SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

[Sun Tzu Wu]

For Espionage, at present I'd give 0 to Saladin, and 1 each to the other 4 AIs.

What would be the advantage of splitting our 4 Espionage pt among 4 different AIs?

I would prefer 4 Espionage pt to Zara Yaqob, as long as he continues to be the AI Technology leader. It is good to know what he is researching. His Espionage may soon exceeed what we are willing to put toward Espionage and we may become blind to what he is researching.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ianw1610]

What would be the advantage of splitting our 4 Espionage pt among 4 different AIs?

I would prefer 4 Espionage pt to Zara Yaqob, as long as he continues to be the AI Technology leader. It is good to know what he is researching. His Espionage may soon exceeed what we are willing to put toward Espionage and we may become blind to what he is researching.

Sun Tzu Wu

In the Test game, I used at least one Spy against every rival, so the intention was to start accumulating EPs now. But yes, I agree with you that, for now, we can put 100% EPs to Zara for the purpose of continually viewing his Research. If necessary, we can increase the EP allocation to the others later in the game.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

I'll be looking to play tonight.

To clarify the plan is as stated with following adjustment -

Glib to be built in Pigfish (if pop GE) or Horse Copper (GS)

SP to be built in Horse Copper (if pop GE) or Cap (GS).

Horse Copper has more forest to chop so I would prefer to build here to allow cap to remain working cottages where poss.

Move EP to Zara whilst he is tech lead.

 

[ianw1610]

Sounds good. Don't forget to gift Monotheism to Justinian for, hopefully, a Diplo bonus... and don't forget to Mine and Route the Silver, to increase happiness by 1 in all cities.

Good Luck!!

 

[Sleepless]

Problem with putting the GL in horse/copper is the lack of gp's we will get there. I would favour the capital if it doesn't go in pig/fish. Although the gp pool gets polluted it will certainly give us more gps than horse/copper and we can run a GE once we have the forge up.

Still haven't seen the save but should have access in about 10 hrs. After Mighty Dwaarf has played.

Good Luck on your turnset.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Hmm, played a couple of turns and due to circumstances not clear which way to go so took a break.

After gifting mono to Justin he is now pleased, traded fish to Izzy for Corn too.

We spawned a GS so plan of GE rushing Glib is out of the window.

As it stands plan was to save GS to bulb paper, whilst building with chops Parth, Glib and SP.

The plan to build SP is based on two things, stopping AI having access to FR and early Pacisfism. We plan to research Theo giving us access to Paper. However we are struggling cash wise which we hope to back trade for COL and Currency to improve.

I'm a bit worried that this might not be the best option to tie up our three main cities with these WW builds. It has been suggested that as 4 of known AI's favour Theocracy the FR worry is minimised. Also we can gain access to Pacifism the old way to by researching COL now and bulbing Philo. This will probably give us access quicker than the SP option and would give us both access to Caste System and Chouses. We will need Philo for Lib eventually and this is a more expensive tech than paper.
One other small thing is that we still would have a chance of finding Confucianism and will surely found Taoism. If we can limit these spread around AI and keep most of the world to 1-2 religions then will be easier to manage diplo later down the line.

With the Glib I still prefer to build this in Horse Copper as this has more base production, more nearby forests to chop and wont pollute the GP pool from an engineer which we will still need for UN.

As regards Pacifism, we are going to need a religion for it to work, we have currently Hindu in HorseCopper and Judaism in Rice Marble. Which do we favour or do we wait for Buddhism?? We are going to need to spread whichever we choose around more, we could spend some time in OR for free missionaries or build monastries first.

I think we should go with Hindu and OR, this would allow us to start planning ahead now, would give small production bonus to HorseCopper for GLib and possibly draw Zara onto us.
Cons are that could restrict trade opps from Zara and Izzy and poss draw Izzy into war with us.

I will look to finish off tomorrow night so please let me know thoughs??

