SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

First, the good news anyway:
* The bear didn't attack, and we got away.
* We've founded Hinduism!
* We've also found some marble, and it's in a good city spot, although there's maybe not a lot of forest near it.

The bad news: I forgot to switch the build to a worker :mad:

Good turn set Irgy. Two of our main goals were to keep the warrior alive and to found a religion. You did both. The religion beeline is still on track!! :goodjob:

Missing population growth in a city happens to all of us. Don't worry about it!!
 
Proposal/Question.

Since we're Philosophic and after the Oracle we'll have a GPro fairly early, why don't take CoL? Can anyone run a test in this fashion?

If possible, the plan was to get a Great Scientist as our first Great Person (for an Academy) and another Great Scientist for our second Great Person (for Philosophy).

However, what you suggest does have merit if we want to skip the Academy (it's not like our capitol has the Silver's Commerce early on, anyway). A whipped Temple plus working a Priest (in combination with The Oracle) could get us a Great Prophet pretty early. We'd just need to manually research Meditation at some point after getting Writing, in order to be able to Lightbulb Christianity (otherwise the Great Prophet would try to Lightbulb Meditation).


EDIT: Priest's 3 GPP + Oracle's 2 GPP = 5 GPP / turn * 100% = 10 GPP / turn... 150 GPP to the first Great Person = 15 turns of working the Priest.


The benefit here is that as the owner of Monotheism, we delay AIs chasing after Christianity for a bit, so we can afford to leave it for a while.

That would free up our tech path to go straight to Alphabet after Writing, followed by Meditation (since we probably won't be able to trade for it).

The downside is that we won't have much to trade for Alphabet, unless you want to give away religious techs. Doing so gets the AIs that much closer to Feudalism--which only matters if we plan to attack them.


Zara IS a massive expander and does get very annoying once he learns Gunpowder, as his Musketmen are very, very strong with their high amount of Free Strikes. With Hinduism under our belt, we may be able to justify declaring war on Zara (once he has expanded to a lot of cities) just purely for the Land Area.
 
Since we're at size 2, is possible to switch to max production and have the warrior out in 1 turn? If i'm not wrong, we can starve the city for 1 turn without losing pop, right?

Since we've already got Hinduism, I don't mind if we temporarily switch working a Corn square to a different square, such as one that provides 1 Food + 2 Hammers.

If you can manipulate the squares worked in order to get us a Warrior in 2 turns and to grow in 2 turns, then you will have met my request to spend no more than 2 turns on a Warrior, while still getting us to Size 3 in time for the Worker.
 
Let's face facts. The Corruption cost of that distant Marble city will mean that we won't be able to make it to Christianity from The Oracle. Not to mention the fact that without Sailing or The Wheel, there's no chance of having the Marble connected to our capitol and no chance of a low-production city settled near to it to complete The Oracle on time.
Corruption is a Civ3 term. Now it's Maintenance :p
But i agree it's too faraway for the Oracle. Not only maintenance, but the risk to move a settler there.
(...)
No, the way it works is that you assign the Weight BEFORE you meet a second AI. The interface allows you to do so. If you wait until after meeting another AI, then if that AI meets you or if you don't change the Weights on the turn that you meet them, they'll get Espionage points automatically attributed to them, meaning that we'll have 2 AIs spending Espionage points on us right away, instead of just Zara spending them on us.
Not clear. That's how it works if you do nothing.
Once you meet the 2nd AI the points are equally distributed. What is the difference between do nothing and assign the same weight to both? But i don't use much Espionage. Or at all.
It won't in the short run. The most that you can get is +1 Commerce per city. With 2 (or even 3) cities, that'll be 2 Commerce per turn (or let's be generous and say 3 per turn). The Wheel costs 139 Flasks. 139 / 3 = around 46 turns. Bye, bye Oracle.
OK, let's live without the wheel. Primitive!
 
Corruption is a Civ3 term. Now it's Maintenance :p
Maintenance just doesn't sound as scary. :eek: :D You are right, of course.

Not clear. That's how it works if you do nothing.
Once you meet the 2nd AI the points are equally distributed. What is the difference between do nothing and assign the same weight to both?
Maybe it's worth it for you to try out, but I will try to explain it one more time, this time with pictures.

SCENARIO 1: DO NOTHING
Here're the result of me doing nothing on the Espionage (Ctrl + E) screen:
attachment.php

Note that Weights are not assigned, so Espionage points are distributed evenly.

