SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[Sir Bugsy]

@leif - just slot me back into my normal slot after scout. I can't play much this week anyway and I have another seminar on Monday. I've got to complete all my continuing education before the 30th.

Gator - did I swipe your slot? I thought I was following the capt. Sorry dude.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

OK, I'm too tired to keep playing tonight. Theodora doesn't have any tech and has sign an embargo against us. I think we should remove the Byzantines from our continent. Please voice your opinion over the next 20 hours or so.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Pre-flight – Well not exactly the most optimal way to build a strategic rail net. I always rail flatlands first and then go for the hills. I also move orthogonally when ever possible. We seem to have taken the AI method of railing => improve cities first then connect cities.

I didn't have any problems with Barb landings. That means building the coast-to-coast (strategic) rail network is less important. That's why I prioritized our cities. The reason we have a network in the first place, is since this obviously is a secondary priority, I didn't want to waste turns by moving workers all across the continent until they got to our productive cities, so they railroaded their way...

I move several healthy units out of Apache 2. We’re in anarchy, so there isn’t a lot to do in the cities other than ensuring they don’t riot.

Sorry, forgot to do that

We were building a temple in one city. Remind me to recite Bede’s diatribe on temples for you guys some time.

I must have missed that temple, or misclicked during an intraturn. I never build temples this late in the game and only in a very few very productive cities in the early game.

 

[scoutsout]

OK, I'm too tired to keep playing tonight. Theodora doesn't have any tech and has sign an embargo against us. I think we should remove the Byzantines from our continent. Please voice your opinion over the next 20 hours or so.

Espionage is the only reason I can think of to keep Theodora around. If there's a chance we can keep researching towards Marines and get her to research Espionage for us... it might be worth keeping her around...though I suspect she's researching Fascism. How badly do we need a SPHQ?

As far as I'm concerned... I do not want to research any more techs that aren't essential to reach Amphibious Warfare. There's an off chance Theodora might even research Flight for us while we work on MassProd>Motorized Transportation....

If you decide to erase Theodora... you might want to go ahead and build an Army with the MGL. Matter of fact... build one anyway. We can use Pentagon as a SPHQ Pre-build, can't we?

Teoihuacan 2 is guarded by a rifle... and the Barbarians have a tile railed on that island...I would expect stiffer resistance when we hit the mainland. How are we fixed for Artillery pieces?

@Bugs, team: do we want to consider mobilization? If we do...then we'll need to go ahead and build whatever we need in terms of Universities...

 

[DJMGator13]

Gator - did I swipe your slot? I thought I was following the capt. Sorry dude.

Not really, you're in your normal slot. I think leif was trying to sneak me in from when I missed my set during the conference. With my current schedule I couldn't play much until Friday anyway. So keep up the pressure.

Do we need the SPHQ?
The biggest thing I saw when studying where to put the SPHQ was that it lowered the waste (corruption) from 24% to 19% in about 18 cities. The city it is built in will drop to 9%, which equated to a +4spt for Newcastle. In some cities the 5% difference is not enough to gain a full spt. It would be nice but it won't break us if we delay it.

In Comm we poprush so we may want to gift some gold to the BYZ to increase their research capability and gift some happy luxes to them as well. I'd keep a firm grip on the strategic resources though. At least until they can build some decent naval units.

 

[leif erikson]

Theodora doesn't have any tech and has sign an embargo against us. I think we should remove the Byzantines from our continent.

We needed her for her change of age tech. With Communism, her cities will be reasonably productive and help the war effort. She also has a wonder that would be nice to have in Leo's.

The only question I have is what effect taking cities that would be corrupt will have on our other cities, as Communism spreads the corruption out evenly. If we're going to lose 10% in our current cities, then I'm not sure we're gaining much?

And that may be the reason to build the Secret Police HQ, to accomodate the Byzantine cities?

In Comm we poprush

In lower production cities, should we send the workers to emphasize food production to feed our need for units? If we plan to finish in Communism, we might as well. Are the rules concerning happiness the same as in vanilla with regard to pop rushing?

do we want to consider mobilization?

