SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

Making AIs who have Technologies we want Friendly:

We need to make as many AIs Friendly as we can who have Technologies we want. There is a strong possibility that a Friendly AI will trade us a "Monopoly" Technology.

Providing Resources:

We should concentrate Resource trades to AIs we want to make Friendly first where that is a realistic possibility.

Shared Technologies:

We can get a +1 Shared Technologies Diplomatic bonus with Justinian I by trading just 7 Technologies to him. For Mehmed II, Saladin, Zara Yaqob we would need 10 Technologies. For Isabella and Tokugawa we would need 20 Technologies. However, there may be a bug with Zara Yaqob & Shared Technologies, since I've traded well over 10 Technologies to him without ever getting the Shared Technologies bonus. I can't confirm or deny any of the others in actual Game play, since I don't usually play Diplomatic Games with the other Opponents we have. The data provided here is from one of the XML files.

We can get a +1 Shared Technologies Diplomatic bonus with Justinian I without too much effort. With a little more effort, we can get this bonus with Mehmed II and Saladin. The others are not worth the effort.

Note that the AIs do forget (slowly) that you have traded a Technology to them, so occasionally, 1-2 more Technologies more than expected may be needed, but this is somewhat rare.

Remember shared Religion bonus and Favorite Civic bonus can be huge.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Is it really worth many hundreds of hammers to try to lock the AP to a specific religion, when we don't really care what religion it is? We can spread Confucianism (or Taoism, or whatever) to our cities as easily as spreading Hinduism. Yes, we don't actually have those religions right now. But we barely have Hinduism either. And the AP builder -- whoever that might be -- will certainly be sending missionaries our way.

Of course, if we switch to Theocracy those missionaries will not be able to convert our cities....

There's no free lunch.

If we don't build TAP, an AI like Justinian I will and we must live with it. The Diplomatic situation becomes more complicated, if we can't control the Religious situation, at least to some degree. Tokugawa waging War against Justinian I would be good for us, if it reduces Justinian I's Population, so Mehmed II becomes our TUN Opponent. If Tokugawa becomes Confucian, he will likely attack Saladin instead, not as good for us.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Thoughts from checking the save:

- We are weak, very weak militarily. We are in fact dead last in power. The leaders are not just ahead of us, they are hugely ahead of us. We may draw a DOW from someone just because we are so weak. And I do not see any pre-built units, either. If we get a surprise DOW from Zara, we will lose cities. We must get some more military this turnset.

- Zara is about to finish Feudalism, so he will have longbows defending his cities. If a war starts, we will be on the defensive and his cities will be invincible. We can not afford a war right now with Zara.

- That galley of Zara's probably has a settler onboard. There is also a workboat with it. They are after either our horse site (only the horse tile itself is not covered by our culture) or more likely Sugar Island. Nothing we can do about it, either. :(

- Technology...very frustrating. :( Lots of techs we want are known by a single AI: Currency, CoL, MC, Philosophy, very soon Feudalism. None are available for trade, in most cases we do not have much to trade with. Paper, and once that is spread around Education. Enough to get what we want, yes, but it would have been nice not to have to break monopolies. Let's hope we see some techs available for trade very soon.

- Espionage. We are keeping visibility on Zara's research, which is good. We are putting the rest of our points on Saladin? Why Saladin? He is a neighbor, yes. But why not the leader Justinian? The question is whether to continue this, hoping to get Saladin's research visible, or shift the EP now? We can see Saladin's demos already, while research is still quite a ways off.

- Micro. Sleepless mentioned it, and I will repeat it (often!) below in the city-by-city section. But we have stagnant cities, below the happy caps, and not working our best tiles. :cry: This is bad, very bad. We knew we have whips for universities coming up, we should have been growing our cities, even into unhappiness, as preparation. Now our universities will be delayed and our cities are going to suffer to get back on track. :(

- That small landmass in the far west, where ice turned back our WB. I am VERY suspicious of that landmass. Ice blocks both coasts. There is what could be a line of mountains blocking the portion which can be reached by sea from the southern part. Furs with barbs (visible barb territory!) south of a line of mountains, with ice lining the coasts to prevent a landing. Mountains block the north from the south...requiring paratroopers to cross and capture the furs. Airports required to airlift the welcoming committee for the goddess.

My nasty, nasty suspicions of the scenario are looking more true by the moment. :eek:

Turnset goals

1) Complete Education (should be 3 turns, maybe 4 at worst depending on our gold reserves).

