Mad Professor
Deity
The SGOTM site gave me a session log in case you're interested in reading it...
Spoiler :
SGOTM 10 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Nice work MP! 
Got lots done during your set and we're moving along up the tech tree nicely.
Not sure what to do with the roster.
rrau has not posted for a few days and I have not heard from SCT. I've place rrau in the UP slot and we'll see if she is able to play a set. If not, how are you fixed for time CP?
Also, I'm hoping for PK's return. I know he was working on some BUFFY/BUG issues and I'm unsure if he has resolved them?
As for me, power supply came on Friday and I'm up and running again.
for all the screenies. Roster:
rrau - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
leif
Frederiksburg
ShannonCT
Mad Professor - Just Played!
PaulisKhan - Computer arrived and working, tuning up BUFFY...
About ready to return to the active roster?
Grover22 - Bitten by Real Life.
Sorry I was out yesterday. We went on a trip with my daughter's high school band to the University of Massachusetts. A great day, but a long one, 8:00 AM Saturday until 2:00 AM this morning.
I'll try to get caught up this afternoon and this evening and check our progress in more detail, once I wake up and can see straight again... 
Frederiksberg
Deity
Nice set MP. And some very good write ups
I believe that MP is not linking to the "official" save. Don't know if it matters which save we play on from.
We might as well bulb most of Astronomy and finish research of it so that we get access to building a couple of galleons.
Regarding the possible barb attack I think we should move the trireme north, the galley should stay put for one turn so that it may help sinking the barb galley and we should MM Moscow to build an xbow in two turns.
I believe that MP is not linking to the "official" save. Don't know if it matters which save we play on from.
We might as well bulb most of Astronomy and finish research of it so that we get access to building a couple of galleons.
Regarding the possible barb attack I think we should move the trireme north, the galley should stay put for one turn so that it may help sinking the barb galley and we should MM Moscow to build an xbow in two turns.
You're correct. I think it would be best to start the next set from the uploaded save at SGOTM central.
Concur.
With a Great Scientist nearly in our pocket (Fish City)and two more (St. Pete and with the discovery of Physics), we are nearing Biology. What path do we take next, Steam to Assembly Line or Electricity to Fission? It seems tyo me to be a togh question because it would be nice to get started on Manhattan Project. On the other hand, with Assembly Line to build factories, the additional hammers may lead to a faster build time for Manhattan Project and faster research beyond?
Mad Professor
Deity
Correct, the link in this thread is a copy of the save which is identical to the one I uploaded, but not a link to the "official" save on the SGOTM progress page. I did things in the wrong order, putting a copy of the save in this thread, then after that uploading to the SGOTM progress page. It would best I would think for the person playing next to download from the SGOTM progress page and use that copy. I don't know if AlanH does anything to the file in between sets, but if we use that one, we can't go wrong.
leif erikson said:
I'm not sure about the factories and the effect on unit building thereafter (other than the obvious) but from what I know about nukes in this game, we definitely want to maximise the time between when we get nukes and when our enemies get nukes. Hopefully they never will. REbuilfing your countryside after a nuke strike and the hammers, food and gold lost, and the drastoc reduiction in city size makes scrimping and saving a few hammers here and there like we are now look silly. The effect of a nuke is huge. We don't want any to drop on our empire while we are still dependent on the hammers, food and gold our economy is producing. Maybe in the last few turns as we're mopping up it won't matter much, but we want to be just about finished by the time anyone else builds a nuclear missile!
The system does not change the file in any way. As you say, it is safer to use the save from the "scoreboard", just to be sure.
I think there are two considerations here.
1. We have to produce those nukes once they are available and if we gain 50% in hammers, you should easily be able to speed up the construction of nukes.
2. We learned the power of the hammer economy in the last SGOTM. Murky has used it quite effectively. As the ratio of hammers to either wealth or research production is 1:1, with increased hammers we use less cities to build wealth to sustain our maintenance costs and can use other cities to build research. It is then simple to change production to nukes, galleons and cossacks, which we will be in need of to complete our conquest.
There is also the question of waiting to trade for Communism or self-researching it? This also plays into maximizing output and minimizing maintenance.
I think we have had a bit of a problem timing things to maximize them in the past. My question on this is one of timing, to try to think about which path yields us the greatest benefit. I think it is about time to consider this, as we can plan for Great People and build orders to support its accomplishment.
Appreciate the detailed write up, MP.
X-bow in Moscow sounds good.
I won't have much time until about Oct. 6, so would prefer not to go next.
X-bow in Moscow sounds good.
I won't have much time until about Oct. 6, so would prefer not to go next.
Mad Professor
Deity
Steam Power + Assembly line are 12,398 beakers. Electricity + Fission is 12,852 beakers. Electricity + Fission we're going to have considerable GSc help. For Steam Power + Assembly line I think we're going to have to do it by sheer grunt. It will take a little while.
The effect of a factory plus power in Moscow though is fairly significant. The Manhattan project alone is 2025 hammers. With a base of 25 hammers (say) + 75% (no factory) that would take about 47 turns. With factory and power plant it would take about 37 turns - 10 turns saving on the Manhattan project alone, never mind the nukes which are big builds themselves. We ARE going to need a LOT of hammers for this.
