ShannonCT
Deity
I wouldn't want to delay a 4th worker for very long, just long enough to make fast use of the rice, corn, cows, and seafood. If an improved food tile is sitting unused for several turns, something is wrong.
SGOTM 10 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I wouldn't want to delay a 4th worker for very long, just long enough to make fast use of the rice, corn, cows, and seafood. If an improved food tile is sitting unused for several turns, something is wrong.
Grover22
Monarch-like
I'd cleared all the forests around St Pete, and I'd chopped the silk forest around moscow to build the plantation. St. Pete was a handful of turns away from National Epic.
It may be interesting to note that I got circum on turn 49 by building a single caravel and not trading for or purchasing or demanding any maps from the AI. And that single caravel went the wrong way at first when it hit the big continent with China and the other civs. I hit near the southern edge of it and went north for three turns or so before retracing my steps and sailing around to the south.
It may be interesting to note that I got circum on turn 49 by building a single caravel and not trading for or purchasing or demanding any maps from the AI. And that single caravel went the wrong way at first when it hit the big continent with China and the other civs. I hit near the southern edge of it and went north for three turns or so before retracing my steps and sailing around to the south.
ShannonCT
Deity
I got circumnavigation by first sailing east and meeting Justinian. I bought his map for ~100 gold and saw that he had explored all the way to the east coast of the large continent. I then turned the caravel west to connect to that coast.
The AI doesn't have much gold for trade at the beginning of the game. I noticed though that giving away the world map after circumnavigation gets +4 relations with most AI for "Our trade relations have been fair and forthright." This is a great deal. The only other way to get such a bonus would be to give away a tech.
"It may be interesting to note that I got circum on turn 49 by building a single caravel and not trading for or purchasing or demanding any maps from the AI. " Afraid we can't count on this. I just got to 1485 in my test and the Romans got circumnavigation of that turn. I had caravels out, but had been casually exploring as they went (and was attacked by a barb galley and took three turns to stop and heal) -- learned a valuable lesson.
Congrats to CP and SCT on WOTM24. 
Just published.
Thanks for playing and hope you enjoyed yourselves.
Off to REX Challenge...
Just published.
Thanks for playing and hope you enjoyed yourselves.
Off to REX Challenge...
ShannonCT
Deity
Congrats to CP and SCT on WOTM24.
Just published.
Thanks for playing and hope you enjoyed yourselves.
Should be congrats to CP and condolences to SCT.
I deserve a 
for my capital location.Thanks for the game Leif.
Did enjoy it, leif (much more than getting beat to the copper in GOTM45, so I had no chance). X-team did well all around.
Been a while since I won one, and I'm going to savor it. Don't think I'll outscore SCT very often when he is of a mind to milk.
Notice you got to Biology, SCT. The Dom'n. limit jump up and bite you?
Plan to post test results at 1605 later tonight.
Been a while since I won one, and I'm going to savor it. Don't think I'll outscore SCT very often when he is of a mind to milk.
Notice you got to Biology, SCT. The Dom'n. limit jump up and bite you?
Plan to post test results at 1605 later tonight.
ShannonCT
Deity
I guess I went for Biology before Astronomy. I got it in 1202AD. That means my older cities would have had plenty of time to max out population by the time I hit the domination limit. From what I remember, I didn't try to delay domination in order to milk. I was trying for fast domination and gold and ended up with neither. I wonder how many more points I would have gotten playing Prince instead of Noble.
Yes, 1655 AD for me too. I had the cities build but took a while to get the pop caught up.
It is great fun to plan, and run, a game and get to see XTeamer's do so well.
Now, let's ace this one...
Played test to 1605, not optimally by any means (practically ignored diplomacy), but gives a good projection of results from settling on ivory and S of rice with multiple forest chops (though four still standing in capital).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=224390&stc=1&d=1250145762
Did not reach all criteria: missed circumnavigation (overcompensated, based on what I thought was excessive exploration in earlier test, but not so sure now); and pop only 35 (but with three more citizens due next turn and all cities growing well)
Exceeded others: Founded 7 cities and quickly enough to take over the southern island before barbs settled there (ability to do that may be best reason to consider this approach, as it may better allow us to settle over a larger area, regardless of the nature of the map); completed Chemistry; built NE about 1590 and gained second GE -- on turn Chem came in -- that was immediately put towards Steel, which is now about half researched;
Looks like, compared to SCT, I sacrificed growth for hammers and a little extra research, completing NE and building additional settler, worker, 2 galleys, a maceman (turned out not to be needed on the southern island); also built a second explorer but lost him to barbs, along with a spy that was outed
Found that late contact with AI negated map buying, presumably because their maps had gotten big (wanted Gunpowder for world map).
