SGOTM 11 - Barley Demons

[T-hawk]

Or, to put it another way, an Emperor AI needs 75H * 85% = ~63H to build a Barracks.

This is how it actually works and is calculated.

Also the AIs get a further discount in costs of -3% per era. I'm not sure if that's the human's era or the AI's but I think the latter. This is multiplicative with the difficulty discount, so in the Renaissance, a barracks would be 75H * 85% * 91%.

I like T-Hawk's suggestion about 2S of the pigs for a GPF. Four food resources including 2 fish and grassland pigs with fresh water. There are also 6 grasslands that can all be irrigated before CivServ. If we're going for Culture this can bag us a lot of artists; if we're going for Diplo, which I think we are, this means a lot of GS for bulbing and Academies.

Good point, the max GP farm city works well for either culture or diplo. Might be good to settle it first as soon as we're done blocking off Zara.

 

[Compromise]

I tried my hand at the dotmaps, and got similar results to pocketbeetle and SilentConfusion.

So I started trying to approach it from different angles, e.g.

What cities' positions are "obvious"? Clams and the 4-food source GP Farm

What do we want various cities to do? Grab resources, Claim territory, Build troops/wonders/commerce, etc.

Then, I started to think about wonders. It's already 2400BC. I think we want Hereditary Rule pretty darn quickly. The two wonder-enabled routes are Pyramids and Oracle->Monarchy.

I whipped up some quick test games to see what our goal should be on Emperor for the Oracle. I think we're looking at 1500BC or so to be safe. That's turn #100, and we're on turn #64 now.

We can switch research to Meditation->Priesthood and have the latter in about 15T. The problem with the Oracle is polluting any "good gpp-making" city's pool with Prophet points. So, while I think we could build/whip-overflow/chop it in either Delhi or Bombay, it'd be nice not to have it in either place.

We can have a settler ready in about 5T (two chops, 2-pop whip in Delhi) plus 4T to move is about 8-10T for a 3rd city. We could head north near the wheat, but... If we settled on the coastal hill, we'd have 3 forests to chop (=90H) and be able to max out at 5hpt. That's 27T after Priesthood. To be safe, I think we only have 15-20T. We could settle 1S of the wheat and have 4 forests to chop, but then we have 4 (later 5) hpt. Still in the low-20s for turns. Although risky, this is probably our best bet to try for the Oracle. Not saying we should, but now is the time to say yes or no to the attempt.

Alternatively, we could get 5 forests out of a location on the Indian-Ethiopian river valley, but only a max of 3-4 hpt. About the same risk as 1S of the wheat, but for no real gain. And more border pressure with Zara, and still needing a city up north to block.

We could settle west, perhaps at SilentConfusion's yellow-X between the horses and the copper, but that conflicts with my next idea:

As I was thinking about this, I was also trying to think of ways to do both: get Pyramids and Oracle. Since the dotmapping is so not-straightforward, I again started to think of settling directly on the stone for a stab at the Pyramids. I think this might be worth it (in contrast to waiting to hook up a long-to-improve-and-useless-to-work desert quarry.)

The site's not terrible with 2 floodplains. And it doesn't waste any seafood. And it allows us to hook up horses right away.

I'm sure we could get the Pyramids in Bombay. It's got something like 8 forests that can be chopped, and it's a production city to boot.

If we go for both Oracle and Pyramids, I'd suggest taking Metalcasting from the Oracle. We have silver for an extra happy from forges. Fish city on the incense (still possible if we settle 1S of the wheat) could even make a good Colossus site which would be dirt cheap with Copper and uncontested with Oracled Metalcasting.

All right, that's the gist of what I've been thinking about. I'm by no means committed to it or invested in it, but am interested in thoughts and opinions....

 

[SilentConfusion]

I think that the Pyramids are especially good if we're going for a diplo victory as we can build up favorite civic bonuses without having to hit those techs on our way to the UN. The Oracle is basically a way to turn hammers into beakers boosting our teching. How many hammers would it take to buy us Metal Casting's beakers? If we have marble hooked up it'll be a better exchange rate. But if we settle on the stone we won't be in position to get marble without another city, right? If we go MC route that early I think the the Colossus is a smart move with copper.

