders - and I see no reason to think that I was wrong. The question is how to take it down. Once we have resolved that, we have won.

Each one of Gyathaar's games so far has had a theme. There have been three so far and eaxh one has had one and only one way to win. In the last SGTOM, the idea was to give Ghandi an elevator to the stars. Pretty muich all the teams glommed unto the idea. Some (read: Klarius) figured out how to get the AI to build the elevator. Lesser mortals (read: us) did it themselves. Unfortunately Ghandi refused to cooperate so the game tu8rned into a fiasco.

His next idea was to create a game in which warlord plays harder than emporer. The player HAD to take out the Indians and slog through mountains in order to get to... desert I played this until I had taken out the Sumerians just before I reached the IA with a pretty good date (1070 AD I thnk). Then I quit because I realised that I could neither raze and replace (no source of settlers anywhere near the front) nor keep (because the AI culture vastly exceeded ours). However I know I could have won, and others did, because I was already out-researching the AI. It was only Warlord after all.

So what the theme in this game? I gotta think it's been play-tested since the SGTOM9 debacle. And waddya know, the next game was winnable. I am sure this one is too.

Let's look at this one.

1. We are English. Coincidence? I don't think so.
2. The MoW stats have been subtly changed. Coincidence? I don't think so.
3. The AI UU is a transport killer. Remember that it knows where all your units are. Coincidence? I don't think so.
4. BGs cannot kill MoWs, but they can turn every land unit into easy pickings for any other random unit, even armies. Coincidence? I don't think so.
5. However, MoWs CAN kill BGs. Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

[Redbad]

Once we've knocked out the AI I don't see how the barbs will have any serious research. So I don't see them getting bombers any time soon. On the other hand I expect we have to get ourselfs marines. So we will have bombers if we want. I wouldn't be suprised if a major city of theirs is located in the middle of a lake. That would require airborne units to conquer it, wouldn't it?

I don't fear the BGs. Even if they are superior we surely will vastly outnumber them with our troops. We have to take out all off barbaria, so cav-armies will be helpful. And cav-armies run further then BG's can shoot. So I'm too are a great believer of armies in this game. Our first GL should defenitely form an army. In this army we can put 1 horse and wait for a redlined enemy with defense 1. After that we have to be on the lookout for very productive city who can build us armies later.

 

[Redbad]

Scary that they have gone from weak to average whilst we are building military, guess they have nothing else to build but cheap Enkido.
Is it worth getting monarchy and selling / gifting it to Sumeria turn before dow to prevent whipping more Enkindo and also to get a few turns of Sumerian anarchy?

No. The expense is just not worth it. If you are really scared of Gilgamesh, take on the Maya instead. We are average against them too but have been through my turns.

I was thinking maybe the next would be a funny move. Attack Sumeria and when they get their GA make pace with them asap.

Next bring our troops to Maya. Their UU is three times more expensive then the one of Gilgamesh and not really a bigger threat. We could push for getting monarchy in a peace deal.

Meanwhile our troops buildup has continued and Gilgamesh GA runs out. Time to reduce him to a single city.

How is that for a stratgey?