I think going Steam Power Assembly line first will definitely put the completion of the Manhattan Project back a bit, but it might speed up the production of nukes thereafter enough to get in the black. How much? I don't really know. There's always the old fashioned testing method... I don't fancy the idea of putting together a trial map though - I'm not that skilled in the use of the world builder.
We're probably going to have to build 40-50 nukes I'd say judging on earlier testing we did. Not to mention the military units we'll need. The sooner we get going on conquest the better but if our production is high earlier... It's all give and take which is a bit hard to estimate with a rule of thumb. It needs to be tested. Can anyone whip up a map to test it on really quickly...? It's recreating the current situation in the game which seems the hard bit to me.
Seems to me that getting to communism is a good project for the 47 (or 37) turns that we're building a manhattan project...?
Actually, come to think of it, with replaceable parts out there we might get lucky enough to trade for Steam Power if we wait a little...
I think we have had a bit of a problem timing things to maximize them in the past. My question on this is one of timing, to try to think about which path yields us the greatest benefit. I think it is about time to consider this, as we can plan for Great People and build orders to support its accomplishment.
Sounds like more testing is necessary. When is the deadline for finishing this game...?
Frederiksberg
Deity
Lot's of decisions to make regarding the tech path. What we know is that we bulb Astronomy with our current GS and then complete it in a couple of turns. The next two GS's we get out of Fish City in 6 turns (hopefully - could be a GE) and St. Pete in 8-9 turns. They both go into research of Physics. Then finish Physics to get a free GS and bulb part of Biology. Finish Biology through self research. We could also contemplate finishing Biology using two GS's depending on what is the faster way. St. Pete could probably produce one additional GS in 10-11 turns so Biology is no more than 20 turns away.
After Biology we will probably research Electricity and Fission using 5 GS's. We also need to research Rifling, Steel, Artillery, Rocketry. It makes sense to prioritize Steel because we can then build the Ironworks - probably in Moscow.
Then there are various off beeline techs we should consider:
Constitution (beakers from specialists), Communism (food from workshops, reduced maintenance), Assembly Line (factories, infantry), Fascism (Hammers for military), Radio (subs for tactical nukes).
After Biology we will probably research Electricity and Fission using 5 GS's. We also need to research Rifling, Steel, Artillery, Rocketry. It makes sense to prioritize Steel because we can then build the Ironworks - probably in Moscow.
Then there are various off beeline techs we should consider:
Constitution (beakers from specialists), Communism (food from workshops, reduced maintenance), Assembly Line (factories, infantry), Fascism (Hammers for military), Radio (subs for tactical nukes).
Fred, are you saying that we won't have to make decisions on tech for about the next 20 turns?
Frederiksberg
Deity
Cactus Pete said:
Hopefully less turns if it's faster to self research the remainder of Biology compared to bulbing. I can try to estimate this. My guess is that it will take at least 15 turns to reach Biology.
Another issue: Should we do something to improve relationships to Gandhi. Can we be sure that he won't attack if he is cautious or must he be pleased?
Frederiksberg
Deity
Thanks leif. We could reduce the probability that Gandhi will attack with more than 50% if we get him to cautious. So perhaps we should consider trading around Economics in a not so distant future to get some gold and some diplomatic bonuses. A DOW from G would indeed put us in an awkward position since he has a stronger army than we do.
What is the relationship between the Declare War probabilities and the 10 Peace Weight?
PaulisKhan
Physicist
I'm back in the zone, I submitted a crappy HoF game to test that I had all mods working properly. Will download the save now and try to catch up on everything I missed
-edit-
I'm impressed by how strong our position is. Great work everyone!
Tech path: I think if we're not in danger of missing the free GS from Physics, we should get Bio first. That should gain us 3-4 turns of build time on National Park and the 8 free S's.
WRT the future war/conquest - I think the barb cities will prove a distraction and we should just ignore them. The chinese look like a good target after India, they have the closest productive land.
-edit-
I'm impressed by how strong our position is. Great work everyone!
Tech path: I think if we're not in danger of missing the free GS from Physics, we should get Bio first. That should gain us 3-4 turns of build time on National Park and the 8 free S's.
WRT the future war/conquest - I think the barb cities will prove a distraction and we should just ignore them. The chinese look like a good target after India, they have the closest productive land.
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Nice to have you back PK!! 
Roster:
leif - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
PaulisKhan
Frederiksburg
ShannonCT
rrau
Mad Professor - Just Played!
Grover22 - Bitten by Real Life.
OK, I've got it and have begun working on a plan. Hope to get it posted soon. Keep those ideas coming...
Preliminary Plan to start discussion:
Research:
Bulb Astronomy with the Great Scientist in St. Pete and continue researching until it is completed. I estimate that to be 3 more turns.
With the next GS due in 6 turns, 3 additional turns after the discovery of Astronomy, begin research of Biology.
Are two GSs sufficient to complete Physics? If so, we should continue self-research of Biology until the next GS is born and we get a free GS from Physics, which may complete Biology? Given our current beaker production, I estimate Biology would require 31 turns to complete by self-research.