What ended up happening is that most of the AIs were spending Espionage points on me. Huayna did not, as we'd just recently met and apparently he really hated Pericles and thus had spent 100% of his Espionage points on Pericles.

However, the AI that I met first, Pericles, spent points on me, as did the other two AIs.


SCENARIO 2: ASSIGN A WEIGHT OF 1 TO THE FIRST AI THAT YOU MEET
I ran the scenario again, but after having met Pericles, before meeting any other AI, I pressed Ctrl + E to get to the Espionage screen (you can also use the icon at the top right of the screen). Then I assigned a Weight of 1 to Pericles. There is no visible effect until you start to meet at least one other AI.
attachment.php


Fast-forward Scenario 2 to a point where I've met a couple of other AIs and have known them for a few turns. Shaka still assigned Espionage points to me, as was in love with Louis (Pleased) from the start (or at least after getting the +1 Peaceful Relations bonus).

Pericles assigned Espionage points to me, as I had done the same to him.

However, Louis assigned 0 Espionage points to me and this situation would likely remain this way until I became his Worst Enemy or until I started assigning Espionage points to him.

Here's a picture of what you see after having met a couple of other AIs. Notice how all of our Espionage points are going to one AI.
attachment.php



In addition to the advantage of having most (but as Shaka proved, not always ALL) other AIs assigning 0 Espionage points to us if we assign 0 Espionage points to them, I had enough Espionage points invested in Pericles to see his Research. In the first scenario, where Espionage points were spread out evenly, I had no such intelligence on any of the AIs.

That's free intelligence that you can leverage for trading and for tech piggy-backing that you won't get if you are too lazy to visit the Espionage screen at least once in your game. And my method really is both SIMPLE and EFFECTIVE--you simply set the option and forget about it until mid-game when Espionage points start rolling in.
 

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Obviously, we'll need to run some more test games before we get a good idea of how we're going to set up the next couple of PPPs, and hopefully, the test games can get most of the basics in place.

However, who's going to play next? BLubz is busy, I'm sick (I can make comments but playing in real-time is too risky with me coughing every couple of minutes--care for a misclick of attacking a Barb Warrior in a Forest, anyone?), and we don't really have an updated roster with Irgy listed at the top of it.

Shall we ask for two volunteers, one for the next turnset and one for the turnset following it?
 
Okay, someone asked why. Now I am allowed to spam the thread. Actually, this one's pretty simple to explain.

I don't consider this spam at all. Thanks for the quick lesson on early espionage. I used it in the Diety BOTM, but it wasn't until we met the other AI, which was very late in the game. Since I'm relatively new to BtS, any tips like this are much appreciated.
 
If possible, the plan was to get a Great Scientist as our first Great Person (for an Academy) and another Great Scientist for our second Great Person (for Philosophy).

However, what you suggest does have merit if we want to skip the Academy (it's not like our capitol has the Silver's Commerce early on, anyway). A whipped Temple plus working a Priest (in combination with The Oracle) could get us a Great Prophet pretty early. We'd just need to manually research Meditation at some point after getting Writing, in order to be able to Lightbulb Christianity (otherwise the Great Prophet would try to Lightbulb Meditation).


EDIT: Priest's 3 GPP + Oracle's 2 GPP = 5 GPP / turn * 100% = 10 GPP / turn... 150 GPP to the first Great Person = 15 turns of working the Priest.


The benefit here is that as the owner of Monotheism, we delay AIs chasing after Christianity for a bit, so we can afford to leave it for a while.

That would free up our tech path to go straight to Alphabet after Writing, followed by Meditation (since we probably won't be able to trade for it).

Just to make sure I'm clear on what is being discussed, are we considering taking CoL with the Oracle and bulbing Theology with a great prophet? I think that would be a safe option as Theology is an expensive tech, so I don't think the AI will learn it before we can pop a GPro. Do we know that a GPro will be able to bulb the whole thing? This needs to be tested.

I also like the idea of researching Alphabet after Writing. We'll have a ton of techs to learn (e.g. wheel, hunting (for dear), pottery, AH, IW just to name a few) and it will be cheaper to research Alphabet than to self-research a few of these and then get Alphabet.
 
Since we've already got Hinduism, I don't mind if we temporarily switch working a Corn square to a different square, such as one that provides 1 Food + 2 Hammers.

