SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

Haven't seen the save yet.

If there is little space left on our island I'm inclined to build a galley fairly soon. We need to explore if there are any accessible islands nearby that we can settle. I think we should let the caravel explore without delay so that circumnavigation is not put at risk.

What can we achieve from a war on Gandhi given that we can't capture any cities?

City sites, uranium, possibly a worker.

 

[Frederiksberg]

In my experience the AI will continue to build settlers and found cities even during wartime. Are you considering capturing settlers?

Uranium must be either abundant or placed in the starting location (or both) otherwise the game is impossible to win. I don't expect problems there.

Worker stealing would be a way to keep Gandhi backward. The question is if this is good or bad? Do we want him as a trading partner until Fission/Rocketry or do we want to keep him weak until we can attack?

 

[Cactus Pete]

In my experience the AI will continue to build settlers and found cities even during wartime. Are you considering capturing settlers? Yes, especially once the horses are hooked up. Would hope he behaves just as you predict -- that's an extra worker(s), and, if he is building settlers, then he is not threatening us and we can continue to develop efficiently.

Uranium must be either abundant or placed in the starting location (or both) otherwise the game is impossible to win. I don't expect problems there. You are probably right (and if not?), but if it is abundant, then there is some potential gain here as well.

Worker stealing would be a way to keep Gandhi backward. The question is if this is good or bad? Do we want him as a trading partner until Fission/Rocketry or do we want to keep him weak until we can attack?

Strategy would be to keep him backwards until we settle where we want to and hopefully gain a worker or two, then get friendly and trade. Presume he will also continue to research during war time. He should still trade with us after peace but not sure how useful a trading partner.

 

[PaulisKhan]

A worker steal or two from gandhi could be worth quite a lot. Could someone please put up a screenshot or two of the land =)

 

[ShannonCT]

Here you go PK:

 

[ShannonCT]

Some notes about Gandhi:

Base attitude: 2 (hidden +2 diplo modifier)
Base Peaceweight: 10 (very peaceful)
Espionage Weight: 50 (very low espionage spending)
Tech Trade Known Percent: 20 (will trade techs easily)
Tech Refuse Attitude: None (will trade at any attitude if we aren't his worst enemy)
WFYABTA tech limit: 15
Build Unit Probability: 15 (very low)
Strategic Resource Trade: Cautious or above
Health/Happiness Resource Trade: Any Attitude
Map Trade: Any Attitude
Open Borders: Any Attitude
Favorite Civic: Universal Suffrage
Flavor: Culture
Declare War Probabilities: Friendly 0%, Pleased 0%, Cautious 30%, Annoyed 80%

All told, Gandhi is a very peaceful AI and one on whom you can declare war and still trade with later, because of the +2 hidden diplo and low attitude requirements. One thing to remember though is that on the Aggressive AI setting, AI will build more units than normal.

Knights would be a good unit to use for some worker/settler stealing. Moscow's first settler could settle to pick up horses. We might be able to build a couple knights before Gandhi sends out a settler.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Cheers.

Looks like we don't have much of a choice in the matter. I think we need to declare war on Gandhi just to get enough of our own cities up and running.
Don't see any other way to get the level of production required to build an army AND nukes.

 

[ShannonCT]

Some possible city sites:

1) On grass hill to grab 2 fish on northern peninsula
2) 2 cities in the south to grab crab, horse, 2 fur, 2 fish, iron, silver
3) Near copper to grab copper, crab, 2 fur
4) Near western cow

I'm thinking about a city near the wheat but I'm worried that with Gandhi's cheap GEs, he's going to wonder spam Delhi and the wheat will be unusable.

I'm betting that there's also some decent land on nearby islands to the east that should be easy for us to settle first.

 

[Mad Professor]

Nasty surprise to have Gandhi so close when Rexing is so important.

Some possible city sites:

1) On grass hill to grab 2 fish on northern peninsula

Yes - the amount of food resources around there allows good cities despite four tile overlap - plenty of food. This city not enough though - me *must* go south as well which means slowing up Gandhi's expansion.

