SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

How many sources of rubber do they have? I can't believe Gythaar would only give them one source. If that is their only source it is a no brainer.

That is why I posted the save, so someone could check my old eyes. I went over it 5 times this morning and still can not believe there is only one source!!

One option would be to cut the continent in half. That would deny rubber and salt to the north and their core.

I thought of this but won't Harbors transport the Rubber as well as roads? I think we need to either send down 3 Armies to take and occupy those tiles or send an Army down there to create a "salient".

This is why I am going to wait until the tam decides how we want to approach this. Many resources could be spent here, depending upon the decision.

I think what we may want to do with the Barb cannons is move a stack of artillery under two armies within range of the cannon. Focus on one cannon, bombard it to one then attack it with an army. Rinse and repeat 16 times. Then move on to their capitol.

I think this could get costly. They seem to have the same RNG deals as Artillery. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they do some damage, and sometimes they do some serious damage. Once we get close to the Barb Stronghold, all of them within range 3 will fire each turn. If we decide to go for it, I think a couple of stacks, with 2/3 of our Artillery, should be used and see if we can take out several in a turn?

 

[scoutsout]

Okay... I took a look at the save. Here are my thoughts on a pillaging mission:

• I, too, see only one source of Barbarian rubber.
• I also see only two sources of Saltpeter, which might be pillaged by the same task force.
• I think an adequate Pillaging Task Force might be comprised of an Infantry Army, a Cavalry Army, and 4 Explorers.
• Assuming we can spare the naval units to move (and cover) such a task force, it then becomes a question of priorities and logistics.
• I think this war will last long enough that it would be beneficial to pillage that rubber, if it's logistically feasible.

On the northern front... I suggest we build a wedge. Not a salient but a wedge. To do this without creating a salient, we need to push on the flanks before pushing in the center. Here's a little dotmapping for the team to consider:

The team members who followed me did a nice job of developing the right (northern) flank.

If it wasn't for these blasted Barbarian Cannon Thingies ("BCT's") we could settle on that rockpile and consilidate that flank. Unfortunately, everything inside the Big Red Square is within range of the BCTs.

For this reason, I submit a plan for "rolling up the flank". The first tactical priority is sacking Teoihuacan. Next we plant combat settlers on the site NE of Teoihuacan's rockpile, then the 2 sites that would consolidate both flanks (the plains tile and the rockpile tile on opposite sides of the lake).

Once the flanks are consolidated, we can focus our fighting efforts towards controlling the two blue squares. Once control of these squares is gained, we can push in the center towards Barbarian Stronghold...

What do you guys think? Can we pull all that off and still spare the logistics for a pillaging mission?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I would focus on one of those cities... the northern-most one next to the lake. Why? I'm sure those things have lethal bombard. That spot is only going to get hit by five cannon per turn and we can counter attack from that location.

 

[leif erikson]

Before I get into a discussion about taking the Barb Stronghold, I think I need to ask why do we need to take it right away?

The Barb Stronghold is a massive production center that can also research quite well. The Barb Stronghold contains the wonders Technology Theives, The Mausoleum of Mausollos, Smith's and Sun Tzu's. But what is it without the surrounding cities and territory, a massive production center that can produce Guerillas, Longbows, Pikes and Knights?

If Bugs is correct and those things have lethal bombardment, having 14 or more pounding away at whatever gets within that red square that Scout has drawn is going to be bloody combined with the production of the cities they still have. I think we can take it but at what cost?

Ater reading your posts and sleeping on it, I am more inclined to stay out of their range, they can't be moved, and work the periphery to leave them isolated in the center, make them a donut hole of our doughnut.

What I'm suggesting is that we start to work our forces to the south. Teoihuacan contains Coperinicus Observatory and wiping it out would put a further hurt in his research rate, after Newton's got wasted. I think we have the forces in the north to maintain ourselves. Perhaps it is time to shift our focus southward, both in terms of moving forces that way from our current position and determining where we send further reinforcements produced in our homeland? Destroy everything outside the range of those big guns.

I believe that the pillaging missions are key to our success. I would be willing to slow our progress in the north to achieve results in the south, so the assets needed to do that become a requirement from my point of view.

