SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

Revised plan looks good to me. Let's hope we do not regret not building the Shwedagon Paya. But I think the risk is worth it.

I like Sleepless' thought about trading Aesthetics to Zara later once we have a good head start on the Parthenon. Having a known civ with Theocracy as favorite civic build the SP would be excellent for us. Not that we could guarantee Zara would do that, but it is an interesting possibility.

Good luck!
 
haphazard1 said:
I like Sleepless' thought about trading Aesthetics to Zara later once we have a good head start on the Parthenon. Having a known civ with Theocracy as favorite civic build the SP would be excellent for us. Not that we could guarantee Zara would do that, but it is an interesting possibility.
Click to expand...

Excellent idea, Sleepless!

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I kept the turn set shorter than expected (10t), since a lot happened that may require some strategy adjustments and changes. Also, no units in the current turn have been moved yet.

Research was far slower than expected. I used binary Research in all turns except the last (50 % in the last turn to complete Polytheism). In 10t, we were able to complete Aesthetics and Polytheism. Research dipped to below 30%, but its back up to 40%.

Zara Yaqob started researching Mathematics, so I traded it, but the best I was able to get was Meditation and Hunting.

We met three new Leaders of Civilizations that are very Religious, Saladin, Isabella and Justinian I. We now have 4 AI Leaders that favor the Religious Civic Theocracy, so we must join them for the Diplomatic bonus when the time comes. With Open Borders to all four, we should get some natural Religion spread soon. I gifted our sole source of Corn to Saladin and sole source of Rice and Wheat to Isabella for the Resource traded Diplomatic bonus; we will not need the extra Health these Resources provided, so I decided to put them to good use. We can cancel the Corn trade to Saladin in 4t and the Rice and Wheat trade to Isabella in 6t or any time later when the Health benefits out weight the Diplomatic bonus of continuing these deals.

Zara Yaqob will complete Construction in 10t. He has access to Horse and thus it is quite conceivable that he may build Horse Archers and Catapults when Construction is completed. He may attack us in the near future; he has much better diplomacy with Isabella than with us. I'm sending a Warrior to Zara Yaqob to check out his War readiness; the Warrior has been instructed to seek out unusual Mines that produce a metal stronger than Bronze.

Here is my list of highlights for each turn played:

129:775 BC = Capital set to max Growth; OasisWheat whipped Settler
130:750 BC = RiceMarble interrupted Granary and started Galley
131:725 BC = Zara Yaqob Meditation+Hunting for Mathematics (9t left)
132:700 BC = met Saladin; Saladin Open Borders for Open Borders
133:675 BC = Zara Yaqob Construction in 16t; Saladin given Corn
134:650 BC = built ThreeClams, started Monument
135:625 BC = met Isabella; Isabella Open Borders, given Rice + Wheat
136:600 BC = ThreeClams completed Monument, started Work Boat, rushed Cow Pasture
137:575 BC = OasisWheat Population becomes 4; may become 5 in 4t
138:550 BC = met Justinian I; Justinian I Open Borders for Open Borders
139:525 BC = We are guaranteed completion of The Hanging Gardens via 26 Hpt as set now

Here is the report from the Game Save Upload:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 775 BC to 525 BC:

Turn 129, 775 BC: You have trained a Settler in OasisWheat. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 131, 725 BC: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 131, 725 BC: You have discovered Hunting!
Turn 131, 725 BC: You have discovered Aesthetics!
Turn 131, 725 BC: James Cook (Great Merchant) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 134, 650 BC: ThreeClams has been founded.
Turn 134, 650 BC: The borders of Capital have expanded!

Turn 135, 625 BC: Saladin adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 137, 575 BC: OasisWheat has grown to size 4.
Turn 137, 575 BC: Zara Yaqob adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 138, 550 BC: Capital will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 138, 550 BC: PigFish will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 138, 550 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 138, 550 BC: Capital celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 139, 525 BC: Capital has grown to size 8.
Turn 139, 525 BC: PigFish has grown to size 2.
Turn 139, 525 BC: PigFish can hurry Work Boat for 1? with 45? overflow and +1? for 19 turns.
Turn 139, 525 BC: The borders of RiceMarble are about to expand.
Turn 139, 525 BC: Zara Yaqob will trade Monotheism

Here is the autolog for the turn set:


Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 129/750 (775 BC) [30-May-2010 12:15:40]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 12 per turn, 7 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in OasisWheat
OasisWheat finishes: Settler
PigFish finishes: Monument

Turn 130/750 (750 BC) [30-May-2010 12:15:42]
PigFish begins: Work Boat (12 turns)
RiceMarble begins: Galley (75 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 11 per turn, 19 in the bank

Turn 131/750 (725 BC) [30-May-2010 12:33:56]
Tech traded to Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia): Mathematics
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Meditation
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Hunting
A Farm was built near HorseCopper
100% Research: 55 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -26 per turn, 30 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Aesthetics

Turn 132/750 (700 BC) [30-May-2010 12:42:08]
Research begun: Polytheism (4 Turns)
Player contact made: Saladin of Arabia
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 10 per turn, 4 in the bank

After End Turn:
OasisWheat grows to size 3
RiceMarble grows to size 2

Turn 133/750 (675 BC) [30-May-2010 13:43:12]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 15 per turn, 14 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in OasisWheat
Capital grows to size 7
HorseCopper grows to size 3

Turn 134/750 (650 BC) [30-May-2010 14:04:03]
Delhi founded
ThreeClams begins: Monument (23 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 22 per turn, 29 in the bank

After End Turn:
Capital's borders expand

Other Player Actions:
Player contact made: Isabella of Spain
Attitude Change: Isabella (Spain) towards Zara Yaqob (Ethiopia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 135/750 (625 BC) [30-May-2010 14:15:33]
100% Research: 74 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -31 per turn, 51 in the bank

After End Turn:
ThreeClams finishes: Monument

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Saladin(Arabia) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 136/750 (600 BC) [30-May-2010 14:37:47]
ThreeClams begins: Work Boat (23 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 22 per turn, 20 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Capital
OasisWheat grows to size 4

Turn 137/750 (575 BC) [30-May-2010 14:46:35]
A Pasture was built near ThreeClams
100% Research: 74 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -31 per turn, 42 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Zara Yaqob(Ethiopia) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 138/750 (550 BC) [30-May-2010 14:57:11]
A Mine was built near OasisWheat
Player contact made: Justinian I of Byzantium
50% Research: 37 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
50% Gold: -5 per turn, 11 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Polytheism
Capital grows to size 8
OasisWheat finishes: Library
HorseCopper finishes: Library
PigFish grows to size 2

Turn 139/750 (525 BC) [30-May-2010 15:11:02]
Research begun: Literature (10 Turns)
OasisWheat begins: The Parthenon (86 turns)
HorseCopper begins: Spearman (7 turns)
HorseCopper begins: Barracks (10 turns)

Well, there should be plenty to discuss now. For example, we could possibly Research Theology early and gift it to these four AI Leaders, adopt it ourselves without converting to a Religion and let the Theocracy Favorite Civic Diplomatic Bonus points increase to each AI Leaders limit. We may want to trade Monotheism from Zara Yaqob and research Theology (also providing a shortcut to Education). We also need to discuss whether we want to build up our Military to increase our Power high enough to dissuade Zara Yaqob from attacking us or not.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Big developments indeed.

Zara is not yet willing to trade Alphabet. Maybe we should put 1 turn of Research into Alphabet, then ask him for a trade of Alphabet for Aesthetics? If he says no, try 1 more turn of Research and ask the question again??

Espionage - I see we are putting 100% of our Espionage Points towards Saladin... is this the best approach, or should we invest some points against the others as well?

Does anyone have a list of hidden diplomatic modifiers for a Diplomatic Victory vote? I seem to remember Zara has a +2 hidden modifier (i.e. he only needs to be +6 visible relations to vote the player to Diplomatic victory). Isabella I think has a -2 hidden modifier, so needs +10 visible relations to give a positive vote. The others I'm not so sure about...
 
Sun Tzu Wu, looks like a good (and eventful!) turnset. :thumbsup:

Can you give an idea of where each of the new AIs was met? Passing workboats, culture seen, scouts, whatever? I will not be able to look at the save until much later today.

Also, do any of the new leaders have religion? I am assuming Isabella is Buddhist founder since you mentioned Zara having strong relations with her. But what about the others? Religious rivals can be very messy and cause major wars, and we need all the AIs alive.