2) Start university builds everywhere -- we have 6 cities, we need 6 universities to start Oxford. So every city needs to build a university immediately, completing it as fast as possible.

3) New cities -- we have two settlers being built, due in 1 and 8 (likely more, see below) turns. Where to settle? Much will depend on Zara and if he takes one of our planned sites. :( Do we have any real interest in trying to poach a gold/fish site from Saladin? We don't have the military force to keep it, if he gets annoyed with us. I think we should settle our planned crab/fish site and get our culture working to make sure we get that crab tile. But should it be next (the 1 turn settler)? Or should we grab Sugar Island first, assuming Zara doesn't decide the issue for us?

Cities

- Capital. Why is the city stagnant, with the corn not being worked? We should always be working our power tiles. We are not at the happy cap, so the city should be growing. We are going to need pop to whip for universities and also to help build Oxford. Also, why are we building a Christian temple? The happiness may be useful eventually, but why not a military unit to improve our woeful defense situation?

The not-yet-cottage will be shifted to work the corn, to get the city growing. With Education due in 3 turns, put the hammers until then into military (spear, or maybe archer or axe?). Shift to a university ASAP, and after putting in a couple turns whip it for 3 pop. We should pop our GP right about then, so kill the scientists and one cottage. Resume the military build while regrowing.

- OasisWheat - Another city stagnant and well below happy cap. :( We need some workers here to farm the grass tile adjacent to the lake and the plains next to the oasis, so we can grow the city larger.

Continue the settler until Education finished, then put one turn into a university, followed by a 3-pop whip to complete it. (Lose the scientists and iron tile.) Regrow while building military -- spear? Maybe even an archer? Then finish the settler.

- HorseCopper - Yet another city stagnant and well below happy cap. We have a bad theme going here. :( We are working the miserable desert stone tile for 3 hammers -- we should have a farm on the river grass and get 3 food + 1 commerce instead. Settler due in 1 turn, finish it. Put 2 turns into a Hindu monastery (for later religion spread and a bit of beakers), then start university. We are pushing for max GS GPP here and need to keep the scientists, so do not whip it, just slow build.

- PigFish - Why are we not working the fish and pig tiles? :cry: Yes, we are at happy cap, but we need pop to whip universities. We should have grown this city into unhappiness as preparation for the whip. Switch tiles immediately for max food and grow, grow, grow! Hammers are scarce here and we want max overflow to feed into the National Epic, so we will keep building NE until we hit size 8, then put one turn of hammers into a university and follow with a 4-pop whip. Food is what this city has, let's use it. And we get the same whip anger for a 4-pop whip as for a 1-pop. After, go back to the NE and finish it.

- RiceMarble - a city which is growing! Excellent. :D Like PigFish, food is pretty much all we have here. So keep it growing, adding the river grass (which needs to be farmed) at size 7. Grow to size 8, starting a university the turn before growing so we can 4-pop whip ASAP upon reaching size 8. Continue the WB in the meantime, and the overflow will finish it after. Also, steal the marble from ThreeClams and work it instead of the plains forest, for +1H +2C.

- ThreeClams - growing, but small. :( This is going to be the weak link in our university program. Work max food, and continue the WB. RiceMarble's WB will also come here, which will get all three clams netted. Wish we had a lighthouse, but oh well. Once the WB is done, start the university. Plan to 3-pop whip it once the city hits size 6, but that is going to be a while. :( Oxford is going to be set back 10-15 turns as this city is just not capable of building a university any faster. :cry:

Tech

What to research once Education is finished? As my city plans above should make clear, our tech rate is going to drop for a while as we whip away scientists for our universities. :( But this will be the fastest way to get them built and then regrow so we can rehire scientists. Alternately, we could slow-build the universities and keep our scientists, at least until ThreeClams is ready and we finish whatever is left on all the universities with whips. This would give us more beakers in the short term, but fewer overall as our cities will get universities later and regrow later.

If we whip the unis early, it might be best to set research to 0% and accumulate a bit of cash. We can restart serious research once the unis are done and cities regrow enough to hire scientists again. But there will be some beakers (from CopperHorse, at least) -- where to put them?

If we wait for the AIs to be willing to trade Currency, CoL, etc., we will be waiting for some time. :( But if we research them directly, we are duplicating and spending turns on techs we might have been able to get in trade. Tough choices.

If we pick an existing tech, I would vote for CoL -- Currency seems more likely to become available in trade, since there is no longer a religion to found with CoL. Also, Caste System will be useful to us. Finally, it opens the path to CS.