 

[Compromise]

Oracle is 225H. Med+Priesthood is ~300B (working from memory). Metalcasting is ~1000B. Seems worth it.

I think the Marble is too far away and our timeframe too short to hook it up for the Oracle attempt. Clam city will grab it for us later, and it'll have to help us with other wonders.

 

[timmy827]

Sorry, posted in PBEM3 that I was suddenly yoinked on a business trip but forgot I was going to be up here. Hopefully its not a big deal as decisions still need to be made

Oracle is 225H. Med+Priesthood is ~300B (working from memory). Metalcasting is ~1000B. Seems worth it.

The DaveMcW Rule of thumb is 1 hammer = 2.5 commerce (= 3 beakers on Metal Casting from the inherent 20% "arrow" bonus). So 225H for ~700 net beakers - slightly favorable payoff but not a home run. Is it better to build a settler + worker for almost the same cost? Given that we are grabbing some less-desirable spots first to block Zara I'm strongly tempted to consider that. Also not sure MC is that great for us here, not industrious and only one of the 3 forge happy resources.

The big wildcard is whether we could broker MC into a lot of other techs. If so then yes it's be worth it but we really cant say until we can get our galleys out - of course there is one more civ but if the only route is through Zara's coast making contact might be difficult. (With OB we can sail through his coast, but not his ocean), plus possibilities of other contacts through the north and west islands.

 

[Compromise]

Good to hear from you timmy. Welcome back from the trip.

Let's decide on whether to try for the Oracle. As I see it:

1) The best place to build it is 1S of the wheat. This site has some choppable forests; it accomplishes our block-Zara goals. It can be used to mine two plains-hills which could then be shared by the incense city. It can produce workboats. The prophet points won't pollute much. If we do land Oracle, the culture will be nice versus Zara.

2) The time to go for it is now. We're about 15T away (Med -> Priesthood). Then we have about 15-20T to build it. (34T from now is 1500BC).

3) The cost/benefit analysis is positive, but not overwhelming. [Note: another downside is that by doing this, we delay writing quite a bit.]

I say let's go for it, but I don't see it as a critical part of a strategy. Any other comments on the above or opinions about making the attempt?

 

[T-hawk]

I've had good results before using Oracle culture to take control of a contested border. Also it gets some Great Prophet points started; they're not as good as Scientist points when we don't have a shrine to build, but an early settled prophet is always welcome.

In other words, it's more than just a 225H -> 1000 beaker conversion thanks to the wonder's other effects. Sounds decent to me.

 

[timmy827]

Oracle voting: T-hawk and Compromise in favor, SilentConfusion and I more skeptical (but not adamantly opposed). Let's hear from others, but assuming the vote is in favor; here's my take on what we would do for the Oracle.

I think it has to go in Bombay (assuming city 3 is somewhere to the north to block Zara). Compromise, your "1S of the wheat" doesn't really work - only 3 forests to chop. Also, I can't imagine Bombay would produce other GPP so I think that's fine. The extra culture would get us the stone pretty quickly without the need to settle a city on it which is helpful if we want Pyramids.

My favored location for city 3 is 1N of oasis. I think most others are on board but would like confirmation. However, I'm not so sure that's what we want to right away - I may favor a worker next in Delhi for more chopping action. If Zara is starting his Settler he's a ways away and it's virtually certain his first one is going for the cows/river location right? I think a quick 3rd city + needing to chop out Oracle leaves us a bit thin on worker dept.

 

[Compromise]

I was actually hoping to build the Pyramids in Bombay. With stone, I think that's a better use of the forests.

And Engineer points may be nicer if not mixed with Prophet points. But maybe not. Since we need 4 great people at the end of this event, maybe we just want the points, with less regard to type. Mixing the pool does make it harder to plan on specific outcomes, of course.

And I agree about needing another worker regardless. Probably the next whipped build.

 

[SilentConfusion]

I'm more in favor of the pyramids than the oracle, but I'm not against the Oracle. I was just wondering about the benefits of it, as I rarely build it in my games.