Do we plan on two GSs for Biology or one with self-research? If it is two, then we could put some beakers into Electricity or Steam Power while we wait for GSs to be born?
Civics:
Is it worth changing civics to Free Market? We would lose our free Engineers but gain commerce from trade routes for beakers and our economy.
Great People keep pushing Scientists.
I took a look at the Great People Tech Preferences and it seems that a Great Scientist can be used for Steam Power but only a Great Engineer can bulb Assembly Line. With national Park, are only Scientists, Artists and Merchants available for our free specialists or can we hire Engineers?
Cities:
Moscow - change production from Wealth to Xbow. Once Xbow complete, back to Wealth.
St. Pete continue building Wealth until Biology is researched, then National Park.
All other cities, continue to build Wealth.
Worker actions:
Workers continue to build Windmills, Watermills and Workshops unless there is a resource they can gain.
In the St. Pete area, we can begin building Forest Preserves, the tiles with Lumbermills get converted last.
Unit Orders:
Trireme north to face Barb Galley.
Keep Workboats and Galley with Workers and Missionary headed north to Vladivostok.
Trades.
Trade Economics around to civs for Gold and goodwill, starting with Gandhi. Do we gift Economics to Mao for brownie points?
Watch for Nationalism to become available.
What techs do we want to hold onto and not trade?
Research:
Bulb Astronomy with the Great Scientist in St. Pete and continue researching until it is completed. I estimate that to be 3 more turns.
With the next GS due in 6 turns, 3 additional turns after the discovery of Astronomy, begin research of Biology.
Are two GSs sufficient to complete Physics? If so, we should continue self-research of Biology until the next GS is born and we get a free GS from Physics, which may complete Biology? Given our current beaker production, I estimate Biology would require 31 turns to complete by self-research.
Do we plan on two GSs for Biology or one with self-research? If it is two, then we could put some beakers into Electricity or Steam Power while we wait for GSs to be born?
Civics:
Is it worth changing civics to Free Market? We would lose our free Engineers but gain commerce from trade routes for beakers and our economy.
Great People keep pushing Scientists.
I took a look at the Great People Tech Preferences and it seems that a Great Scientist can be used for Steam Power but only a Great Engineer can bulb Assembly Line. With national Park, are only Scientists, Artists and Merchants available for our free specialists or can we hire Engineers?
Cities:
Moscow - change production from Wealth to Xbow. Once Xbow complete, back to Wealth.
St. Pete continue building Wealth until Biology is researched, then National Park.
All other cities, continue to build Wealth.
Worker actions:
Workers continue to build Windmills, Watermills and Workshops unless there is a resource they can gain.
In the St. Pete area, we can begin building Forest Preserves, the tiles with Lumbermills get converted last.
Unit Orders:
Trireme north to face Barb Galley.
Keep Workboats and Galley with Workers and Missionary headed north to Vladivostok.
Trades.
Trade Economics around to civs for Gold and goodwill, starting with Gandhi. Do we gift Economics to Mao for brownie points?
Watch for Nationalism to become available.
What techs do we want to hold onto and not trade?
Mad Professor
Deity
Not quite. Physics requires 6048 beakers, and GSc's are getting us about 2600 at the moment. Two scientists will leave about 800 beakers left on Physics which will be about 5 turns of studying at currents rates.
Is it worth delaying gally 3 carrying the missionary and worker by one turn as extra insurance to be absolutely sure that Barb gally sinks? The Trireme will attack at about 90% against a galley in coastal waters. If you are unlucky, then you might want a galley to finish it off.
In the off chance that barb galley is carrying units and lands them on the desert tile SE of Moscow this coming turn, you might need that Xbow real quick. I suppose we can buy the extra turn by migrating warriors from St. Pete?
OK. As long as it doesn't speed the AI to nukes...
"With national Park, are only Scientists, Artists and Merchants available for our free specialists or can we hire Engineers?" My understanding is that you can only hire specialists that would normally be available to you.
Like to see something in the plan regarding barb worker capture and gaining unit experience. Wonder if we could get a trireme or, better, a caravel (since one could retreat to the ocean to heal) to 10exp if we went sailing in barb territory.
Like to see something in the plan regarding barb worker capture and gaining unit experience. Wonder if we could get a trireme or, better, a caravel (since one could retreat to the ocean to heal) to 10exp if we went sailing in barb territory.
Frederiksberg
Deity
PaulisKhan said:
Good to have you back PK
Are you sure that self research of Biology is faster? With extensive bulbing it looks like 15-20 turns. Have you factored in that both Astro and Physics are higher than Biology on the GS bulbing preference list?
Cactus Pete said:
How about building a Privateer when we have Astro?. Then we can start making the seas unsafe for all the AI
and we may have enough targets (AI and barb galleys) to get it to 10 XP. Worker stealing would require considerable investments in millitary units and I'm not sure if now is the time since we need hammers to build wealth and speed the discovery of Biology.Mad Professor said:
I agree with this. Keep the galley where it is for one turn. We can build the xbow in two turns and if necessary delay the barbs by moving warriors into Moscow.
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