But let's hear everyone's thoughts on this. This is a tough decision, and we should agree as a team on what we want to do.

Diplomacy

- Keep an eye open for tech trades.
- Watch the Ottoman/Spanish war. Do nothing for now, but if Isabella loses more cities (and especially if she loses her capital), we may need to take action.

Settling

- We have a settler in 1 turn. Where to send it? My preferences would be:

1) If Zara does not take it, Sugar Island. But maybe not the marked spot. Maybe 1 NE of that, if there is seafood in the area we have not explored.

2) CrabFish, but moving the site 1W to put the crab in first ring. We could definitely keep control of the tile in that case, and crab is a health resource we do not otherwise have.

3) HorseFish - to keep it from Zara, plus grass horse is a very nice tile to get the city growing quickly.

4) DeerFish - close to the capital for low maintenance, and the deer is already improved for rapid growth.

I do not think it is worth going for the golds by Saladin. I do not think we could keep it, even if Saladin did not beat us to the site.

Units

- Galley by Saladin to move towards ThreeClams to support, and help explore Sugar Island. Less important if Zara settles Sugar Island.
- Workers at the capital to finish cottage, then send two north to help farm at CopperHorse, RiceMarble, and OasisWheat. Workers near CopperHorse to farm there, or help at Sugar Island or HorseFish if we settle them.
- Pull back warrior from Zara's lands to our borders. We are paying supply maintenance, let's save that money.
- Exploring WB returns to net crab (if we settle CrabFish) or fish at PigFish.
 
OK, cross-posted with a couple of Sun Tzu Wu's posts.

- I am not sure we could build the AP before Justinian (or someone else) anyway.

- We do not have the Hindu votes to control the AP even if we did build it.

- If the team wants it, we can build it after the university in CopperHorse. But I don't think we should bother. Yes, it may cause trouble for us later. But I do not think it will cause a lot.

- Bonuses for gifting/trading multiple technologies. This is good information for the future. But right now, we don't have those technologies to trade. Our GDP is strong, from our Pyramid-powered Representation scientists. But we are not doing so well in other areas. Note that Justinian has 11 cities right now, with room for at least 4 more. We have six, with room (depending on Zara!) for maybe 4 more. Possibly one or two more than that, if we accept really marginal sites. Justinian is already larger than we are ever going to be, unless we conquer some more land. And he is still growing.

Mehmed is almost as large, and has even more room still available to grow. Not to mention conquering Isabella. :eek:

- We are unlikely to get any AIs to Friendly status without shared religion or favorite civic bonuses. But shared religion will also mean big diplo negatives with other civs. And we are so weak militarily right now that I do not think we can risk a war with anyone.

That leaves favorite civic -- we could convert to Theocracy and gain +diplo with Justinian and Saladin. This might be enough to get Justinian to Friendly, so he would trade CoL and Philosophy. (We would have to give up our monopolies on Paper and Education.) However, this would block any free spread of religion to our lands, as well as costing us the benefits of Free Religion (+10% science, some religion happiness). And he might not trade even at friendly -- CoL and Philosophy both have wonders associated with them, which he might want to build himself.

Should we convert (in 3 turns, since we recently went FR)? It might get us CoL by trade, and we could then direct our beakers to Currency or CS. But it might take another 10 or 20 turns to get enough favorite civic bonus to get Justinian to Friendly, by which time we will probably have resolved the current tech situation. Justinian would probably have other techs to trade by then, though.

Does anyone know just how much +diplo we need to get Justinian to friendly?
 
I can't check the save as I am packing for the trip

Do we know Feudalism? Could we snag Isabella as a vassal to save her?

I know we need military. Military or TAP? Military.
 
Nice turnset comments haphazard1 :goodjob:

I have to agree we don't need to build the AP. I would rather have another settler and some military. At the moment we are in no danger of being attacked so don't see an immediate need though a couple of spears against Zara wouldn't hurt as he has no metals.

What I would like to do is get a galley over to the barb land and when we have the required techs send a war elephant (assuming we get ivory) over to explore the barb island. Possibly do it with a sword now? In which case with 3 move galleys just as quick to go by sea (even quicker actually). Hopefully a sword will survive, then again perhaps an axe will be better especially as we have them already. sorry thats a bit waffley but will tell us if we need more techs or paras to get the fur site.

Techs? I think we should still go for music after Edu. With our current tech speed it won't take long. Gives us the chance of the GA and trade bait for the AI.