 

[timmy827]

Compromise, good point about Pyramids in Bombay.

As I see it, maybe we could put the Oracle in the "nice, but not crucial" category, and build in our new blocking city; even if it comes after 1500BC we may still well get it.

Trying for both may be possible but may be a stretch also (could definitely get both but I start to think that maybe that's too many hammers in wonders and not workers/settlers. Remember that due to the blocking plan, cities 4,5,6 (even though we haven't placed/ordered them definitively) are going to be much better spots than city 2 and 3, with the possible exception of a plant on the stone if we want Pyramids.) Let's

I don't want to play until we decide about these wonders, can we get a clear poll on whether we want one, both, neither?

If there isn't a consensus in ~24 hrs, I will want a swap, traveling from Wednesday through Memorial Day. Will have my laptop, can check forums and saves and discuss, but don't want the commitment of playing a turnset.

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I think the circumstances look more favourable for Pyramids than for Oracle, because we can hook up the stone for Pyramids, and have fast workers for efficient pre-chopping. I'd look at the possibility of settling the blocking city next, pre-chopping forests in Bombay, then putting city 4 on the stone and finish the pre-chops for Pyramids.

 

[T-hawk]

I am not sure exactly what we want to do with the Pyramids? Representation seems only marginally helpful. Our land doesn't really have the food to run lots of specialists except at the one GP farm. As Timmy says, that's a lot of hammers towards wonders and not workers/settlers. I'd rather expand quicker.

I'm not 100% sold on the Oracle either, but at least we have a solid plan for what to do with it.

 

[timmy827]

I am not sure exactly what we want to do with the Pyramids? Representation seems only marginally helpful. Our land doesn't really have the food to run lots of specialists except at the one GP farm. As Timmy says, that's a lot of hammers towards wonders and not workers/settlers. I'd rather expand quicker.

To counter my earlier argument, there are probably other spots to run specs - the clam city most obviously. And the +3 happy from Rep does look significantly useful, we don't have happy resources besides silver, incense, sugar visible. OTOH, if we wait on the deer city we can delay Hunting for a long time and build HR-warriors for less hammers, giving us more flexibility in happiness deployment but losing the GE points and having to pay some coin to support them.

Perhaps like Oracle, a delayed plan is another possibility - ignore Pyramids for now, but keep some forests around Bombay or Delhi; then if they are still open at say 500BC we can take all our workers and go from 0 - done very quickly (esp. if we research Math by then).

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I think we actually have quite a few decent food spots, just not city 2 & 3 PHI has good synergy with REP (especially if we end up going for an Astro bulb), and the happy is not to be knocked either.

As timmy mentions, we can look to fit Pyramids into our growth planning, whereas if we try for Oracle we have to bend our plans to do so because we're relatively closer to our postulated deadline date.

 

[pocketbeetle]

Eh, this isn't easy I agree.

I think if we intend to try and beat the other teams, we need to stretch.
Missing an Oracle free tech, particularly with all the forest around, would be a mistake.

As such my vote is that we settle 2 cities fast, one of which being the 3 clams/marble.
I had that amount in one of those test runs by t75ish.
Knock out the Oracle, and then pick up the Pyramids later.

Is Monarchy expensive enough to be Oracling?
Any chance we could research it and Oracle Theology?
If not, Monarchy or Metal Casting will do nicely. (Forge for helping with Pyramids?)


Planning ahead, run Rep-powered scientists at the GP farm, use GScis to bulb up the Mass Media tree, aim for Diplo victory.

settling directly on the stone for a stab at the Pyramids.

I like this idea

edit - and probably more important
5. it prevent Zara to settle SE of oasis and try to steal our oasis and cow with his creative culture (which will make both Bombay and blue loss lots of value)

Don't worry about this Jabah.
He won't settle SE of the oasis, too much desert.
If he settles anywhere in that area, it will be on the coast.

 

[timmy827]

As such my vote is that we settle 2 cities fast, one of which being the 3 clams/marble.
I had that amount in one of those test runs by t75ish.
Knock out the Oracle, and then pick up the Pyramids later.