One of the keys to victory in the Pacific in WW II was the concept of by-passing strong points and letting them wither on the vine. I am suggesting we consider this in dealing with the Barb Stronghold. By denying them resources and working around the outside of those thing's range, maintaining our good to excellent kill ratio, we eat up his production and assets while growing our own strength. At some point, when his southern area is eaten away along with his cities around the outside of the Barbarian Guard range, then we can combine forces and make quick work of it.

One of the problems with this startegy is that it will take some time to produce sufficient quantities of Artillery to head south with. I think I would have to change many of the Cav builds to Artillery to build enough to make the strategic difference. I think it is the key unit to success in fact!

 

[scoutsout]

Before I get into a discussion about taking the Barb Stronghold, I think I need to ask why do we need to take it right away?

We don't. But it will need to be taken at some point... sooner rather than later; few things get the AI gassed as quickly as sacking the capitol. To me it seems only logical to discuss how it is to be taken.

In this case, sacking the capitol (probably) takes away much of Barbaria's ability to steal technology from us. It would be nice if we could get a technological edge on the Barbarians; we can bring this to endgame quickly if we can get bombers and/or tanks and they have none.

If...those things have lethal bombardment, having 14 or more pounding away ... is going to be bloody ... I think we can take it but at what cost?

When you're on the receiving end of combined arms, "quantity has its own quality". The key here is hit-point math. To withstand the bombardment, you simply need to have more hit points available than they have bombardment points. Assuming a) Lethal Bombardment and b) a rate of fire value of 3 then c) one BCT could theoretically kill a regular unit. But it could only redline a Veteran unit. It's also important to note that a city founded on the rockpile (as Bugs is advocating) is in range of only 5 BCTs. So if you've got 6 Veteran Infantry and a Barracks in the town, you've got a sponge that can soak up their bombardment. Pile 4 more Infantry in there plus a couple of Guerrillas, and we should be able to hold that position.

I am....inclined to stay out of their range...work the periphery...make them a donut hole of our doughnut.

That'd be one mighty big donut.

What I'm suggesting is that we start to work our forces to the south. Teoihuacan...

If I read Bugs' post correctly, he's advocating a position on the northern flank... If you're advocating that we work on the southern flank...

... I think from a tactical standpoint, you are both correct... We're not going to hurt ourselves by strengthening either flank.

I believe that the pillaging missions are key to our success. I would be willing to slow our progress in the north to achieve results in the south, so the assets needed to do that become a requirement from my point of view.

I think there is real risk involved in slowing our northern campaign. The risk lies in the fact that we are essentially fighting them head-on up there. We absolutely must not let our resupply capability falter; in doing so we risk a war of attrition... and give an advantage to the enemy.

I think pillaging can be very helpful, but we must not commit so many resources to that effort that we can't keep the pressure on in the north.

I'm going to skip the rest of my comments, as I just had a flash of insight...

...more to follow.

 

[scoutsout]

In considering the Barbarian Stronghold position, there are two major obstacles we must overcome.

• The ring of mountain fortifications.
• The BCTs - Barbarian Cannon Thingies.

In considering the fortifications, I'm reminded of the battle for Fort Pulaski, a masonry rampart fortification that was built to guard the harbor at Savannah, Georgia. The battle is significant because it saw the first use of a new weapon - the rifled cannon. During the American Civil War, Union troops hammered away at one particular section of the walls with a handful of the new artillery pieces - essentially demolishing a corner of the fort. Once breached, the Confederate commander realized the futility of maintaining the position... and surrendered.

This ring of forts is our Fort Pulaski. Once breached, it is useless.

In dealing with the BCTs, I think I've spotted a weakness. These things have 8 hit points. How is that a weakness? Let me re-phrase the sentence:

These things have hit points.

In other words, they can be weakened. If weakened, and fired the turn after they're weakened... they shouldn't heal.

Though I don't like the idea of meeting the Barbarians head-on in the mountains... I think it's the key to breaking their backs.

Back to my "consolidate the flanks" dotmap... a town planted on the rockpile (@Bugs: you advocate we do this next, right?) would put their BCT's in the E-NE within range of our artillery. When the southern flank is consolidated, we'll be able to envelop the eastern corner of Barbarian Stronghold with our forces, hammering anything in that corner with our own artillery.