I think we should consider this. Again, I haven't played Communism in C3C before so if we get enough extra shields out of it, we may not have to pop-rush so often. From what I see, we are behind in culture and are not going to catch up, so we may as well use the extra production as we'll need all the units we can get!!

 

[Mistfit]

can the SPHQ can be built with a leader? We should have one available right?

 

[leif erikson]

can the SPHQ can be built with a leader? We should have one available right?

I think so, but we also need Espionage, iirc. The issue is the time it take to get Espionage versus heading straight for Amphib Warfare...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I didn't have any problems with Barb landings. That means building the coast-to-coast (strategic) rail network is less important. That's why I prioritized our cities. The reason we have a network in the first place, is since this obviously is a secondary priority, I didn't want to waste turns by moving workers all across the continent until they got to our productive cities, so they railroaded their way...

These aren't meant to be criticisms of your play. I am just pointing out things that could be different. For example on the rail net. We didn't just go directly from city to city, there was a lot of additional tiles improved in cities that weren't even big production cities.

Additionally, we weren't going for the easiest way between cities, we were railing hills, for example south of Ur. I am not trying to you. I am just trying to point out different ways of thinking about the game that may help you in the future. None of us are perfect, especially me. I am constantly learning new ideas about this game. Probably why I am still playing three years after I first received it (Father's Day 2003).

OK, I'll continue playing. I will wipe out Theodora and use the leader for an army.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Duplicate post.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Theodora is turning into a lousy research partner. Still nothing to buy.

Kill the three invaders. (9-3)

To be continued….

I stop and eat a very late dinner. Yes, I have fallen victim to the “just one more turn” syndrome… again.

IBT – The Barbs have ironclads. We split six battles and enslave two. The barb fleet was interested in our amphibious landing. (12-6)

1210 – Sink an ironclad. Land next to Teoihuacan 2. (13-6)

IBT – Theodora is part of a trade embargo now. So it doesn’t matter what she comes up with techwise.

1220 - @ Teoihuacan 2 – The AI drafted a rifle dropping the pop to 6. Bombard, kill the three defenders, lose a cav in razing the city.


We now have a fairly effective railnet, so I start improving around the Hoover build city. (15-6)

I am way too tired and I have to get up to go to work in seven hours. I stop for the evening.


Day Two – I read everyone’s comments. I convert the leader to an army and create a cav army.

@ Caesarea – Use our new cav army to take out two rifles, kill a third with a cav and and MDI with a cav and…


@ Trebizond – Use an MDI army and two cavs to take the city –


@ Varna – We lose three cavs, but… kill the five defenders and…


Since we are in three wars, and we can get a treaty with the Mayans if we have to, plus we have plenty of infrastructure going, I mobilize.

1240 - @ Smyrna – We retreat four times, and lose two cavs to three regular rifles in a pop 6 city.


To be continued...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

OK, I owe the entire team a huge apology. By mobilizing, all our infrastructure builds shifted over to military builds, including all the shields we had invested in the Hoover Dam. We lost all that production. I am very sorry and it is all my fault. No excuse.

IBT – We lose two MoW on the east coast. I was trying to consolidate our units into a fleet. The barbs are swarming over there. Varna flips. We lose a rifle.

1250 – We recapture Varna at the loss of two cavs.

@ Constantinople – We kill six defenders, lose five attackers and retreat five times. There is still a rifle standing. The city is burning, but that is the poorest set I have played in a long time.

Pick off all but one of the loose Byzantines and move a stack of cannon towards their northern city. Good thing Scout is following me.

Theodora is down to four cities, and doesn’t have any attackers.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/Xteam_SG010_AD1250_01.SAV

 

[Sir Bugsy]

OK, I'll continue playing. I will wipe out Theodora and use the leader for an army.

A little comeupance for Bugsy.

 

[scoutsout]

Good thing Scout is following me.

Boy... that's a backhanded compliment if I ever heard one.

A little comeupance for Bugsy.

Don't sweat it Bugs... "Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield." It was your day to be the bug. I feel partially to blame, because I'm the one who kept carping about mobilizing the economy.

IIRC, we can still build Pentagon in Mobilization... but I think if you sign peace and change the build from a military build to a non-military build you lose the shields from mobilization.

