SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

"I could do this because Judaism auto spread quite fast to the Capital - don't know if we can count on this to happen." Happened quickly every time I tested, though the tests were all from SCT's creations. Never had religion spread to any other of my cities except via missionaries.

I, too, missed the culture-build option -- starting in mid-game makes old habits dangerous. Wondering how many missionaries it's smart to build early. Monastery probably still makes sense, though less pressing.

Starting on the ivory and S of the rice is a bit better for rexing and early GP production. Not much doubt that the rexing advantage would be lasting, though the nature of the map will determine how significant. Question is whether the initial GP production and hence research advantage is indeed not a lasting advantage. The lack of early trade options and the need to gain the early techs unilaterally makes me cautious to conclude that NP is undoubtedly much better. Getting a tech lead early might be leverageable when trading starts in earnest. Haven't gotten that far in a game. What do others who have think?

 

[PaulisKhan]

Grats Shannon on the new HoF deity spot! In the space of just a few updates I've gone from top of the list to second last
It's awesome that people are playing more space games!

I'm pricing new computers at the moment, will try and get back into it soon.

 

[ShannonCT]

I, too, missed the culture-build option -- starting in mid-game makes old habits dangerous. Wondering how many missionaries it's smart to build early. Monastery probably still makes sense, though less pressing.

Missionaries seem a lot less urgent now that I know we can build culture. They're only really needed when we switch to Pacifism in cities that can support enough specialists to get a GP. I would prioritize a library in St. Pete instead of monastery now, to speed up National Epic.

Starting on the ivory and S of the rice is a bit better for rexing and early GP production. Not much doubt that the rexing advantage would be lasting, though the nature of the map will determine how significant. Question is whether the initial GP production and hence research advantage is indeed not a lasting advantage. The lack of early trade options and the need to gain the early techs unilaterally makes me cautious to conclude that NP is undoubtedly much better. Getting a tech lead early might be leverageable when trading starts in earnest. Haven't gotten that far in a game. What do others who have think?

I'm not sure why you conclude your start was better for REXing. I thought my 10 extra population would suggest the opposite. The only reason I didn't have more cities was because the goal for the challenge was 6.

Your research advantage comes from the earlier 2nd GP. It doesn't look like there's much difference in other beakers. I don't know if you got your 2nd GP earlier because you built the NE in St. Pete much before 1605AD (thus risking a Great Artist), or if you were running some scientists along with the engineer. I built an early monastery in St. Pete because I thought missionaries were more important than they are and I didn't want to keep waiting for religion to spread to Moscow. If I had skipped the monastery in St. Pete and went for an earlier library, I could have gotten more GPPs at the expense of some population. I could also speed up the National Epic by chopping a couple forests in St. Pete where they are most likely to grow back.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Missionaries seem a lot less urgent now that I know we can build culture. They're only really needed when we switch to Pacifism in cities that can support enough specialists to get a GP. I would prioritize a library in St. Pete instead of monastery now, to speed up National Epic. Concur.

I'm not sure why you conclude your start was better for REXing. I thought my 10 extra population would suggest the opposite. The only reason I didn't have more cities was because the goal for the challenge was 6. I was comparing your first(?) attempt with mine (suspect there's a steep learning curve), and didn't think you suggested the challenge until you had played the test, implying that six cities was what you ended up with, not what you aimed for. Looks to me that I could catch up to 40 population (or close to it) quickly with the extra city kicking in, and I had significantly more land area covered, thus my conclusion.

Your research advantage comes from the earlier 2nd GP. It doesn't look like there's much difference in other beakers. I don't know if you got your 2nd GP earlier because you built the NE in St. Pete much before 1605AD (thus risking a Great Artist), or if you were running some scientists along with the engineer. Both, and I think this is the way to go once the switch to Caste is made.I built an early monastery in St. Pete because I thought missionaries were more important than they are and I didn't want to keep waiting for religion to spread to Moscow. Interesting . . . religion spread to Moscow very quickly for me every test.If I had skipped the monastery in St. Pete and went for an earlier library, I could have gotten more GPPs at the expense of some population. I could also speed up the National Epic by chopping a couple forests in St. Pete where they are most likely to grow back. I think this chopping is a good trade off.