 

[Sleepless]

I honestly think atm we don't want to adopt a religion. Probably safe from Zara but a bit early to rock the boat especially as we don't have any military.

Another thing to think of who will be our oppo? my money would be on Justinian so we would want Zara/Isa to vote for us although still a bit early to decide.

We are now at the stage we want to get more cities out. Esp the sugar island and possibly the gold site near Sal if there is any food and he hasn't settled there yet.

GLib I still prefer in the cap. HorCop won't make enough advantage of the specs and should be on mil/settler/worker prod imho.

OW finish the Parth. Not bothered about SPaya if we concentrate on esp on whoever builds it. Might be an idea to start it in a city for 1 turn and try and trick the AI into thinking we are building it.

Plus side of bulbing philo. Keeps the AI even further away from Lib/FR

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

The point about religion is that if we go to Pacifism we are going to need one, we basically have a choice between two. If we go the bulb Philo route we could get Pacifism in about a dozen turns. If we want to get the most from it we should plan for it now. I dont see much threat from Zara he has no offensive military and only 4 cities the same as Izzy. If we plan to goad Zara into DOW on us then we are foing to have to upset him sooner or later.

Not sure our priority is more cities at the moment, we are struggling to afford those we have.

As regards Glib I would think that once we adopt bureaucracy we would concentratre workign cottages and hammers here so less spec's. We need a GE also and this would be our main site for this so not sure about adding too many GS points.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

GLib I still prefer in the cap. HorCop won't make enough advantage of the specs and should be on mil/settler/worker prod imho.

The Great Library will be fine in HorseCopper. We aren't going to get many GGPs from it before it becomes obsolete with Scientific Method. Once, GL is complete it can run a total of 4 Scientists. With Caste System and a 2nd Floodplains Farm, we might be able to run a fifth Scientist.

The Great Library is more important for the two free Scientists it provides than its GPP generation. It's a horrible gene pool polluter that we definitely do not want in Capital.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Also we can gain access to Pacifism the old way to by researching COL now and bulbing Philo.

Researching Code of Laws now will make bulbing Paper with our GS impossible. We must complete Theology first and then bulb Paper. Thereafter any GS bulb will prioritize Education which is exactly what we want.

We have no need of Philosophy if we build Shwedagon Paya. The Capital can build it quite fast if we can grow a bit more and work more Hammer Tiles.

There may be good reasons for becoming 1st to Liberalism, but both Philosophy and Liberalism are unnecessary diversions from our bee-ling to Mass Media. I'd say skip both Philosophy and Liberalism; we can trade for both later, if we can think of a use for them.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ianw1610]

I think our number 1 priority at the moment is completing Oxford Uni as quickly as possible - likely facilitated by bulbing all of Paper plus some of Education. Then we can think about backfilling any techs we missed - hopefully via trading.

As for the Wonders, I'm not too bothered about Shwedagon Peya, as we can control that via Espionage, so if I could pick one of the three current Wonders to drop from our immediate plans, I'd choose that one...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Oxford University:

I think our number 1 priority at the moment is completing Oxford Uni as quickly as possible - likely facilitated by bulbing all of Paper plus some of Education. Then we can think about backfilling any techs we missed - hopefully via trading.

I agree. Where do we want to build Oxford University? It would be nice to build it in FishPig, but that City doesn't have many Hammer Tiles. It would also be effective in the Capital, especially after we adopt Bureaucracy.

Shwedagon Paya:

As for the Wonders, I'm not too bothered about Shwedagon Peya, as we can control that via Espionage, so if I could pick one of the three current Wonders to drop from our immediate plans, I'd choose that one...

We can also build Shwedagon Paya without being concerned that we finish it, because we will get 2W back for every 1H we put into it due to the Gold Hammer multiplier. However, I would prefer we make a good attempt at completing it though. I'd be happy with running two Scientists and the rest Hammer Tiles in the Capital for this purpose.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ianw1610]

As for Liberalism... if there is a chance that we can be first to Liberalism, and take a high-value Technology for free (something like Radio), then of course we would fit Liberalism into our plans, as we would save ourselves some research beakers overall.