Regarding tech trading I think we should reduce the amount we actually trade to keep the AI more backwards so something like music which has no real value or alternatively compass which the Ai are slow to get especially at this level. I would definitely like to avoid trading paper/edu/philo if we bulb.

New cities. Definitely give up gold fish and move crab/fish into the inner ring will be a good idea. Hopefully sugar island will still be ours. If not I would go crab/fish (new site) then horse/fish.
 
Hello, I've finally got my labtop back. And got civ patched up, and got a look at the save.

We got a lot to do, and a long way to go. And I don't think we're in the greatest position atm. But I'm sure we can get it turned around with time.

I like the turnset comments from Haphazard1, and I agree that we need more military, I think a lot more.
I'm only disagreeing on tech path. I think we should stay on the beeline, at least as long as we can research monopoly techs on it. That gives the AI time to research other things we need, and gives us something to trade with. That means compass right now.
I can agree to Music, if we can use the artist to bulb more than we need to bulb Music. And I haven't got those numbers.

Regarding me playing, I think I'll pass for now. I'm quite busy right now, and I'm going on a holiday next friday. But I'll keep on reading, looking at the save when I have the chance, and comment when I have some.
 
Glad to hear your laptop is operational again, McArine. :) Your input is always appreciated and maybe we can get you for a turnset at some point.

Some additional thoughts and comments:

- Sleepless, I agree that we should send a land unit to that barb island to verify what is over there. If there really is a line of mountains blocking the south, and ice to prevent any landings in the south...we better start planning for getting to Flight and Fascism. Can paras start a drop from an allied city? Or does it have to be your city? We might need to control that island, which could mean needing a DOW.

- Tech trades...well, we can't control trading of Philo because the AIs already have it and we don't. At least, Justinian has it. No idea if he will eventually trade it around.

- There appears to be fairly solid support for sticking with beeline techs or unique (trade bait) techs. This is a bit of a gamble, as it means continuing to delay key economic techs (Currency and CoL) as we hope they become available through trade. But we probably need some gambles if we want a laurel. Just have to hope they pay off. Without Currency and CoL we can maybe support 2-3 more cities, but that will drive our slider down to zero. :( It is true that we are not relying on the science slider very much, and instead are getting most of our beakers from Rep scientists.

- Tech choices after Education - I see a number of possibilities. Let's hear what everyone thinks.

1) Currency (to help our economy, get markets for gold, happiness)
2) Code of Laws (to get courthouses for our economy, Caste System for more Rep scientists, open CS)
3) Music (to get the free GA, maybe to bulb him and recover the beakers invested? Plus a tradable tech that is not Paper, Education, Philo)
4) Metal Casting (to get forges for hammers and happiness, open path towards Optics, Machinery (for Printing Press), etc.)
5) Gunpowder (to enable muskets to solve our military weakness issues, open path to Chemistry and SciMeth for the beeline)
6) Feudalism (to enable longbows to help our military weakness issues, enable vassal states)
7) Compass (to help open Optics, as trade bait that is not Paper, Education, or Philo, and for harbors)

We need to check Music -- how much does it cost for our game/map/etc.? We get something like 1500 beakers + (something based on our total pop) from bulbing a Great Artist, although we would have to research (or trade for) Drama to open up Mass Media or Radio. So he would be sleeping for quite a while. Also, we can not be sure we would be first, depending on what Justinian or Mehmed are researching.

Compass could be useful -- harbors will provide health and commerce for our coastal cities, and the AIs usually do not put a lot of priority on the tech so it makes good trade bait. It also helps open the path to Optics, Astronomy, and thus SciMeth.

Gunpowder would allow us to build muskets, and opens Chemistry as a quick path to SciMeth and our beeline to Mass Media.

All the other options are known by at least one AI (or will be in a couple turns, for Feudalism).

- We need to meet Mehmed so we can see what techs he knows (and might be willing to trade), as well as to start building diplo with him by open borders, resource trades, etc. Once we explore/settle/whatever happens with Zara for Sugar Island, I propose to send one of our galleys east to seek contact.

- Military strength. We don't have any. :lol: We have 7 warriors (good, we may need spares), and then 1 spear, 1 axe, and 2 chariots. That is it. We are so weak we may draw an attack, which we are in no position to fight off right now. Zara can declare at pleased, and we are weaker than he is and reachable by land. So we are definitely running a sizable risk. We need more troops.