I'm confident that the ivory/rice start does provide a rexing advantage, but if you're convinced that you could have gotten as many GP's as quickly and thus been equal in research, then the potential inherent in NP does indeed argue strongly for that approach.

BTW, curious when I looked at your save as to why you built two additional libraries so early. Thought there were better things to do. Suspect I missed something.

 

[ShannonCT]

I found a useful post about the mechanics of "We don't want to start trading away this technology just yet", which is the most common reason given by the AI for not trading a tech.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7642274&postcount=12

The upshot is that the more units, buildings, and wonders a tech unlocks, the less likely the AI is to trade it. A tech that unlocks no units, buildings, or wonders (like Liberalism) should never be withheld as long as one meets the AI's minimum attitude for trading.

Techs that unlock world wonders may be withheld because of "We have our reasons" if the AI is building a world wonder unlocked by that tech (like Nationalism).

Education will be moderately easy to trade for because it unlocks the university, the Korean Seowan, and Oxford, but no units. Astro will be harder to trade for because it unlocks the observatory, galleon, privateer, frigate, and ship of the line.

 

[leif erikson]

Just completed a test game on the run to Biology. Got it on turn 103 - 1740 AD.

Knowing how I play, I'm sure you guys could probably get it 10 turns earlier...

I got a Great Merchant instead of a Great Scientist and was a bit upset until I realized that a trade mission could net enough gold to research Biology at 100%, since it seems it cannot be bulbed. Traded for Education and built both a University and an Academy in Moscow. Also, used a Great Scientist for a Golden age and changed to Caste and Pacifism in one turn and adopted religion the next without missing a beat.

Those great people come fast without NP. Yikes, what will happen with NP.

 

[ShannonCT]

BTW, curious when I looked at your save as to why you built two additional libraries so early. Thought there were better things to do. Suspect I missed something.

Yeah, we might need galleys or land units more than we need those libraries.

 

[rrau]

Sorry, I didn't get a chance to do the challenge. I may be pretty unavailable soon. Just took dad to ER yesterday and he has a brain tumor. Mom's gone, so it's just up to me....All my siblings live out of state.

 

[leif erikson]

Sorry, I didn't get a chance to do the challenge. I may be pretty unavailable soon. Just took dad to ER yesterday and he has a brain tumor. Mom's gone, so it's just up to me....All my siblings live out of state.

Sorry to hear this.
Please take whatever time is needed. Dad is much more important than a game.

I hope and pray that it all comes out for the best.

Please take care of yourself too.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Wish you well, rrau.

 

[leif erikson]

Check-in time.

I think we agree (?) that Moscow should be on the Desert Hill and that St. Petersburg should be on the Plains Hill with the goal of building NE/NP in this city, preserving as many forests as possible in St. Petersburg's BFC.

Initial Civics chosen should be HR, Bureaucracy, Slavery and Merc.

Initial goal is to REX. We also should aggressively recon our surrounding area for city placement options for fast expansion. This includes achieving Circumnavigation.

I think the only questions we haven't really decided yet are tech path and great people management. I think we have two immediate goals in tech path. The first is to Biology and a secondary one is then to get Communism. Beelining Biology and trading up to Liberalism worked in my test.

I started research on Printing Press at 80% to maintain enough Gold for Map buying for circumnavigation. One thing we could do is try for a Great Merchant for a trade mission in order to have plenty of Gold to support researching Biology at 100%.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Just completed a test game on the run to Biology. Got it on turn 103 - 1740 AD.

Knowing how I play, I'm sure you guys could probably get it 10 turns earlier...

I got a Great Merchant instead of a Great Scientist and was a bit upset until I realized that a trade mission could net enough gold to research Biology at 100%, since it seems it cannot be bulbed. Traded for Education and built both a University and an Academy in Moscow. Also, used a Great Scientist for a Golden age and changed to Caste and Pacifism in one turn and adopted religion the next without missing a beat.

Nice to have a date to try to improve on. My guess is that we can improve by more than 10 turns . Can you explain which techs you bulbed and which you traded for or self researched? And when did you change civics to Pacifism/adopt religion.