Hmmm...4 leaders with Theocracy as favorite civic. This is better than I expected, and will definitely be helpful for future diplo and for keeping them out of Free Religion. Still no religious spread to us? :( This is purely luck (bad luck in this case), and may be setting us back compared to other teams. :(

Tech rate may be down, but are we able to run some Rep scientists yet? That should keep at least some beakers flowing. We need Alpha so we can trade with everyone. Note Saladin has Monarchy from his civics change. Zara and Saladin at least are teching at a very good pace. I really wish we owned Zara's capital -- very nice city, great commerce. :(

Adopting Theocracy without a state religion...could work for diplo, but will prevent any further religious spread to us. We need to watch the religion situation very closely -- if all of these AIs adopt Theocracy without all of them having at least one common religion, we would at least be safe from an AI victory by AP-diplo.
 
Trading for Alphabet:

ianw1610 said:
Zara is not yet willing to trade Alphabet. Maybe we should put 1 turn of Research into Alphabet, then ask him for a trade of Alphabet for Aesthetics? If he says no, try 1 more turn of Research and ask the question again??
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree. Zara Yaqob will likely dominate Technologies, unless we can get Alphabet from him. We can still try to build The Parthenon and will likely succeed unless Zara builds it too.

Espionage Points:

ianw1610 said:
Espionage - I see we are putting 100% of our Espionage Points towards Saladin... is this the best approach, or should we invest some points against the others as well?
Click to expand...

He was the first AI found after Zara Yaqob. We had a huge number of Espionage points against and I thought we should focus on Saladin for a while. It may make sense to put some against Zara Yaqob so we continue to see what he is researching.

Hidden Diplomatic Modifiers & Favorite Civics:

ianw1610 said:
Does anyone have a list of hidden diplomatic modifiers for a Diplomatic Victory vote? I seem to remember Zara has a +2 hidden modifier (i.e. he only needs to be +6 visible relations to vote the player to Diplomatic victory). Isabella I think has a -2 hidden modifier, so needs +10 visible relations to give a positive vote. The others I'm not so sure about...
Click to expand...

Code: 
AI Leader  H. Dipl   Favorite Civic
=======    =======   ============
Isabella        -1   Theocracy
Justinian I     +1   Theocracy
Saladin          0   Theocracy
Zara Yaqob      +2   Theocracy

Note that a Favorite Civic is worth +1 immediately when both you and the AI Leader share his Favorite Civic and the bonus increases by +1 for every 10 turns this continues to be true. The bonus vanishes whenever you or the AI Leader switches away from the Favorite Civic, but the bonus is reinstated if switched back soon enough (5t is soon enough to prevent too much decay).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
How and where new AI Leaders were Contacted:

haphazard1 said:
Can you give an idea of where each of the new AIs was met? Passing workboats, culture seen, scouts, whatever? I will not be able to look at the save until much later today.
Click to expand...

Work Boat found Saladin on Continent to our West.

Isabella's Work Boat found our Capital from the East.

Moved our Work Boat counterclockwise around the Continent to our West and met Justinian I's Work Boat somewhere South of that Continent.

New AI Leaders State Religions:

haphazard1 said:
As I recall, the new Leaders follow Buddhism (Isabella and Zara Yaqob), and Hinduism (Saladin and Justinian I).

Sun Tzu Wu
Click to expand...
 
Interesting. I might not have OB with Sal and Just because I would want to have Buddhism only spread given Zara is the only threat we face. But I suppose we don't have to switch if Hinduism comes our way.

We need to get Alpha, and then I do like the Theology gambit.

Obviously, I am now up. Lots of choices. Going to have to plot a bit.

Important Goals
More Scientists, More Research
Get Alpha (previously discussed)
Build Military
Explore
Scout Zara

Go for Theo after getting Alpha?
 
What would be the plan after Theology? Straight onto Paper and Education, bypassing Code of Laws and Civil Service?

If we can get Alphabet through a trade with Zara, then hopefully we can also get Monotheism via trading with someone, to enable us to start reseaching Theology.

Also pay attention to the Worst Enemies screen. None of the AIs that we have met have a visible worst enemy, but with different religions existing in the game, the position is likely to change turn by turn.

Still no sign of any of the 4 required Resources, right??
 
Religion spread:

JerichoHill said:
Interesting. I might not have OB with Sal and Just because I would want to have Buddhism only spread given Zara is the only threat we face. But I suppose we don't have to switch if Hinduism comes our way.
Click to expand...