City on ivory will be a nice GP farm. (Had I not whipped settler for 7th city there, would have taken even more advantage of it.)
Noted very late that we get double production from barracks. Should we not plan to take advantage of this by chopping multiple forests simultaneously for gold if we come across a city site that has several forests but too few to justify a NP? The silver city in the saved game would seem well suited for this.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=224390&stc=1&d=1250145762
Did not reach all criteria: missed circumnavigation (overcompensated, based on what I thought was excessive exploration in earlier test, but not so sure now); and pop only 35 (but with three more citizens due next turn and all cities growing well)
Exceeded others: Founded 7 cities and quickly enough to take over the southern island before barbs settled there (ability to do that may be best reason to consider this approach, as it may better allow us to settle over a larger area, regardless of the nature of the map); completed Chemistry; built NE about 1590 and gained second GE -- on turn Chem came in -- that was immediately put towards Steel, which is now about half researched;
Looks like, compared to SCT, I sacrificed growth for hammers and a little extra research, completing NE and building additional settler, worker, 2 galleys, a maceman (turned out not to be needed on the southern island); also built a second explorer but lost him to barbs, along with a spy that was outed
Found that late contact with AI negated map buying, presumably because their maps had gotten big (wanted Gunpowder for world map).
City on ivory will be a nice GP farm. (Had I not whipped settler for 7th city there, would have taken even more advantage of it.)
Noted very late that we get double production from barracks. Should we not plan to take advantage of this by chopping multiple forests simultaneously for gold if we come across a city site that has several forests but too few to justify a NP? The silver city in the saved game would seem well suited for this.
Frederiksberg
Deity
Played a bit with the save yesterday trying to figure out how to get Biology as fast as possible. Early GS's can only be used for an Academy since Education is not on the Bio beeline. The problem I had in my test is that Education also comes before Printing Press so we need a GM as the 3rd or 4th GP. One possible route to follow is to set research to zero switch to Pacifism and our religion. We want the first GE in the GP farm 2nd GE in the Capital and then either a GM or a GS for Academy followed by a GM for PP (Both in GP farm that should have NP by now. After that a couple of GS's for SciMeth and finally self research of Bio running science slider at 100% burning all the saved gold.
There are two problems with this plan. First it's not clear if the GP farm has enough hammers to build a market for running merchants. This could be circumvented by switching to Caste but we may not be done with REX'ing at that moment so it may require additional anarchy to switch back and forth between slavery and Caste. One solution is to whip a market even though this goes against the principles for fast REX'ing (i.e. whipping only settlers and workers). Second problem is the time it takes to research Bio without any bulbing.
The AI seems to tech surprisingly slow. No one had PP when I was done with Chemistry so waiting for trades is probably too slow.
Regarding circumnavigation I went west with a single caravel, met Augustus caravel, bought his map for 50 gold and got all I needed to complete
. I guess this was pure luck. Despite adopting a religion it was possible to get open borders and trade relations with 3 out of the 5 AI.
There are two problems with this plan. First it's not clear if the GP farm has enough hammers to build a market for running merchants. This could be circumvented by switching to Caste but we may not be done with REX'ing at that moment so it may require additional anarchy to switch back and forth between slavery and Caste. One solution is to whip a market even though this goes against the principles for fast REX'ing (i.e. whipping only settlers and workers). Second problem is the time it takes to research Bio without any bulbing.
The AI seems to tech surprisingly slow. No one had PP when I was done with Chemistry so waiting for trades is probably too slow.
Regarding circumnavigation I went west with a single caravel, met Augustus caravel, bought his map for 50 gold and got all I needed to complete
. I guess this was pure luck. Despite adopting a religion it was possible to get open borders and trade relations with 3 out of the 5 AI.
ShannonCT
Deity
CP, I'll have to have a look at your save when I get home. One comment about barracks. In 3.19, gold overflow no longer gets production bonuses.
Fred, why not research most of PP to start, bulb GEs into Gunpowder and Chem, finish PP, bulb 1 GS into SciMeth, then research Bio. SciMeth has higher GS bulb priority than Education. I think we can't get a lot of early GPs anyway without sacraficing REX.
Fred, why not research most of PP to start, bulb GEs into Gunpowder and Chem, finish PP, bulb 1 GS into SciMeth, then research Bio. SciMeth has higher GS bulb priority than Education. I think we can't get a lot of early GPs anyway without sacraficing REX.