Using a GS for a golden age early in the game is probably not the best course. We get 2200 beakers from bulbing and I dont think you get the same amount of extra hammers+gold from an early golden age

Once we know who all the AI are, it will be easier to decide when to adopt a religion. The best strategy I can see right now without knowing which AI we will meet is to gift maps and get open borders and resource trades going with every possible AI ASAP, and then adopt a religion with Caste/Pacifism (if REXing is done). The idea is to keep AI at least at Cautious. Almost all AI will tech trade at Cautious (exceptions are Ragnar, Shaka, and Toku).

I understand the problem with keeping trade relations but I don't think we can afford the luxury of waiting until we know the AI. This will take many turns during which we only build GP points half speed. The rush to Biology can basically be boiled down to how fast we can generate 2 GE's, 1 GM, 1 GS and then self research Bio using saved gold (this is at least my tentative plan). Of course this has to be achieved while still REX'ing that is whipping settlers at size 12.

If adopting early religion creates problems with trade relations I think we can deal with this. Giving away our map early can give us some diplomatic points and probably ensure that we can set op open borders and resource trades quite early. We don't need to trade any techs before we have Biology and with a tech lead we have options to improve relations by gifting techs. Worst case we could drop our state religion for a while just before Bio is done and do trades in that interval.

I will try to do a test game during the weekend to determine the feasibility of the rush to Biology.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we agree (?) that Moscow should be on the Desert Hill and that St. Petersburg should be on the Plains Hill with the goal of building NE/NP in this city, preserving as many forests as possible in St. Petersburg's BFC.

Initial Civics chosen should be HR, Bureaucracy, Slavery and Merc.

Initial goal is to REX. We also should aggressively recon our surrounding area for city placement options for fast expansion. This includes achieving Circumnavigation.

I think the only questions we haven't really decided yet are tech path and great people management. I think we have two immediate goals in tech path. The first is to Biology and a secondary one is then to get Communism. Beelining Biology and trading up to Liberalism worked in my test.

I agree with all of this. Before we can move on we have to determine if adopting Pacifism and a religion as soon as we found a religion is the best path because this is also inside the first turn set.

I started research on Printing Press at 80% to maintain enough Gold for Map buying for circumnavigation. One thing we could do is try for a Great Merchant for a trade mission in order to have plenty of Gold to support researching Biology at 100%.

This is an interesting alternative to bulbing PP with a GM. Does anyone know how much gold we get from the trade mission compared to the amount of beakers we get from bulbing?

 

[leif erikson]

Nice to have a date to try to improve on. My guess is that we can improve by more than 10 turns . Can you explain which techs you bulbed and which you traded for or self researched? And when did you change civics to Pacifism/adopt religion.

Researched:
Printing Press - completed in 1535
Gunpowder - bulbed and completed in 1550
Chemistry - completed in 1680
Scientific Method - bulbed and completed in 1708
Bioliogy - completed in 1738

Traded:
Education in 1665
Liberalism and Nationalism in 1738

Great People:
Great Engineer - 1465 - used to bulb Gunpowder
Great Scientist - 1595 - used for Golden Age
Great Merchant - 1655 - used for Trade Mission
Great Scientist - 1700 - used to bulb Scientific Method
Great Scientist - 1718 - used to build Academy in Moscow to push Biology

Civics:
HR, Bur., Slavery and Merc at start.
Caste and Pacifism at 1605
Adopt religion on 1610

Built Library and the National Epic in St. Petersburg between Settlers to allow the pop to recover from rushing. It was completed fairly early, but can't remember exact date.

Using a GS for a golden age early in the game is probably not the best course. We get 2200 beakers from bulbing and I dont think you get the same amount of extra hammers+gold from an early golden age

I'm sure you are correct. Did this to be able to change civics and religion without anarchy, saving two turns.

If adopting early religion creates problems with trade relations I think we can deal with this. Giving away our map early can give us some diplomatic points and probably ensure that we can set op open borders and resource trades quite early. We don't need to trade any techs before we have Biology and with a tech lead we have options to improve relations by gifting techs. Worst case we could drop our state religion for a while just before Bio is done and do trades in that interval.

Trading, or gifting, Maps proved to be a good deal. Also traded for resources.
Izzie wasn't trading anything...

I will try to do a test game during the weekend to determine the feasibility of the rush to Biology.