However, we are already paying some unit maintenance. More costs is not good for our already struggling economy. And what do we build? Archers are about to become obsolete (Zara is 2 turns from Feudalism) and are one tech (Gunpowder) from being 2 generations obsolete. So no archers.

Spears could be useful since we know Zara has horses. And maybe an axe or two -- maces are still a few techs away. We could also build catapults, in case we need stack busters or have to knock down some city defenses.

- The Ottoman/Spanish war. I will keep an eye on this, but am not too worried. Zara and Isabella are best friends, and Zara is about to finish Feudalism. Either Zara will trade it to Isabella, giving her longbows to resist the Ottomans, or he will vassalize her and join the war against Mehmed. If Mehmed has Feudalism, then he might vassalize Isabella. I don't think there is all that much risk of her being eliminated, but we can watch and if necessary intervene.

- Our next great person is due in 5 turns from Capital. Mostly even odds of a GE or a GS, with a very small (3%) chance of a prophet. How should we handle each possibility?

GE - save for UN
GS - save for bulb? Or academy in PigFish? Would currently bulb Compass (very wasteful). Anything else needs us to finish an enabling tech or two.
GP - would currently bulb Divine Right...might be sort of interesting, possible trade bait. Christian shrine in OasisWheat, not very helpful for us. Save for the goddess or as golden age bait?

Please let me know what you think, especially about tech path. I propose to play 3 turns later tonight, to finish Education and start the university construction. I will stop at that point until we decide the next tech to research. But this is enough that we will know if Zara claims Sugar Island or the horse tile with a settler. We might also get developments on the tech trade or diplo areas. I will play about 6 hours from now, so get your comments in. :)
 
We've already met Mehmed from my recollection and he is quite backwards especially as they haven't met Just/Sal etc.

GS should bulb philo? I still think going for Lib is the right move, what tech to take is a different matter as I think we could get quite deep into the MM route. We do need to avoid trading Edu at all costs until it makes no difference. I know in the test game I played I had about 3 AI in Free Reg. That is a lot of ep points/techs to bribe back to a state religion.

Did 3 clams still have a forest, if so might be worth chopping into the university?

Troops? Definitely don't think we need more than a couple of spears to deter Zara. We are a legitimate land target now but he has no offensive untis and even with Feud how many times have you seen a stack of LB's attacking you?
 
Sleepless,

We learned about Mehmed from map trades. I do not think we actually know him yet.

For bulbing Philo, the GS would not "see" Philo because we do not have either of Drama or CoL. This is why we can not see Philo on Justinian's trade screen, even though we know he founded Taoism.

Liberalism could be worth going for, just to deny the free tech to the AIs and thus discourage them from researching it. But I do not know how good a tech we could get from it -- there are a lot of techs we need before we can get SciMeth, much less Electricity, Radio, etc. One big stumbling block is Machinery (prereq for Printing Press, which is prereq for SciMeth). Then we need one of Astronomy (which requires Optics) or Chemistry (which requires Engineering).

So the short path to SciMeth would be something like Metal Casting, Machinery, Compass, Optics, Astronomy, then SciMeth. The longer path would skip Optics and Astro (leaving us in a galley-only world) and would include Metal Casting, Machinery, Engineering, Gunpowder, Chemistry, then SciMeth. So you trade Compass, Optics, Astronomy for Engineering, Gunpowder, and Chemistry -- the Optics/Astro path is 1000 beakers (base values) cheaper, enables real ships, and provides observatories for more science and more scientists without Caste System (if we need Theocracy for diplo reasons).

Anyway, what I was trying to get at is that any really expensive techs for a Liberalism grab are probably too many techs away to avoid losing the free tech to an AI. So we would have to take a cheaper tech...in which case, Philo + Liberalism may not be worth researching. Although we could always go off the beeline and take something like Nationalism -- Taj Mahal with our marble for a golden age, emergency drafting if needed, and opens Constitution for our UB for additional happiness and EP.

On troops, Zara has chariots, several of them. We have exactly 1 spear...plus an axe (crushed by chariots) and warriors (crushed by chariots) and two chariots (even up fight, but no defensive bonuses). If Zara declared next turn and sent 4 chariots (which I think he has), we would lose OasisWheat for certain, and possibly the Capital as well. We really are that weak. At least a couple of spears would be very nice to have. We also need to keep an eye on diplo and make sure Isabella (or anyone) does not trade him some metal, or he does not get some overseas somewhere.
 
We met Mehmed near the end of my last turnset. He is unhappy with us, technologically backwards, but militarily strong.