Consolidating both flanks will allow us to do some worker stuff (railing, filling potholes, irrigating) that will give us a margin of safety at Toehold, and give us a place to put a few airfields as the game progresses. When the rails are done and the 'rax completed at toehold, we'll be able to rotate troops locally for healing... which will ease our logistics considerably.

 

[leif erikson]

In this case, sacking the capitol (probably) takes away much of Barbaria's ability to steal technology from us. It would be nice if we could get a technological edge on the Barbarians; we can bring this to endgame quickly if we can get bombers and/or tanks and they have none.

This is essentially what I'm advocating. Without Rubber, there will be no tanks and no Infantry, ever!

I think we are thinking along much the same line, just looking differently at how to achieve it. We both want to get an advantage, and taking resources will provide us that "edge". He will be building Middle Age units in the Modern Era. All the flight units require Oil and/or Aluminium. Next turn, we'll see where the Oil is. If it is in the south, going there becomes even more imperative, imho. Weakness in Logistics is always the key, find it and exploit it (It is Rubber)...

I think there is real risk involved in slowing our northern campaign. The risk lies in the fact that we are essentially fighting them head-on up there. We absolutely must not let our resupply capability falter; in doing so we risk a war of attrition... and give an advantage to the enemy.

I think pillaging can be very helpful, but we must not commit so many resources to that effort that we can't keep the pressure on in the north.

It seems to me that as long as he can build Infantry, Cavalry and, soon perhaps Tanks, we are fighting him head on! The name of the game is fastest to finish him off, style points don't count.

Think of this perhaps? How many turns and how many units do you think it will take to raze the Barb Stronghold? How many cities can we take given that amount of time and those resources? What is the trade-off in taking the Barb Stronghold versus swinging south and fighting our way to the chokepoint?

Better yet, how much production and research capacity are we going to chop off by taking the Barb Stronghold versus going around it and whacking his cities?

While it won't be any easier later, we will have secure flanks for sure and I don't think we'll be too worried about loss ratio...

 

[scoutsout]

Here's a thought... Take an Infantry Army and a Cavalry Army... (Take the 2nd of each...and dub it "Task Force Double Deuce") and move them over land towards the rubber. Pillage and kill any soft targets along the way... torch the choke point, and go after the rubber...

Armies can heal in enemy territory, after all. And this won't put a strain on our seaborne logistics...

Whaddya think?

 

[leif erikson]

Here's a thought... Take an Infantry Army and a Cavalry Army... (Take the 2nd of each...and dub it "Task Force Double Deuce") and move them over land towards the rubber. Pillage and kill any soft targets along the way... torch the choke point, and go after the rubber...

Armies can heal in enemy territory, after all. And this won't put a strain on our seaborne logistics...

Whaddya think?

I think it is a must do!

I am still concerned over the time and units we're going to spend to take out the Barb Stronghold and continue to wonder if there is a smarter way? It is always better to cut your steak into small pieces than trying to chew it whole...

 

[scoutsout]

@Leif: If you're uncomfortable settling on Bugsy's rockpile, then work on the southern flank. Use everything we can muster to sack Teoihuacan, and then let two armies depart from that action to make a run for the rubber.

But I do think we'll need to go after Stronghold... pretty soon.

 

[leif erikson]

@Leif: If you're uncomfortable settling on Bugsy's rockpile, then work on the southern flank. Use everything we can muster to sack Teoihuacan, and then let two armies depart from that action to make a run for the rubber.

I don't know that I am uncomfortable with it. Once done, we are committed to a strategy that will require us to put up a hell of a fight. I would like to hear from a few of our mates before committing us to such a course.

Settling on that rock pile, and having things work right, depends upon having a Rax. Would it be smart to build a couple of settlers to join so we can pop rush it?

But I do think we'll need to go after Stronghold... pretty soon.

Is it because it will take the wind out of their sails? I am not clear on why it needs to go sooner rather than later? If it can't build tanks or mech infantry, it doesn't matter how much research it completes, does it? Meanwhile, we will soon be building Tanks and, talk about combined arms, I don't think they'll last too long with Artillery bombardment followed by a Tank assault!

In the meantime, we can continue to sack cities and raise all kinds of hell within his empire.

 

[Mistfit]

You've got a couple of them IIRC in one of the stacks on the isle already.