If it's okay with the team, I'd rather take some time for discussion and analysis... rather than jump right into playing tonight. What I'll probably do is download the Good Cap'n's save and Bugsy's save... and do a little analysis. Then I'll probably come back with some ideas and questions.

@Gator: I'm probably going to want some serious help from you.

Without looking at the saves... I suspect we are in for a "shift in gears", with these being the obvious shifts:

1. A shift in tactics. This will entail de-mobilizing our economy, and re-initializing our infrastructure/kulcha builds. Though it's the more obvious course of action... the cure may be worse than the sickness. As Bugs just re-learned the hard way... mobilization comes at a price.
2. A shift in strategy. This will entail re-thinking our approach to the game, and figuring out a way to win it from the current position. I suspect we will find this option less painful than we currently imagine.

Though it pains me a little to forego much of the pre-IA discussion we had... we already got a little off track with taking Atomic Theory>Electronics as our freebie ToE techs. I'm not trying to be critical here Cap'n, but Leif correctly pointed out that we didn't need those techs for Marines... I wish I would have carped on that point a bit more (because he was so very right)... bug, windshield, etc.

Okay... foregoing previous discussion... and without looking at the saves... here's how I see our "two shifts":

Demobilizing:

• Advantages:
  • We can re-initiate our infrastructure builds, including wonders, factories, and commerce improvements.
    • I want to take a good look at what we had in the queue before... and we'll all have to consider what we need versus what we just think we want.
    • As for wonders... big whup. We can win without 'em. (1bpt to Ision)
• Disadvantages:
  • The cure may be worse than the sickness.
  • We lose that boost in military production.
  • We cannot cash-rush in communism. If we shift gears, we will need to decide exactly what infrastructure we need where, and we'll need to wait until it completes before finishing it.
• scout's tactical angle: At the risk of tooting my own horn... Bugs had a point about me being up. I'm okay at shifting gears.

Playing on a War-Time footing

• Pro:
  • We get the boost in military production... and this is a game for warmongers.
• Cons:
  • I'm not sure mobilizing the economy helps with Naval and Aircraft builds. At least that's the way it works in the WWII Pacific Conquest scenario.
  • We cannot build science improvements...and these late-IA techs aren't cheap.
• Scout's Tactical Angle (TM): The biggest concern here is tech. We could borrow a page from the Book of Bede to boost our science. If we can gain that foothold on the Barbarian Continent, we can build a bunch of combat settlers and spam towns over there; irrigate/rail everything, and hire a bunch of scientists to boost our research efforts.

I'm not worried. We're going to win this thing, and we're going to turn in a respectable win. And even if we don't win a stupid award... we're going to have some fun playing the game.

 

[leif erikson]

No problem Bugs, I advocated for a switch to Mobilization as well. And I have made my fair share of mistakes this game...

Techs - We have 7 techs needed to get to Amphib Warfare. At 40% research, we are currently producing 331 beakers per turn.
Industrialization requires 3600 beakers and we can do that in 8 turns at 60% science rate (which is 450 bpt).
The Corporation requires 3000 beakers, at 450 bpt, that is 7 turns.
Refining requires 4800 beakers, that's 11 turns.
Steel requires 4200 beakers, that's another 10 turns.
Combustion requires 4800 beakers, another 11 turns.
Mass Production requires 4200 beakers, 10 more turns.
Lastly, Amphib Warfare requires 3600 beakers, 8 turns.

To complete Amphib Warfare will require us, at 60% science (the way we are currently configured), at least 65 turns.

If we think we can take the Barbs out before the 65 turns are up, then we should consider demobilizing.

On the military front, our Army consists of:
7 Crusadres
3 Trebs
22 Medieval Infantry (upgrade to Guerillas)(3 in Army)
3 Armies
23 Cannon
30 Cavalry
9 Rifles
3 Muskets
1 Pike
4 Swords (3 in Army)
1 Spear
1 Archer
30 Workers (not counting slaves, with slaves,a total of 89 workers)
2 Settlers
Our Navy:
14 MoW (counting slaves, a total of 21 MoW)
1 Galleon

It looks to me as though we have to produce Infantry and Artillery to win this game. Infantry cost 90 shields and Artillery 80, in mobilization, we can pump out a unit in 4 to 5 turns in most larger cities. We can use cash to upgrade Medieval Infantry to Guerilla and Cannon to Artillery, so most of our builds will need to be Infantry as we have a lot of Cavs at the moment. We can build Armies about every 10 turns.