2) 2 cities in the south to grab crab, horse, 2 fur, 2 fish, iron, silver

Yes. Handy spots to beat Gandhi to. Worth making an effort to make sure he doesn't get there

I'm betting that there's also some decent land on nearby islands to the east that should be easy for us to settle first.

Yes. I wonder how much the caravel can see on the way past to the circumnavigation task? If not much because of the importance of circumnavigating, then a galley should be built sometime fairly soon. Seeing the Chinese (?) culture to the north gives me the feeling we may be in for some competition for city spots in more places than our own island unless we move quickly. This looks like a challenge.

 

[Mad Professor]

Some notes about Gandhi:

All told, Gandhi is a very peaceful AI and one on whom you can declare war and still trade with later, because of the +2 hidden diplo and low attitude requirements. One thing to remember though is that on the Aggressive AI setting, AI will build more units than normal.

Knights would be a good unit to use for some worker/settler stealing. Moscow's first settler could settle to pick up horses. We might be able to build a couple knights before Gandhi sends out a settler.

Yes - the trick is to balance the unexpected need for early military units like knights with planned rexing. Failure to build the military units will mean that Gandhi will slow our rexing though, so the military units are still an important part of us getting the necessary city spots.

 

[ShannonCT]

Before we go much further, we need to at least consider declaring war on Ghandi before he hooks up a metal (or even the ivory) in order to keep him from settling our island (and perhaps monopolizing the uranium). How about testing what happens if we declare and send longbows into his territory? Do we want to take the time to send our explorer in his territory to get some info for the test?

I don't see the use in declaring war just to stop Gandhi from hooking resources. We should only declare once, because multiple declarations will make trading difficult. If we can find an opportunity to capture a settler, it should set him back enough to give us the best sites on the continent.

In our test game, the earliest the AI settled a third city was T34. We might be able to get a single knight near the area south of Delhi around T34, but I bet Gandhi will build his third city to the north to hook iron. A more likely scenario for settler stealing would happen around T40-60 when Gandhi starts looking to settle land to the south and west. We could have a couple knights ready and maybe an Xbow/Pike pair to defend against an elephants, pikes, or macemen.

Our explorer is too far away to get on the caravel, unless we want to delay its building. What about quickly chopping the forest SW of Moscow either to build another explorer or another lb (and wait for the explorer)?

When I saw the land stretching out to the west, I wanted to explore it as quickly as possible to help identify good city sites. If it weren't for Gandhi, there wouldn't have been so much urgency. The caravel voyage would be delayed 1-2 turns waiting for the explorer to get back. We could accept the delay, or build another explorer, or forget about putting a unit on the caravel. The initial logic behind putting an explorer on the caravel was to help contact AI on the Big continent. Now that we already know the locations of 2 AI, maybe it's not so important to fill the caravel. Or maybe we will meet an AI to the east that will sell us a big chunk of map to the east, letting us turn back west to pick up the explorer. I'm reluctant to build another explorer when other builds are needed.

 

[ShannonCT]

I just looked at the save again and had an idea for getting the explorer to the caravel. If the explorer beelines toward St. Pete, he'll get to the hill SW of St. Pete on T20. The jobs I had planned for the workers have them finishing roads SW and NE of St. Pete on T21. If we first send our caravel north to meet the Chinese, it can pick up the explorer northeast of St. Pete and experience no delay.

I propose to carry out this plan and finish my turnset after meeting with the Chinese.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I just looked at the save again and had an idea for getting the explorer to the caravel. If the explorer beelines toward St. Pete, he'll get to the hill SW of St. Pete on T20. The jobs I had planned for the workers have them finishing roads SW and NE of St. Pete on T21. If we first send our caravel north to meet the Chinese, it can pick up the explorer northeast of St. Pete and experience no delay. Nice work out. (I didn't intend to be critical about distant explorer -- that was clearly needed exploration -- just noting the problem it posed.)

I propose to carry out this plan and finish my turnset after meeting with the Chinese.

Your mouse, but still think we should at least consider immediate declaration and getting longbows in to keep ivory from being hooked up. Don't understand why we will need to declare war more than once. Please explain why you think this would be needed.