If you can manipulate the squares worked in order to get us a Warrior in 2 turns and to grow in 2 turns, then you will have met my request to spend no more than 2 turns on a Warrior, while still getting us to Size 3 in time for the Worker.

Before we play the next turn set, I think we need to run at least 2 tests. One where we switch to a worker immediately and another where we finish the warrior and grow to 3 at the same time (2 or 3 turns?). These tests should be run all the way until we get the Oracle.

We also have to decide if we're going to build settler #3 or worker #2 first. Either way, we need to be done with building stuff when PH comes in so that we can start on the Oracle.

Also, we need to determine if it's better to mine the silver or the plains hill first. I'm leaning toward mining the silver first since researching Writing was the bottleneck. That may have change now, which makes the test more important.

Final note, try to have at least 5 warriors prior to BW just in case (not mandatory since city #3 can build one or two before it's connected).

Can someone else run these tests? It can be done with my last save since the surrounding area isn't important for the test. In the mean time, I'll work on updating the save to match what we now know about the world. I don't expect to finish tonight... it's past my bedtime. :sleep:
 
I noticed that Irgy had not uploaded the save yet, so I just did it. I used my forum name rather than his, but it shouldn't matter, right? I also assumed that the save in post 389 is our save.
 
I just looked at the graphs. Our culture sticks out like a sore thumb (with only 1 turn of Hindu culture). It's only going to look crazier as the game goes on and we found more religions. Everyone is going to think that we're smoking something! :smoke:

It appears we are the only team to have grown to 2 pops before building a worker since everyone else's score is flat. Although, it's hard to tell with XTeam since their first save was so late. Someone on their team played 50 turns...
 
Here are the results of my test:

T11 - Delhi grew to size 2. Did not switch production.
T18 - Poly -> Agri. I let Delhi stay full steam on growth (continue warrior).
T20 - Delhi at size 20. Work Hill for extra commerce. Switch to worker.
T21 - Got warrior.
T28 - Agri -> Masonary.
T39 - Masonary -> Mono. Finally got worker. Build settler.
T47 - To avoid getting Mono before founding Bombay I swith work hill to forest.
(I want second religion in Bombay).
T56 - Start working Silver.
T57 - Had to switch Mono to PH to avoid getting it before Bombay (risky).
T58 - Got settler. Building warrior. Nothing much to do with worker, yet.
T59/60 - Found Bombay, get Mono (Judiasm in Bombay), research BW.
Switch to Hindu + OR.
T71 - Get second worker. Build to settler. BW in one.
T72 - BW -> PH.
T77 - PH -> Writing. Will take 13 turns.
T79 - Whip settler for 1 pop. That pop is useless now, and growth is fast.
T90 - Build city 3 (name too long). Discover writing, finish Oracle, get Theology.
Research at the wheel. Build Temple @ Delhi (for priest).
T91 - Whip temple in Delhi. Only 1 pop and he is useless.
Building library in Delhi and Bombay.
T95 - Delhi back at 5. Hire priest. GP in 13.
T99 - Wheel -> Pottery.
T108 - Got GP, but forgot to discover Meditation :-(. Fire priest, hire 2 scientists.
T113 - Got Meditation, Lightbulb CoL.

Summary:
4 Religions. Pottery in 1 turn.
7 Warriors. 3 Workers. 1 Conf missonary (christian missionary failed to spread).
Delhi at 6, with 2 scientists. Next GP (hopefully GS) in 14.
Could have got CoL earlier if payed close attention.
Bombay kept building warriors. Some warriors could be traded for workers.
Bombay is pretty useless except for that silver...
 
I start updating the posts in page 1.
I'll try to setup a decent roster, but feel free to give me your comments.

Turnsets lenght: 20 can be OK for some more 2 TSs, after that i think it's better 15.
I won't try to set "easy" numbers, since often happens that one finish some turn earlier than the planned one.

OK, done. Comments, please.
 
I don't consider this spam at all. Thanks for the quick lesson on early espionage. I used it in the Diety BOTM, but it wasn't until we met the other AI, which was very late in the game. Since I'm relatively new to BtS, any tips like this are much appreciated.

@ Dhoom I agree. Lots of posts are fine. I was just overwhelmed by the 25 paragraph ones over and over. You are a very educated player and we are all glad to have you on the team.
 
I start updating the posts in page 1.
I'll try to setup a decent roster, but feel free to give me your comments.