Look forward to your report.
One thing to watch. Once you have Printing Press, a Great Engineer will bulb Replaceable Parts instead of Gunpowder.
I may give it another shot. Planning Great People is an interesting exercise, especially given a polluted gene pool.

 

[leif erikson]

I agree with all of this. Before we can move on we have to determine if adopting Pacifism and a religion as soon as we found a religion is the best path because this is also inside the first turn set.

I think we can adopt it earlier, but here is the question. What we cannot adopt earlier is Caste, at least until our REX is well underway or nearly completed. We could change to Pacifism earlier, then a religion and then Caste later. Seems like an awful lot of lost turns though?

This is an interesting alternative to bulbing PP with a GM. Does anyone know how much gold we get from the trade mission compared to the amount of beakers we get from bulbing?

The amount of Gold was between 1600 and 1700. Sorry, can't remember exactly. I think it was around 1638.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we can adopt it earlier, but here is the question. What we cannot adopt earlier is Caste, at least until our REX is well underway or nearly completed. We could change to Pacifism earlier, then a religion and then Caste later. Seems like an awful lot of lost turns though?

The difference between adopting Caste and Pacifism simultaneously or at different times is one extra turn of anarchy. This is surely not an awful lot

The amount of Gold was between 1600 and 1700. Sorry, can't remember exactly. I think it was around 1638.

I think SCT found that bulbing gives ~1550 beakers with a GM. So the trade mission is slightly better.

Researched:
Printing Press - completed in 1535
Gunpowder - bulbed and completed in 1550
Chemistry - completed in 1680
Scientific Method - bulbed and completed in 1708
Bioliogy - completed in 1738

I think there is reason to believe that bulbing 4 techs instead of just two will result in a much improved date for Bio.

A 3rd strategy could be to self research Gunpowder, bulb Chemistry with the GE, PP with a GM and SciMeth with a GS. Don't know if it's feasible to produce GE-GS-GM-GM where the last GM is for a trade mission to get cash for Bio research.

 

[ShannonCT]

I think we can improve on your Biology date by 10-15 turns with something like this:

1) Start researching PP until it's 1 turn from completion, then put a few turns into Gunpowder
2) Build an early library in St. Pete
3) After Moscow gets the first GE, hire 2 scientists in St. Pete in addition to the engineer
4) Use Moscow's GE to finish Gunpowder, then start on Chem
5) St Pete's first GP will be born 15 turns after Moscow's, with ~66% chance of GE. If it's a GE, bulb the rest of Chem. If it's a GS, self-research Chem and save the GS.
6) All subsequent GPs from Moscow and St. Pete should have a high chance of being GSs (fire the engineers). If we can find another high-food city, we can look to get another GS from it as well.
7) We can use 1 GS on SciMeth and finish with self-research. Then use 1 GS on Astro and finish with self-research. Then use 2 GSs on Physics and get a free GS. Then use 2 GSs on Biology.

With an extra GP farm and a fast National Epic in St. Pete, bulbing our way to Biology can be faster than self-research. And this will let us put beakers toward the Communism and Assembly Line paths, techs that can't be bulbed with GSs.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Caste and Pacifism at 1605
Adopt religion on 1610"
That these dates are way too late seems to be inherent in the subsequent discussion. Right?

SCT, when do you propose we finish PP?

 

[Mad Professor]

Check-in time.

I think we agree (?) that Moscow should be on the Desert Hill and that St. Petersburg should be on the Plains Hill with the goal of building NE/NP in this city, preserving as many forests as possible in St. Petersburg's BFC.

Initial Civics chosen should be HR, Bureaucracy, Slavery and Merc.

Initial goal is to REX. We also should aggressively recon our surrounding area for city placement options for fast expansion. This includes achieving Circumnavigation.

Looks good to me. I've had a good time looking through those saves that have been posted. Sorry I didn't contribute one. My BtS skills still coming up to speed. Definitely on the improve though

 

[leif erikson]

There is also the possibility of starting out with Pacifism instead of HR and adopting a religion as soon as it is founded. HR is not really necessary for a short while and then we can switch to HR. With double the rate of GE development, we should get 2 before the gene pools are very diluted?

When I was trying things out, I tried to keep anarchy turns to a minimum.

An early GMerchant for Printing Press is going to be fairly difficult, I think?