Make sure that our Galley in Arabia escorts our Workboat back home as there is a Barb Galley near Basra.

I'd permanently station one or two Spies in each of our cities to guard against theft of techs.

For the longer term, don't forget that Spies can change AI religions, which could be useful before a key vote - i.e. instigating an AI revolt into our religion, to make the most of positive Religious Diplo and wipe out negative Religious Diplo.
 
Forgot about the need for CoL/drama for philo bulb. There is a good chance Just is building AWat so he won't be trading it very soon anyway even if it's not a monopoly tech. Good idea to stop the stone trade as that would help him build it.
 
Thanks for the info on the barb galley, ianw1610! I was going to send our galley elsewhere, but will use it to cover instead. :)

I am pretty sure that 1 spy in a city provides the maximum benefit against enemy spies. This was from a strategy article some time ago, but I believe it is correct. Of course, spies are yet more units to cost us maintenance, not to mention the hammers to build them. :(

I think we stopped the stone trade because we want it ourselves to build Oxford. But denying Justinian a cheap wonder works too. :)
 
Right now:

1) Consider dropping the Rice trade to Isabella. There's no need to get to +2 Resource bonus quickly from her anymore.

2) Build walls in Capital and OasisWheat. It will take enemy Catapults twice as long to wear down our Cultural Defense with Walls. 4-8 times as long with Castles, but those require Engineering. The AI usually has only 1-2 Catapults in there attack stack and it can take a very long time to wear down the Walls/Castle. Time to build many defending units and send defenders from nearby locations.

3) When possible, try to make Saladin and Justinian I Friendly. Justinian I may be only +1/+2 from being Friendly, since he has a +1 Hidden, Fixed bonus and is already at +7. When an AI asks for or demands a Technology, we should give it, unless they are asking for Education or another extremely valuable and key Technology.

4) Yes, we can skip The Apostolic Palace; there are more important things to build; our Religious and Diplomatic situation should still be manageable, though definitely more difficult.

Near Future:

Researching Gunpowder (Muskets for defense) -> Chemistry would be an interesting option. It is a viable alternative research path to Scientific Method after Printing Press. It also opens up "early Industrial" Technologies Military Science (Grenadiers) and Steel (Canons) for moderately powerful land units plus MS provides Ships of the Line.

haphazard1, please complete Education. Then we can make the more important decisions about our Future with a bit more information.


Sun Tzu Wu
 
OK, played three turns to finish Education. More bad news than good, unfortunately. :(

- We have Education as planned, and university builds are being started where appropriate. (Some cities still need to grow, and will change builds later.)

- Zara has taken Sugar Island. :cry: This is a major mistake by us to let this happen. :(

- Zara has 6 chariots visible, has started upgrading to longbows, and has another settler built. :( I am accelerating the settler build at OasisWheat by firing the scientists, so we can be sure to get the HorseFish site. (Or wherever Zara sends the settler...he had a chariot scouting by the deer last turn.) The first settler has been sent to found CrabTown, 1 west of the original CrabFish site. The new city will be founded next turn.

- Mehmed popped a Great General. No other word of the fighting.

- Isabella asked us to declare on Mehmed. :( I considered for a while and then refused. We would get -3 with Mehmed, -1 with Zara (who is pleased with Mehmed). Isabella has nothing to trade to us even if she became Friendly, so offending her seemed the least bad choice.

- Zara is now working on Theology, original estimate was 24 turns.

So we were too slow, by about 3 turns, to get Sugar Island. :cry: Zara is amassing a considerable force of chariots, which is quite worrying. We have a couple spears in production, although they will not complete until after the university builds.

ThreeClams does have one forest left, thanks for pointing that out. This will help us start Oxford about 6 turns earlier than we otherwise could, so I have workers moving to chop.

Our available tech choices include:

- Music (10 turns)
- Currency (6 turns)
- Code of Laws (6 turns)
- Metal Casting (7 turns)
- Gunpowder (19 turns)
- Compass (7 turns)

Plus some minor stuff like Drama, Horseback Riding, etc., which I do not think we want to choose. The estimated times are at breakeven science slider (about 20%), and may get a bit longer as we whip universities and lose scientists for a few turns. But I will do my best to keep scientists assigned and working -- we need the beakers, whatever we choose to research next.

Save is uploaded. Here is the (brief) turnset log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 25 AD to 70 AD:

Turn 175, 25 AD: Chandragupta Maurya (Great General) has been born in Istanbul (Mehmed II)!