 

[ShannonCT]

Your mouse, but still think we should at least consider immediate declaration and getting longbows in to keep ivory from being hooked up. Don't understand why we will need to declare war more than once. Please explain why you think this would be needed.

Gandhi is still ~20 turns from sending out a settler. If we wait for a chance to capture a settler heading south, we can probably pick up 2-3 workers when we really need them. If we start the war now, we probably can't get more than 1 worker and we would need to keep the war going for 30-40 turns to achieve the objective of keeping Gandhi confined to the north. I was hoping for a quick war of 10-15 turns where we wouldn't give Gandhi much time to organize a counterattack. Gandhi will talk 6 turns after being declared on and has the highest possible probability of making peace.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I just looked at the save again and had an idea for getting the explorer to the caravel. If the explorer beelines toward St. Pete, he'll get to the hill SW of St. Pete on T20. The jobs I had planned for the workers have them finishing roads SW and NE of St. Pete on T21. If we first send our caravel north to meet the Chinese, it can pick up the explorer northeast of St. Pete and experience no delay.

I propose to carry out this plan and finish my turnset after meeting with the Chinese.

I have an alternative suggestion. The caravel heads east to get circumnavigation ASAP and the next build in Moscow is a work boat - either for St. Pete to allow faster library or for some exploration of the nearby islands. Either way we can use this work boat to contact the Chinese and allow the caravel to go east speeding up circumnavigation.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Your mouse, but still think we should at least consider immediate declaration and getting longbows in to keep ivory from being hooked up.

I wonder if we need to do some testing of these scenarios? It's unclear to me what the goal of the war would be if we declare now since so much depends on the AI behavior. I do see a problem if Gandhi sends a stack of longbows and elephants because we would need to spend a lot of hammers on maces to counter these attackers. But a stack of longbows would also be a pain.

I was hoping for a quick war of 10-15 turns where we wouldn't give Gandhi much time to organize a counterattack. Gandhi will talk 6 turns after being declared on and has the highest possible probability of making peace.

This scenario is easier to understand. Is there any chance that Gandhi will make peace as long as he is more powerful? Perhaps loosing a battle when (if) we capture his settler will be enough to persuade him into peace?

 

[ShannonCT]

I have an alternative suggestion. The caravel heads east to get circumnavigation ASAP and the next build in Moscow is a work boat - either for St. Pete to allow faster library or for some exploration of the nearby islands. Either way we can use this work boat to contact the Chinese and allow the caravel to go east speeding up circumnavigation.

Both cities are going to need MPs very soon at the rate they're growing. I think Moscow needs to build two warriors after caravel. But a workboat after the warriors for island exploration sounds like a good idea. We have plenty of seafood that will need netting soon.

But I don't see why we shouldn't spend an extra couple turns to contact the Chinese right away and get the explorer on the caravel. If we can get the Chinese map, it might help guide our caravel's next moves and speed up circumnavigation. Otherwise, we're sailing blind.

 

[ShannonCT]

I wonder if we need to do some testing of these scenarios? It's unclear to me what the goal of the war would be if we declare now since so much depends on the AI behavior. I do see a problem if Gandhi sends a stack of longbows and elephants because we would need to spend a lot of hammers on maces to counter these attackers. But a stack of longbows would also be a pain.

I've started plenty of Deity games with worker stealing from Gandhi on BtS and I can definitely say that we don't need to have more power to get peace. But it's not necessarily the case that he will give peace for free right away either. It might take a world map. War success (killing units) does affect the peace deal.

 

[leif erikson]

But I don't see why we shouldn't spend an extra couple turns to contact the Chinese right away and get the explorer on the caravel. If we can get the Chinese map, it might help guide our caravel's next moves and speed up circumnavigation. Otherwise, we're sailing blind.

Those turns could save us ten? I agree that we should contact China and try to trade for their Map. The Work Boat could then Scout east as needed.

 

[leif erikson]

I've started plenty of Deity games with worker stealing from Gandhi on BtS and I can definitely say that we don't need to have more power to get peace. But it's not necessarily the case that he will give peace for free right away either. It might take a world map. War success (killing units) does affect the peace deal.

As this is a new version, are there any "improvements" to AI behavior that may cause us grief?