I would like to have a go at the Barb Stronghold as I think It will cripple them overall.

I like to play chancey games and hope for the best

 

[DJMGator13]

Good discussion. A few more items to consider:

1) Gyathaar indicated (in this post) that there were only a limited number of the cannons, so I think they have indeed been placed there from turn 0 and they have no movement poits.

2) Harbors do indeed connect cities and resources and the Barbs have them on both halves of the continent. So pillaging the roads by the chokepoint won't work.

3) Chanca2 (chokepoint city) stops us from sending units overland to pillage the rubber and salt.

Now a plan (for atleast 1 turn)

Let's slow refining down to 2 turns versus 1 turn. This will gain us enough gold to Investigate the Barb Stronghold. Once we see how many units are inside the city we can then decide on a course of action, ie. attack the Stronghold or continue the flanking towards the chokepoint. It costs 136 gold to investigate the city, which is much cheaper than trying to steal their military plans.

Let's also try to find out if these BCT have lethal bombarb. I'd wake 3 of the 4 infantry SW of Bling and leave a single infantry in the open and see if we can draw the BCT's fire on it.

They have 38 cities and only 120 infantry, on average that means 3 per city (38x3=114) so once we see how many are in the Stronghold it should be easier to craft a plan.

If the BCT do not have lethal bombardment than placing the northern flank city (by the lake) brings 2 of the BCT into our artillery range, allowing us to breach their fort and stage our troops on their iron hill outside the city.

If possible I'd push for taking out the Stronghold as the AI's tend to turtle once they lose their capital.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

@ Scout - Your chart shows bombardment from only two tiles away. They have three tile bombard. But the point is, we can hit those two tiles away from us. That would start to put a serious hurt on them.

I like the rubber army pillaging idea (Double Deuce)

We have better resupply on the northern rockpile when we have rails.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, from reading your posts, I will do as Gator suggests and go forward a turn and check the Barb Stronghold. Will post in a few minutes.

Seems like the consensus is to go for the Stronghold and send TF Double Duece on a pillaging mission.

Be back shortly!!

 

[DJMGator13]

Seems like the consensus is to go for the Stronghold and send TF Double Duece on a pillaging mission.

The TF DD can't get there by land.

 

[leif erikson]

The TF DD can't get there by land.

It can if I send a fleet of 6 MoW there to bombard the city and the Armies take it out. Perhaps I should take a couple of Galleons in case I have to go around it?

Here is the Barb Stronghold:

 

[DJMGator13]

Wow, almost 10% of their infantry in the 1 city and as suspected the other 2 cannons. I think we may want to pursue the pillaging and flanking strategy and slowly whittle away at the Stronghold instead of a full headon attack. We may also want to pillage a ring around their capital to remove resources from a nearly 100spt city. If we can get a tech advantage the capital will fall under a "Shock and Awe" type campaign once we get bombers.

@Leif - your CivAssisst icon is right over the number of rubbern sources, were you able to confirm that they only possess 1 source? That is all I saw on the map, I checked the islands also.

Let's see what the others think.

 

[leif erikson]

Wow, almost 10% of their infantry in the 1 city and as suspected the other 2 cannons. I think we may want to pursue the pillaging and flanking strategy and slowly whittle away at the Stronghold instead of a full headon attack. We may also want to pillage a ring around their capital to remove resources from a nearly 100spt city. If we can get a tech advantage the capital will fall under a "Shock and Awe" type campaign once we get bombers.

@Leif - your CivAssisst icon is right over the number of rubbern sources, were you able to confirm that they only possess 1 source? That is all I saw on the map, I checked the islands also.

Sorry, forgot to close CivAssist2, so I did not confirm by looking at the city screen.

You know, the other way to skin this cat is razing cities with Lux resources. He has only 1 Ivory, 1 Wine and 1 of something else I can't recognize at the moment. Find those cities and make them objectives and it'll cost him dearly to keep those cities happy!! I'm doing a map check now...

 

[Sir Bugsy]

The barbs are not going to have happy problems. They have a temple, cathedral, and a market.

I think we should go right at the stronghold. Get a city within range. Bombard those cannon and then take them out with an army. Once you have the cannon off the mountains on one side you can move a SOD onto one of the mountains along with artillery and reduce the defenders to red.