Turn 176, 40 AD: ThreeClams has grown to size 3.
Turn 176, 40 AD: Zara Yaqob has founded Debre Berhan.

Turn 177, 55 AD: You have discovered Education!
Turn 177, 55 AD: Christianity has spread in Debre Berhan.

Turn 178, 70 AD: RiceMarble has grown to size 7.
 
Why weren't Walls built in Capital and OasisWheat while completing Education? The AI is often reluctant to attack a Civ whose nearest Cities are protected by Walls.

We should keep track of when Saladin completes the 2nd Sugar and be sure we have something to trade for it.

Research path:

1) Gunpowder (Muskets) -> Chemistry (Only we can research this now) This allows Military Science (Grenadiers) and Steel (Canons), if we decide we need these early industrial era military units.

2) Compass (We should let the AI research this for us)

3) Code of Laws -> Civil Service (Bureaucracy) [We should let the AI research this for us, but we may not want to wait]

We should skip Philosophy and Liberalism, since we need neither one. We can already adopt Pacifism or Free Religion, so these Technologies have no use to us. There is some value in getting to Liberalism to keep the AI from perusing it, but I don't think its worthwhile to research both Philosophy and Liberalism to do so, when we have no other good reason to complete either one.

All Cities should be building Universities right now and Pop rushing them ASAP. Even the Settler in OasisWheat can wait.

After completing our Universities, we could try adopting Theocracy for up to 10t to see whether we can get Friendly diplomatic relations with Justinian I and trade for Code of Laws. Justinian I can be Friendly at +9 visible (not sure about +8 visible).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Quick look at the save. It looks like Haphazard1 is right about the need for paras to get to the fur site. It looks like it will be totally icebound and mountains in the way so paras or culture would be the only way to get it. Probably to many tiles away for culture to take the city but is a possibility. Know more when we see the lie of the land. Lets hope we don't lose our galley in the South to the barb one.

Trading for techs? Even if we get Just to friendly we have no trade bait at the moment. I certainly want to avoid giving out paper for Curr/CoL. If we go for gunpowder we are certainly going to have nothing to trade for a long while. I would personally rather go for music or secondly compass. Third choice CoL - CS and bureacracy run Oxford Capital.

I do think missing out on Lib is a mistake. Philo makes good trade bait and if we can get something like steel from Lib which shouldn't be to hard it will make attacking someone a lot easier. Steel etc are dependant a lot on what techs we will actually need if we have to have paras.

Edit.

I know I mentioned the forest it is also probably worth whipping the wb in 3 clams this turn with the overflow going to the uni there. Remember we need to hook up our incense as well.

Also I think we should settle the rest of the cities we can after the unis are finished regardless of the cost as most of our research will come from specs.
 
Quick look at the save. It looks like Haphazard1 is right about the need for paras to get to the fur site. It looks like it will be totally icebound and mountains in the way so paras or culture would be the only way to get it. Probably to many tiles away for culture to take the city but is a possibility. Know more when we see the lie of the land. Lets hope we don't lose our galley in the South to the barb one.

Where do you see the Fur Tile? I don't see it. It could be under the vast Majority of unexplored Tiles (obviously many of those are known to be Ocean or Shore).

Trading for techs? Even if we get Just to friendly we have no trade bait at the moment. I certainly want to avoid giving out paper for Curr/CoL. If we go for gunpowder we are certainly going to have nothing to trade for a long while. I would personally rather go for music or secondly compass. Third choice CoL - CS and bureacracy run Oxford Capital.

If we pursue Gunpowder, we can trade Paper and Education. We can't prevent the IA Civs from completing Liberalism themselves without taking it 1st ourselves, but taking Liberalism doesn't really help us Win sooner. However, we might be able to take Gunpowder early via Liberalism, but it would depend on getting a Great Scientist in our Capital in 2t:

Code of Laws -> Philosophy (via bulbing GS) -> Liberalism -> AIs lose interest in Liberalism -> take free Gunpowder for being 1st to Liberalism

Alternative to get Bureaucracy ASAP:

Code of Laws -> Civil Service (for Bureaucracy) -> Philosophy (via bulbing GS or trading) -> Liberalism -> AIs lose interest in Liberalism -> take free Gunpowder for being 1st to Liberalism

I do think missing out on Lib is a mistake. Philo makes good trade bait and if we can get something like steel from Lib which shouldn't be to hard it will make attacking someone a lot easier. Steel etc are dependant a lot on what techs we will actually need if we have to have paras.