Its T64 now. The marble requires a border pop (or forgoing 2 of the 3 clams, which seems real shortsigthed). Under those conditions, it's utterly impossible to get it hooked up anywhere near T75 even if we dropped everything else. So if we are going to make a serious Oracle run we are doing it without marble.

After thinking about it I like the new ideas I posted Seriously, my votes are for the following:
Assume we want Oracle, research Poly->Preisthood. Writing is nice but with building wonders and workers and settlers (oh my!) we don't realistically have the hammers for a library in near future.

After Delhi grows, swap to worker, chop the forest with one turn left, double-whip worker, overflow into settler. Post overflow have Delhi build more warriors while putting chops into settler, settler goes to found 1N of oasis, starts Oracle (initially it will work oasis, so OK if we don't have Preisthood right when it's founded). Get the new city to size 2 where it can work cows + hill mine for 8hpt, should give a fairly good chance for Oracle.

Pyramids are something to be evaluated later, focus on expansion (what order to settle is a future discussion) for a bit.

As mentioned, we are still far from consensus (which is ok, these are important far-reaching decisions, and still have 3 months) so I need a skip due to travel starting tomorrow.

 

[Jabah]

If we want quick marble, a city 1S of marble could quite easily fit in a good dotmap as it won't prevent the settling of all major cities.

In itself, this city will be quite good, with mainly 4 FP, rice and sharing marble+cow with 3 clams city. With also 5 grassland, it could be cottage heaven. It also has the special bonus of being able to bring irrigation to the rice without farming a FP (from the plain SE of it through the city which is on a desert tile, so can't do it this way without the city)

 

[Compromise]

... As mentioned, we are still far from consensus (which is ok, these are important far-reaching decisions, and still have 3 months) so I need a skip due to travel starting tomorrow.

We are indeed far from consensus! (No problem on the swap, though we may not need it if we can't decide before you get back.)

@Jabah: 1S of the marble may very well be a good site. We can't count on it to help with the Oracle though. Not enough time to get Med/Poly+Priest+Masonry and improve the marble before we need to be pretty well finished with the Oracle. Also, sites that far west might need to be well accompanied by warriors during and after settling.

One question I do have of timmy: Why prefer 1N of oasis to 2N of oasis for the Oracle build?

Both sites only have 3 choppable forests without a border pop.

Bombay is a clear production city and will rarely not work the cows.

If the new city is on the coast, I could see that site providing some boats for exploring, but not if it's next to the oasis.

Hmmm. Is 2N more expensive in maintenance than 1N of the oasis?

Maybe I'll try to do some quick worldbuilder tests to see if it makes much difference in Oracle timing....

Regarding wonders: I think we want Monarchy very soon. Big is great, especially when we can have all three granary resources. If we decide not to go for the Pyramids, I'd prefer Monarchy to Metalcasting from Oracle.

If we skip Oracle altogether, then building the Pyramids gets us Hereditary Rule now--and opens up Representation later--for a cost of 375H instead of Med/Poly+Priest+Monarchy. With chops, Pyramids could be the quick route to Hered Rule.

 

[timmy827]

@Jabah: 1S of the marble may very well be a good site. We can't count on it to help with the Oracle though. Not enough time to get Med/Poly+Priest+Masonry and improve the marble before we need to be pretty well finished with the Oracle. Also, sites that far west might need to be well accompanied by warriors during and after settling.

I do like this placement, seems a good way to use the rice and the FP compared to alternatives, but agree with Comp that it will still be too late for Oracle (in addition to Masonry, the quarry takes 9 turns IIRC plus a ton of roads.)

One question I do have of timmy: Why prefer 1N of oasis to 2N of oasis for the Oracle build?

Both sites only have 3 choppable forests without a border pop.

Bombay is a clear production city and will rarely not work the cows.

If the new city is on the coast, I could see that site providing some boats for exploring, but not if it's next to the oasis.

I was thinking of the benefit to eventually irrigate to the wheat. However, after some thought I agree with you, having a port (both for exploring boats, and to build some for the eventual 3 clam city) on that shore sounds like a better deal. I certainly don't think in terms of one square further sometimes costing us 1 more gpt.