If a rival AI gets close to completing Liberalism while we are still somewhere around Astronomy / SciMeth on the tech tree, then we may consider foregoing it.

Note also that the 2 free Scientists from the Great Library expire with SciMeth... so when we have all the SciMeth pre-requisites, we may want to start researching Liberalism (to get the benefit of the 2 Scientists when researching it), but then stop researching with 1 turn remaining... and come back to finish it later, with the aim of grabbing Radio for free......

 

[JerichoHill]

I think at this point I would advise against a push to getting SP.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Stick with tech plan then and go for GLib in HC, SP in Cap and Parth in OW.

T0 - Slider to 0% to save cash, Three Clams - Granary, Rice Marble works Marble rather than rice, Esp 4ept to Zara, gift Mono to Justin for diplo.
T1 - Granary whipped in Pigfish, Trade Fish for Corn to Izzy.
T2- Curses, Wboat by sugar land is killed by Barb Galley, Sally demands Aesthetics after much deliberation refuse - Feel we can cope with the -1, GS not a GE born.
T2 - Whip Granary in Rice Marble, Cap SP
T3 - Barb Galley destroy three clams fish boats, Rice Marble Granary to Galley, Oasis Wheat Charoit to Parth
T5 - Barb Galley comes from nowhere to take out our one galley!! We are going to lose fish near Pig Fish
T6 - Barb Galley moves away from PigFish??
T8 - Whip Lib in Pigfish
T9 - GP born in Mecca (that will be Holy Shrine), whip Galley in Rice Marble
T10 - Hindu holy shrine built by Sally, Toku converts to Hindu

We can work a sci or 2 in pigfish although we may want to grow?? There is one worker just finished farming FP near Horse Copper with movement left, other two workers mining silver near cap.

Galley is on way to engage Barb Galley, after that will need to deal with galley which was near three clams but has retreated to sugar island.

We are about 5 turns off Theo.

There is new land to the west of Justinian with one barb city there just to far inland to see. Zara gone for Feudalism, no tech trades available.

I was swapping capital between Corn and Cottage to avoid growing one more into unhappiness untill silver mine completed.

 

[ianw1610]

Still going according to plan - unlucky about the Barb Galley.

I wonder if that is *The* Barbarian city (i.e. the one with the Fur)...

I note that Justinian now has Calendar, so if we watch his Resource screen we can see if he has any of the 4 key resources.

Tokugawa is down to Cautious. I think we should gift him Monotheism, to hopefully get him back up to Pleased.

I think we should aim to complete research of Theology on the exact same turn as our next Great Person is born. If we get a 2nd Great Scientist, we can then bulb Paper and some of Education right away. If we get a 1st Great Engineer, we would likely self-research Paper and keep our 1 Great Scientist for Education.

As for exploring, it would be useful to see if there are any other lands to our North

Back to the top of the roster... haphazard1 up next.

PS - I hope everyone is looking forward to the World Cup... especially the England vs USA game... I work for an American company in England, and several of my colleagues from the US have been contacting me this week, to talk about that game......

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

To bulb or Not bulb Paper:

I think we should aim to complete research of Theology on the exact same turn as our next Great Person is born. If we get a 2nd Great Scientist, we can then bulb Paper and some of Education right away. If we get a 1st Great Engineer, we would likely self-research Paper and keep our 1 Great Scientist for Education.

Sorry, I don't like the idea of Researching Paper regardless of whether our 3rd Great Person is a Great Engineer or Great Scientist, unless we commit to finishing Paper right after Theology one way (bulbing) or the other (hard research).

If we do get a Great Scientist, bulb Paper and bulb over half of Education, we would complete Education by Researching the rest of it, right?

If we do get a Great Engineer, save him for TUN, research Paper and bulb over half of Education, we would complete Education by Researching the rest of it, right?