OK, maybe skipping Liberalism is a mistake, but it will cost us researching and bulbing Code of Laws and Philosophy which we know we can eventually trade from the AI. Note my compromise solution above that researches or bulbs both Code of Laws and Philosophy.

I'd prefer to adopt Theocracy and become Friendly in in as little as 0 turns (we maybe want to wait for Universities to complete). Maybe we shouldn't have cut the trait of Stone to Justinian I; its the one Resource we have that could speed us up to +2 Diplomacy via Resource trading.

WARNING:

Please stop taking actions than cost us Diplomatic points. For example denying the Technology that Saladin wanted from us was probably not a good choice in the long run since instead of +1 Diplomacy for "You Gave Us Help" we have -1 Diplomacy for "Refusing to Help"; we would be at +7 with Saladin now; not only does that make it easier to get the TUN DV Resolution Vote from him in the end, he may trade to us "Monopoly" Technologies like Currency (in fact he would trade it, because there's no Great Wonder that requires Currency to build) once we get him to perhaps +9 visible Diplomacy.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
On diplomatic negatives, the refusal of technology was during an earlier turnset, not mine. I agree in general that we want to provide help (or tribute) to the AIs when they ask, as long as it is not a really expensive, really key tech that we have a monopoly on or plan to use for trade. Even for those it may be worth giving them to the AI -- if we plan a diplo win, we need +diplo with as many civs as possible.

The ask from Isabella to declare on Mehmed...that is a no-win situation. We were going to get negatives, it was just a question of which civs. :( Getting -1 with Spain seemed better than -1 with Zara, -3 with Mehmed, and possible war issues later.

Walls...Zara does not have any catapults (that we have seen, anyway). He does have a lot of chariots. 3 turns was not time to build walls in any case. We may want to do so later, I agree.

The fur tile is not visible, but I expect that is intentional. We will want to build caravels once we have Optics and explore the rest of the ocean, just to be sure. That barb land with the ice and mountains could be an elaborate fake. But we should keep in mind that we may need a lot more technologies than just a beeline to Mass Media.

Universities will be built ASAP, although I want that settler done from OasisWheat. Zara already has another settler built, and we have already lost one prime city site to him. :( Let's not lose more.

We just finished 5 turns of no civic changes from the swap to Free Religion; this is the first turn we can adopt Theocracy. Do we want to do so? It will cost us a little science and a little happiness, but we get +diplo with two AIs instantly, and start building up for more every 10 turns. We are going to be running 0% slider while we finish the universities and Oxford, so this is probably a good time to start running Theocracy.

Question: if we adopt Theocracy and Justinian becomes Friendly (we are very close) and offers CoL for trade...do we trade for it? All we have to offer right now is Paper, which we would prefer to keep -- and is about 70% more expensive than CoL as well. Or do we wait to finish something else and then trade that?

Stone trade...we need the stone to build Oxford rapidly. Once that is done, we can trade it back to Justinian (maybe for spices) if we want. Or maybe after we build some walls?

Tech path...this is still (obviously) not settled. We need some kind of consensus before I can resume playing, since we are generating a fair number of Rep scientist beakers even with the slider at 0%. We will know in 2 more turns which type of GP we get -- the chances of a prophet are up to 6% and rising, from Shwedagon Paya. Any thoughts on what to do if we get a prophet?

GE gets saved for UN (easy choice). GS...bulb Philo once we get our hands on CoL? We could go for Liberalism, and take Gunpowder, or Nationalism, or Chemistry, or Steel, etc. I think we really should consider Nationalism -- as spiritual, the ability to shift to Nationalism for 5 turns and draft an army could be very useful. Especially once we reach Gunpowder and get muskets.

But we need some kind of decision on what to tech right now. I favor Compass -- part of our beeline to SciMeth and Mass Media, not too expensive so we can finish it fairly soon, usually makes good trade bait since the AI does not give it priority when they can reach other AIs by land or galley. It is a good size to trade for Currency or CoL, letting us keep Paper a monopoly for now.

Let's hear from the team. I don't want to make a choice this important without getting general agreement on our path.
 
At work atm so can't quote/see the save.

Regarding the fur tile. If you look at the barb island to the West. There is a row of what seems like mountains stopping access by land and you can just see 2 ice tiles on either side which I assume are blocking sea entry. Hence as haphazard1 predicted we probably need flight. Also explains why we were told not to get Industrialism otherwise why would anyone go that far into the tech tree.
 
Back
Top Bottom