SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Paul#42]

If the TT is TGL-like we can just get ourselfs mono, theo and education first, gift it to the science civs and have it done with?

You mean waiting for Dr. Evil to start on Sistine's?
I'd rather have some better proof first, another Cotm where some opponent you can seal peace with owns the TGL and knows a backward civ you are about to kill. You gift one, some techs to that civ, kill it the same turn and watch if "Dr. Evil light" gets that tech(s) (rather two, if he researches one by incidence )

If the function of the TT is hard coded, is this also true for the tech it becomes obsolete with?

It might be worth dealing edu to Dr. Evil to find out if that kills his TT (regarding TGL-function).

 

[Abegweit]

If the TT is TGL-like we can just get ourselfs mono, theo and education first, gift it to the science civs and have it done with?

Any attributes given to the TT have to be things which can be set up in the editor.

We know of some of these attributes. It's an IA. It gives out units (how often is unclear). It also gives out techs that any other known two civs have.

"Expires with" is another attribute. I have little doubt that the TT does not expire, If it did, it would stop giving units too.

The exact mechanism by which the TT gives out techs must be identical to that of the GL. The question is this: if a civ learns a tech and then dies on the same turn, does the GL give it away or not? If it does, then so does the TT, If it doesn't, then the TT doesn't either.

If we gift the scientific civ into the IA, get their tech and then kill them, will the barbs know it too? Do we care?

Edit: can we still do that now that our rep is trashed?

 

[Abegweit]

If the function of the TT is hard coded, is this also true for the tech it becomes obsolete with?

No. That can be set in the editor. Open it up. It's interesting. Go to the Scenarios Menu, check the three flags at the bottom of it, then open up the dialog box at the top. It'll give you a feel for what Gyathaar can and cannot do to us.

Edit: the part about designing wonders is actually in the Rules menu.

 

[Andronicus]

o

If the TT is TGL-like we can just get ourselfs mono, theo and education first, gift it to the science civs and have it done with?

Only concern is that the description in civilapedia
TT is identicle to description for TGL (even includes wording the Great Library) with the following exceptions
cost reduced from 400 to 20, culture omitted, and requires literature omitted.(edit - left out that it omits expires with education - doh that was my whole point)I believe those changes made by Gyathaar are deliberate - if it expired with Education he would have left it in there. I am as certain as can be (even more certain than I was about Cuzco building Oracle ) that TT will persist

For this reason I have considerable concerns about gifting AI up into industrial age unless we can be certain that doing so and destroying their last city on the same turn denies transfer of that knowledge. My suspicion is that it does not.
I think we will leave Barbies well behind in science once we get into medieval ages and would expect to be meeting pikes and only poss muskets when we arrive with the cavalry ( of course the BGs will be more than a handfull in themselves, and once redlined, cavs wont last too long against LBs)

 

[Andronicus]

If we gift the scientific civ into the IA, get their tech and then kill them, will the barbs know it too? Do we care?

Edit: can we still do that now that our rep is trashed?

I think we do care if AI gets Nationalism and we have to fight rifles
Our trading rep is trashed presumably because of broken trade with Sumeria
Izzie will still accept gpt for cash but not Bill nor Gil, Izzie is at war with Gil. Thus we cannot pay gpt nor lux for Gil's free tech, but if we dont damage our trade rep further we can buy Gil's freebie, MA with Izzie v Gil then trade gpt to Izzie for her freebie before eliminating both of them

 

[Abegweit]

o

Only concern is that the description in civilapedia
TT is identicle to desription for TGL (even includes wording the Great Library) with the following exceptions
cost reduced from 400 to 20, culture omitted, and requires literature omitted.
I believe those changes made by Gyathaar are deliberate - if it expired with Education he would have left it in there. I am as certain as can be (even more certain than I was about Cuzco buildiong Oracle ) that TT will persist

Open up the page for the regular GL. You will note that it is divided up into three parts. I am pretty sure that the bottom two parts are generated automatically from the Rules (and Klarius made a reference to this on the Maintenance thread). This means that Gyathaar could not change this if he wanted to. The top part is a different story. He can put anything in there that he wants. Thus we can be sure that it doesn't expire.

 

[Abegweit]

I think we do care if AI gets Nationalism and we have to fight rifles
Our trading rep is trashed presumably because of broken trade with Sumeria
Izzie will still accept gpt for cash but not Bill nor Gil, Izzie is at war with Gil. Thus we cannot pay gpt nor lux for Gil's free tech, but if we dont damage our trade rep further we can buy Gil's freebie, dow Gil then trade gpt to Izzie for her freebie before eliminating both of them

Trading tech for tech will work fine in the ME. I suggest we do that.

 

[Andronicus]

Trading tech for tech will work fine in the ME. I suggest we do that.