Trading away Theology:

Hopefully, we can trade Theology for Code of Laws, Currency, Calendar, and other Technologies significantly smaller than Theology that some AI has. We can also gift Theology to the Theocracy loving AIs that have nothing to give in return.

Religious Conversion, Theocracy or Pacifism:

We can adopt Theocracy and possibly stay there for the Favorite Civic Diplomatic Bonus. The Pacifism bonus may not be as advantageous as we might like to believe. We would need to convert to a Religion to reap the usual benefits of Pacifism or Theocracy. In preparation for War or in its execution, we can afford to convert to a Religion for the 2 XP bonus per Military unit built. Otherwise, we might not want to risk converting to a Religion.

Trading World Maps:

Once we have Paper, of course we trade World Maps with all AIs and their Maps will either tell us where the four critical Resources are or at least where they aren't.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Stick with tech plan then and go for GLib in HC, SP in Cap and Parth in OW.

T0 - Slider to 0% to save cash, Three Clams - Granary, Rice Marble works Marble rather than rice, Esp 4ept to Zara, gift Mono to Justin for diplo.
T1 - Granary whipped in Pigfish, Trade Fish for Corn to Izzy.
T2- Curses, Wboat by sugar land is killed by Barb Galley, Sally demands Aesthetics after much deliberation refuse - Feel we can cope with the -1, GS not a GE born.
T2 - Whip Granary in Rice Marble, Cap SP
T3 - Barb Galley destroy three clams fish boats, Rice Marble Granary to Galley, Oasis Wheat Charoit to Parth
T5 - Barb Galley comes from nowhere to take out our one galley!! We are going to lose fish near Pig Fish
T6 - Barb Galley moves away from PigFish??
T8 - Whip Lib in Pigfish
T9 - GP born in Mecca (that will be Holy Shrine), whip Galley in Rice Marble
T10 - Hindu holy shrine built by Sally, Toku converts to Hindu

We can work a sci or 2 in pigfish although we may want to grow?? There is one worker just finished farming FP near Horse Copper with movement left, other two workers mining silver near cap.

Galley is on way to engage Barb Galley, after that will need to deal with galley which was near three clams but has retreated to sugar island.

We are about 5 turns off Theo.

There is new land to the west of Justinian with one barb city there just to far inland to see. Zara gone for Feudalism, no tech trades available.

I was swapping capital between Corn and Cottage to avoid growing one more into unhappiness untill silver mine completed.

View attachment 254928

Regarding the attachment:

It would appear that we need not fear that Zara Yaqob will attack us, unless we provoke him by conversion to a "false" Religion.

We need to build more Galleys:

Bad luck in regards to losing the Galley, Work Boat and possibly some Nets. We will need to build several Galleys to defend our Nets; at least one for each of ThreeClams and PigFish. We will want a third (or even fourth) Galley for transferring land units between Continents which can serve double duty by being stationed in ThreeClams and PigFish for Net defense when not actively transporting land units.

Well done, Mighty Dwaarf!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[haphazard1]

Back again, after being devoured by work most of this week, and I find I am up.

I should be able to review the save and post a turnset plan tomorrow, then play over the weekend -- maybe Sunday to allow time for comments and discussion. If this is not quick enough, I will have to ask for a skip.

Interesting "Most Powerful" list -- Zara and Isabella are the only people weaker than we are. That makes me feel better about a possible Ethiopian sneak attack, anyway.

Bad fortune with the barb galleys. We need to get a unit (or a city) on to Sugar Island to fogbust that area and prevent an ongoing harassment by barb galleys.

For everything else...need to look at the save and think a bit before I comment.

 

[haphazard1]

Hmmm, just checked the progress graphs. We are not doing badly as far as turns played -- there was the "almost half way" warning in the maintenance thread.

Interesting graph squiggles for Phoenix Rising just before 100 AD. Score drop, big power increase then a small drop. Heavy round of emergency military whips, perhaps?