If we want the spread of only Buddhism, you are right no open borders with Saladin would be best. However, we do want the Open Borders diplomatic bonus with everyone, even if it results in them scouting our weaknesses and declaring War on us. That would allow us to capture their best Cities and Vassalize them. We probably wouldn't mind Zara Yaqob declaring War on us; we could capture and take his fine Capital and maybe his other two nearby Cities, assuming he has expanded overseas.

Alphabet and Theocracy:

JerichoHill said:
We need to get Alpha, and then I do like the Theology gambit.
Click to expand...

Getting Alphabet will be easy, since Zara Yaqob is focused on Construction. We simply research Alphabet and each turn ask Zara to trade Alphabet for Aesthetics. He will agree after about two 100% Research turns (5 real turns). In this case, we should save cash for one 100% Research turn, do it and thereafter Research the max. can (40-50%) until Zara agrees to the trade.

With four AI Leaders with Theocracy as a Favorite Civic, it just makes sense to get Theology. The best thing is the Favorite Civic bonus keeps increasing to each AI Leaders' max. regardless of who is the Worst enemy of whom.

JerichoHill said:
Important Goals
More Scientists, More Research
Get Alpha (previously discussed)
Build Military
Explore
Scout Zara

Go for Theo after getting Alpha?
Click to expand...

Specialists and Wonders:

We probably should focus more on running Scientists and utilizing the 3B Representation bonus than trying to complete Great Wonders. We clearly should take The Hanging Gardens next turn in our Capital (we need 26H to complete it, so we must have 26+ Hpt this turn; no sense in stretching this out to 2-3 turns and lose the Wonder to an AI Opponent). All future Great Wonders should be built not with the idea of completing them, but for the Wealth they provide when an AI completes them; when we get Marble up, we will get back 2 Wealth for each Hammer put into a Great Wonder (or National Wonder) with a Stone or Marble production bonus. This extra Wealth can be a great for raising our Research slider to 100% for significant stretches of turns.

Inviting a DoW from Zara Yaqob:

I'd suggest building Barracks in all Hammer heavy Cities and PreBuild a Chariot, Spearman, and Axeman in every City with a Barracks and even some without a Barracks. Walls in OasisWheat and our Capital should also be built or prebuilt (not sure how Walls affect Power rating). The idea is to make us appear much weaker than we are, inviting Zara to DoW us. When he does Dow, we simply complete PreBuilt units as needed to defeat his Stacks of Doom. When he exhausts all his excess Military units, we counter attack with a major stack aimed at his Capital, cut off his reinforcements as best we can and take it.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
CoL/Theology -> Paper/Ed:

ianw1610 said:
What would be the plan after Theology? Straight onto Paper and Education, bypassing Code of Laws and Civil Service?
Click to expand...

I usually Research Civil Service for Bureaucracy before Paper -> Education, but our Capital cottages aren't quite as developed as they could be and Bureaucracy helps only the Capital, so Paper -> Education fueled by Representation would likely be a faster route to Mass Media. We can trade for Civil Service later. (For Military needs, Gunpowder and Steel (if needed) may be better than Civil Service and Engineering.)

After or even before Theology, we can Research Code of Laws for Caste Systems and Courthouses. (There is the possibility of bulbing a Great Prophet for Theology (1st) and Code of Laws (2nd), but we have little prospect of generating a Great Prophet, lacking Great Wonders that can generate Great Prophet points and a Religions to build Temples and hire Prophets.)

Alphabet -> Monotheism/Priesthood:

ianw1610 said:
If we can get Alphabet through a trade with Zara, then hopefully we can also get Monotheism via trading with someone, to enable us to start reseaching Theology.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, Saladin, Isabella and Justinian I are quite likely to have Monotheism for trade, since it is after all on the Technology path to Theology which unlocks their Favorite Civic. They are also likely to have Priesthood, since it is on the path to Monarchy (or Code of Laws) that is usually targeted by the AI Leaders in general. That can be used for our Code of Laws target.

Worst Enemies:

ianw1610 said:
Also pay attention to the Worst Enemies screen. None of the AIs that we have met have a visible worst enemy, but with different religions existing in the game, the position is likely to change turn by turn.
Click to expand...

Yes, we must ensure that we do not gain Diplomatic penalties against those AI Leaders we are grooming as Friends via trading with their worst enemies. We can possibly use trades with third parties and spies directly to change the worst enemy of AI Leaders, allowing us to trade with former worst enemies without penalty.