I am having a hard time envisioning that we can defeat the Barb nation in less than 65 turns, although I have been known to be wrong before. The key tech, Replacable Parts, is ours next turn. The rest are just a necessary evil to get to Amphib Warfare. I have not seen mention of us meeting Barb Infantry yet but perhaps we will when we get to the continent.

Although extremely bloody, I have defeated Inf with Cavs before, as long a Artillery are available.

Economy/Production
Factories cost 240 shields. In most cities, averaging 30 shields production, that means at least 8 turns devoted to building them. That is 2 units per city in trade off. Will Factories give us enough of a boost to recover the time lost in building them if we can take down the Barbs in 65 turns?
EDIT - Forgot to mention the production increase we will see from railing as well. Once the strategic network is up, we'll need to prioritize cities and rail out from most productive I imagine.

Bottom line:
I am thinking that we are fine where we are and can use Mobilization to make up for the shields we'd lose by not building factories and Hoovers'. Given the time line, perhaps it is time to build some Cav Armies, use our current Armies to shield our artillery stacks and flood the Barb Continent with Infantry units so they can expend themselves on them. So, I am advocating that we go for it; the time to begin our relentless attack is at hand?

This decision is somewhat irreversible as to demobilize we have to declare peace with someone, although if it doesn't work out, I suppose we could declare on the Dutch or Mayans and then make peace to demobilize.

That's my back of the envelope analysis. What do you guys think?

 

[scoutsout]

...we could declare on the Dutch or Mayans and then make peace to demobilize.

IIRC, we're still at war with the Maya... so we do have an "easy out" to get demobilized...

That's my back of the envelope analysis. What do you guys think?

Your analysis is good enough to be copied over to a text file for me to refer to as I look at these saves.

From the sound of your post... it sounds like we're of the same mind... let the kitty-cats lick up the spilt milk, and let's take our mobilized economy and go play whack-a-barb.

 

[leif erikson]

From the sound of your post... it sounds like we're of the same mind... let the kitty-cats lick up the spilt milk, and let's take our mobilized economy and go play whack-a-barb.

Yup, sounds like it to me. The only caveat from me is if we think the battle for Barb Land will take longer than 65 turns, then it may be worth the extra time and effort to build factories. One thing I forgot in my analysis is that I used mobilized city shield production numbers in figuring out how long factory builds will take. That means they will actually take longer to build; ten or more turns, a poor investment in time perhaps!

Good luck with your analysis Scout.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

well Leif is making me feel a little better about the mobilization. But I think he is right. We did get a nice production boost. I think we can use the northern islands as a staging point for a mainland invasion. We can set up some nice ship chaining and resupply ourselves easily. We don't need to fear a Mayan or Dutch invasion. The Barbs would sink any of their fleets fairly rapidly.

First we need to get those last four Byzantine cities.

 

[leif erikson]

well Leif is making me feel a little better about the mobilization. But I think he is right. We did get a nice production boost. I think we can use the northern islands as a staging point for a mainland invasion. We can set up some nice ship chaining and resupply ourselves easily. We don't need to fear a Mayan or Dutch invasion. The Barbs would sink any of their fleets fairly rapidly.

Please don't sweat it. As I said above when we crossed, it is all about time. Do you think we can knock off the Barbs in 65 turns? I'm not good at figuring out how long something will take to do. I always underestimate.

First we need to get those last four Byzantine cities.

Yes, and while we're doing that, start building Infantry units and collecting Gold for upgrades. But no upgrades until we take Adrianople and Leo's; half price is always nice!!

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I don't think we should demobilize.
It's a commitment we've made now and it may turn out to be less than it looked like. At least we're thoroughly geared for war now. Let's get to tanks and roll over these guys. They've been bugging us too long now