ShannonCT
Deity
I took one more shot at the challenge last night, again with capital on desert hill and GP farm on plains hill, just to try running HR first (posted below). Here's a comparison of this new game vs. CP's game:
SCT built:
6 cities
45 pop
8 warriors
2 caravels
8 workers
4 libraries
2 monasteries
1 GE
1 turn from Chem
CP built:
7 cities
35 pop
9 warriors
9 workers
2 galleys
2 caravels
1 explorer
1 maceman
1 spy
2 libraries
1 monastery
1 National Epic
2 GEs
40% of Steel
CP's extra units cost about 35 hammers more than my extra buildings. Plus CP has National Epic finished, while mine is only half done. This probably accounts for him getting a second GP faster. The extra settler and worker he built would cost me 5 whipped population.
SCT built:
6 cities
45 pop
8 warriors
2 caravels
8 workers
4 libraries
2 monasteries
1 GE
1 turn from Chem
CP built:
7 cities
35 pop
9 warriors
9 workers
2 galleys
2 caravels
1 explorer
1 maceman
1 spy
2 libraries
1 monastery
1 National Epic
2 GEs
40% of Steel
CP's extra units cost about 35 hammers more than my extra buildings. Plus CP has National Epic finished, while mine is only half done. This probably accounts for him getting a second GP faster. The extra settler and worker he built would cost me 5 whipped population.
Frederiksberg
Deity
ShannonCT said:
Yes, it's something we could try. The problem with this strategy is that we won't have a huge pile of gold we can burn when we are done with PP and ready for Bio so research of Bio will take longer time. In my test the influence on REX wasn't that big and I could easily get 6 cities before 1600 AD but not with as much pop as mentioned in the challenge I think (don't remember exactly). I more or less whipped settlers as often as I could (need pop 12 except in the capital) but I was running a bit low on workers for a while.
Frederiksberg
Deity
I also adopted HR first and put a Monastery in the Capital. The 10% extra research there is quite nice and it gives the capital something to build (missionaries) while waiting to grow to pop 10 when a settler can be whipped. I could do this because Judaism auto spread quite fast to the Capital - don't know if we can count on this to happen.
Regarding the debate about border expansion - have you all noticed that we can build culture for the first few turns and get it fast that way. No urgent need for missionaries.
Regarding the debate about border expansion - have you all noticed that we can build culture for the first few turns and get it fast that way. No urgent need for missionaries.
ShannonCT
Deity
I completely forgot about culture building. Great tip Fred!
Great job testing.
I had a look this morning as well. While there is much food in CP's St. Petersburg, I do not see how it can keep up with 10 free specialists provided by National Park. I agree it will take a while to get set up, but it provides us a much stronger position for pumping out Great People.
I'm pretty much sold on St. Petersburg being built on the Plains Hill. Your comparison shows that we can still REX and we have, it seems to me, greater potential ahead.
There remain some questions concerning tech path and civics changes to maximize our production and use of great people, but it seems that NP/NE has a lot going for it.
I had a look this morning as well. While there is much food in CP's St. Petersburg, I do not see how it can keep up with 10 free specialists provided by National Park. I agree it will take a while to get set up, but it provides us a much stronger position for pumping out Great People.
I'm pretty much sold on St. Petersburg being built on the Plains Hill. Your comparison shows that we can still REX and we have, it seems to me, greater potential ahead.
There remain some questions concerning tech path and civics changes to maximize our production and use of great people, but it seems that NP/NE has a lot going for it.
Frederiksberg
Deity
I agree with leifs conclusion. I think SCT's test game with NE and NP in the plains hill city show that a strong NP city is essential to tech speed.
In order to maximize the advantage I think we should test how to reach Biology as fast as possible. I think it should be possible without sacrificing much of the REX but it probably means that we must adopt Pacifism and religion early.
In order to maximize the advantage I think we should test how to reach Biology as fast as possible. I think it should be possible without sacrificing much of the REX but it probably means that we must adopt Pacifism and religion early.
ShannonCT
Deity
Once we know who all the AI are, it will be easier to decide when to adopt a religion. The best strategy I can see right now without knowing which AI we will meet is to gift maps and get open borders and resource trades going with every possible AI ASAP, and then adopt a religion with Caste/Pacifism (if REXing is done). The idea is to keep AI at least at Cautious. Almost all AI will tech trade at Cautious (exceptions are Ragnar, Shaka, and Toku).
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