Four Required Resources:

ianw1610 said:
Still no sign of any of the 4 required Resources, right??
Click to expand...

No, I didn't see any from our exploring Work Boat.

We might know more when we complete Paper and can trade World Maps with all known Al Leaders. That can be better than Optics and Caravels, except all the AI Leaders we have met so far are accessible via Work Boats and Galleys.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
JerichoHill said:
Won't prebuilding potentially waste alot of hammers?
Click to expand...

The Hammer decay doesn't set in until after a certain number of turns that is larger for longer Game speeds like Epic and Marathon. A good Hammer City should be able to preBuild at least three different units and leave them in the queue for a while. This is something a test Game using the same parameters as SGTOM-11 could easily validate or disprove.

As soon as decay in the earliest prebuilt unit starts, we have the option of completing the unit and starting another prebuilt unit of the same type or just watch the Hammers decay.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Research
0% 1 turn, 100% Alpha 1 turn, try to trade for Alpha, after Alpha go for Mono, Theo
Cities
Capital - Finish Hanging Gardens (Turn 1), Monument, Barracks
HorseCopper - Barracks, Axe
OasisWheat - Parthenon
PigFish - Granary
ThreeClams - WB's
RiceMarble - Galley (keep farming!)

Great People
Capital - 2 SCI, 1 ENG (Work Food, stop Mines, get GPP)
OasisWheat - 1 SCI after pop inc in 2 turns


Scouting
Duh. Explore. Find people. Get stuff


Relations
Be nice to Yara, but set the stage...
 
JerichoHill said:
Research
0% 1 turn, 100% Alpha 1 turn, try to trade for Alpha, after Alpha go for Mono, Theo
Cities
Capital - Finish Hanging Gardens (Turn 1), Monument, Barracks
HorseCopper - Barracks, Axe
OasisWheat - Parthenon
PigFish - Granary
ThreeClams - WB's
RiceMarble - Galley (keep farming!)

Great People
Capital - 2 SCI, 1 ENG (Work Food, stop Mines, get GPP)
OasisWheat - 1 SCI after pop inc in 2 turns


Scouting
Duh. Explore. Find people. Get stuff


Relations
Be nice to Yara, but set the stage...
Click to expand...

Looks very good so far.

We probably don't need a Monument in the Capital. Maybe building another Fast Worker there would be helpful, but we possibly can get by with just 5 Fast Workers for now. That may change when we have overseas Cities. After building the Barracks in the Capital, we should prebuild some military units.

Also, I'd like to see a Chariot built, in any City with a Barracks, which could help our Warrior scout out Zara Yaqob's Area and later get loaded onto our Galley in progress.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Sorry tied up with real life atm. Hopefully get back to game in 30 ish hours for a look/thoughts etc. Don't mind going to paper via Theo just note ideally we need currency/CoL to carry on rex and the AI will be slow to get them. Lit should definitely be the next tech for GLib after trading for Alpha.

Nice turnset Sun Tzu Wu. :goodjob:

ianw1610 nice fast finish in BOTM29. Did make my fastest space ship but still a long way to go looking at Duckweeds score. I have found the secret though. Just have a 100 cities and your research rate can be pretty high.
 
I agree with Sleepless that we should be going for Literature after we put enough beakers into Alpha to get the trade. Although we will have to see what is available from the other AIs once we have Alpha. But we want to get the Great Library with our marble, and also the National Epic in our GP farm.

Since we will be trading Aesthetics for Alpha, we need to move quickly for the Great Library to ensure we get it. Mono and Theo will still be there later. In fact, with multiple AIs with Theo as a favorite civic they are likely to research it, and we can get it later by trade. Or at least get a research bonus for other civs already knowing the tech. Theo can wait while we lock down the Great Library. Economically we then need Currency and CoL to get our economy in order, and to open Caste civic for more Rep-boosted scientists.

On pre-building units, I am not really in favor of this plan. Hammer decay sets in very quickly, even on epic speed, and we will end up wasting a lot of hammers for which we have many other uses. We might have one unit pre-building per city, but I do not think we should have any more than that and maybe we should have less. A couple chariots for exploration and keeping an eye on Zara is a good idea, though.

Once we have Alpha, I think we will need to pause and assess what trading opportunities are available from the AIs. Since we will have traded Aesthetics to Zara for Alpha, we should be prepared to give it to the other AIs for whatever we can get before Zara does. The whole tech trading thing works so much better when you are the tech leader.
 
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