I take it you mean we gift them up immed, see what they get free then research somethiog diff to trade. Doing thus in IA ensures Barbies know all our secrets.
Had another thought - we may not get any choice in the matter ... Barbie might just steal our secrets with intelligence agency . - at least that's what I would do if I couldnt keep up research with an opponent

 

[Abegweit]

I take it you mean we gift them up immed, see what they get free then research somethiog diff to trade. Doing thus in IA ensures Barbies know all our secrets.

No. We can't do this. I was talking about the MA. The AI may still be useful for research in this era. We could probably get Invention and Gunpowder from them.

Had another thought - we may not get any choice in the matter ... Barbie might just steal our secrets with intelligence agency . - at least that's what I would do if I couldnt keep up research with an opponent

An excellent reason never to know Nationalism.

 

[Andronicus]

More stray thoughts enter my head as I demolish this lovely bottle of red

Do we look for the 2 military wonders. Sun Tzu's is perhaps marginal benefit to save a few coins for rax, but Leo's would be useful if we want to upgrade galley -> caravel -> gal;leon and horse -> knight -> cav

On subject of knights . Do we skip chiv and go straight for MT? I guess it depends whether horses cont to do whats required . Obviously we will need something more powerful once feud is in

 

[Abegweit]

Leo's would be useful if we want to upgrade galley -> caravel -> gal;leon and horse -> knight -> cav

Leo's is useful. It might be an appropriate job for a interior shield-producer like Hastings on the long haul to MT. Another such city will need to pre-build the Academy.

On subject of knights . Do we skip chiv and go straight for MT? I guess it depends whether horses cont to do whats required . Obviously we will need something more powerful once feud is in

Skip chiv. It's an optional tech. We need Astronomy followed by Magnetism, MT and Steam.

And horses are fine against pikes. It might be hard to take down Constantinople with them but I didn't think that was in the plans.

 

[Abegweit]

Compare the civlopedia entries for BGs and Cannon. Notice that the Rules-generated section about resources matches the text at the top in one case but not the other?

 

[Abegweit]

Re: stealing techs.

What if we lose Astronomy before we get Magnetism?

 

[Redbad]

The A team doesn't seem to have expanded between 1000BC and 750BC We have more then twice their territory rating in 750BC

 

[AlanH]

lurker's comment: As already stated elswhere by Gyathaar, the civilopedia text was not modified for this game. It's a separate Civ3 file and there are no such files specific to this game in the SGOTM mod.

 

[Paul#42]

The A team doesn't seem to have expanded between 1000BC and 750BC We have more then twice their territory rating in 750BC

They might follow a more balanced approach where the AI rivals show more resistance to the barb nation and help research faster...

And we have had only two turns with ToA. We will have quite a blast in both culture and territory after the next turnset

Pity that we want education so quickly

 

[Abegweit]

Culture is only useful for expanding borders. We should have our lands filled in quite well by education.

 

[Paul#42]

true. And the land we did not grab by then will later be ICSed so there will be no need for culture in those slums

EDIT: half way true - I like the happiness issue, too - at least until we get more luxuries...

 

[Redbad]

@MA research & barb specials:

Technology Thieves

The fact that a wonder expires or not is automatically generated from the rules. You can trust the civilopedia with that. The description on top is totally unreliable

If we take klarius' word on this (and I'm in favour of that) this means that TT wil expire with Education. When doing so I'm in favour of letting the barbs get as few MA techs for free as possible. That means they only should get Monotheism, Theology and Education.
So we should only trade for Monotheism and even then not trade for it with another tech. If the AI doesn't get Monotheism for free just research it ourselfs. After having Monotheism, no trading but just onwards with Theology and Education. Trade that to the AI (but not for other techs). Then we can research Astronomy and Navigation. With Astronomy we could pick up Feudalism or Engineering from the AI, should they have got one or both of these. Then onwards to Military Tradition. In the meantime building the Leonardo's is an excellent idea.

Barbarian Guard

The description on top says it needs iron and salpeter. But as klarius points out that's totally unreliable. So we have to ignore that.

Barbarians cannot build them like normal units.. they receive a limited number of them by other means.

My idea about this is that the barbs already have them at this very moment. And their numbers are slowly growing. And that's of course their weakness too. The sooner we can bring in large numbers of cavalry the easier it will be to knock them out. After navigation we can map their whereabouts and after that beelining to MT and mass upgrade to cavalry enables us to attack them.

If more techs are needed we'll know by then. For now I would propose the above.

 

[Redbad]

Warplans for Juballs:

1. Finish off the Maya.
2. Revolt the second you can.
3. Turn the army around towards Gil. You can probably start the war. Enjoy.

At the moment Gil is our best friend and he’s in warmode as he has 2 wars running (against maya and against thea). I don’t know for sure, but he could be in his GA or if he’s not he could be at any time soon. Even without a GA he is the strongest AI, I think. And we still have to trade for his free MA tech shortly.
My plan would be not to attack Gil next, but Bill. Our army is at Bill’s border and we can possibly use construction to get Gil in on our side.

It would be best to reach understanding on this, otherwise Juballs has to decide for himself. (but then again maybe he would prefer that )