Turnsets lenght: 20 can be OK for some more 2 TSs, after that i think it's better 15.
I won't try to set "easy" numbers, since often happens that one finish some turn earlier than the planned one.

OK, done. Comments, please.

Okay comments look good to me. I am available to be the UP player so "Got it".

We have a bit of testing to do but I will try to get some kind of PPP to use as a starting point out late tonight.
 
Sorry to continue, but i still do NOT understand, despite Dhoom's detailed post.

Please correct where it's wrong:

we meet the first AI1 and we assign 1 EP to him.
doing so or do nothing changes nothing, since he will do the same until he meets another AI.

Then we meet a AI2.
We do NOT assign EP to him, so all our EPs go to AI1.
a) we're the first opponent this AI will meet, he automatically assigns to us all his EPs.
b) If and only IF he already met AI3, we can avoid to have AI2 assigninig the EPs to us.

Pros i can see:
we accumulate many EPs versus AI1
Cons i can see:
we know nothing about AI2.
This can be worst the later we meet AI2.

Now, we have enough EPs versus AI1, but we need to at least see the Demographics of AI2.
It seems obvious to assign all our EPs to AI2 to recover, then start balance between the 2 AIs depending on needs.

Where is the above wrong?

Please bear in mind that i use only passive espionage, i barely build 1 spy or 2 in all my games just to help avoid sabotages.
 
It appears we are the only team to have grown to 2 pops before building a worker since everyone else's score is flat. Although, it's hard to tell with XTeam since their first save was so late. Someone on their team played 50 turns...
Perhaps someone on their team didn't upload the first saved game to the system after their first turnset, and their early turnsets were 25 turns each.

Yes, to anyone looking, we've given away the fact that we founded an early religion. However, they've all started their games, so they can't use that info to "go back in time and change their research path." So, no real loss in letting others know.

It's easy for them to think that we are founding religions purely for the sake of getting Temples and Cathedrals for a Cultural win; few will suspect that we are also grabbing the religions in order to reduce world-strife, thus making a Cultural game far more peaceful (and effective--the more religions, the more Cathedrals you can build) or a Diplo game far easier to win on the first vote.
 
Convincing BLubmuz about Espionage, with a few cool "Top Espionage Tricks" buried in my paragraphs of text :)
Sorry to continue, but i still do NOT understand, despite Dhoom's detailed post.

Please correct where it's wrong:

we meet the first AI1 and we assign 1 EP to him.
Essentially. We assign a WEIGHT of 1 to the first AI that we meet, not 1 Espionage Point to that AI. The way that Weights work is that they are relative to each other.
If I assign Weights as follows:
AI1 = Weight 2
AI2 = Weight 4
AI3 = Weight 0
AI4 = Weight 2

Then our Palace's Espionage Points will be distributed as follows, each turn:
AI1 = 1 Espionage Points added to the total accumulated against AI1
AI2 = 2 Espionage Points added to the total accumulated against AI2
AI3 = 0 Espionage Points added to the total accumulated against AI3
AI4 = 1 Espionage Points added to the total accumulated against AI4


doing so or do nothing changes nothing, since he will do the same until he meets another AI.
Correct. If we are the first competitor met by an AI, we will have all of their Espionage Points assigned to us initially. This behaviour will occur whether it is the first AI that we meet or the last AI that we meet.

However, consider that we are not making it a priority to meet the other AIs, but instead are making it a priority to find nearby locations to settle. Therefore, most AIs will meet another AI before they meet us, meaning that they will have already started assigning Espionage Points to a different AI instead of to us initially.


Then we meet a AI2.
We do NOT assign EP to him, so all our EPs go to AI1.
Correct.


a) we're the first opponent this AI will meet, he automatically assigns to us all his EPs.
If that is true. I'm under the belief that this situation won't be the case for most of the AIs, due to our "don't find them, let them find us" current Foreign Policy.


b) If and only IF he already met AI3, we can avoid to have AI2 assigninig the EPs to us.
We can't 100% avoid it, even if he has already met AI3. Shaka proved this fact, since he was Pleased with the other AI that he had met and thus wasn't assigning Espionage Points to that other AI.

Pros i can see:
we accumulate many EPs versus AI1
That Pro is true, but I think that there are a couple more Pros.

I admit that my knowledge comes from playing, not from looking at the SDK (Software Development Kit), but my anecdotal knowledge tells me the following:
2. An AI to whom we assign no Espionage Points tends to assign less Espionage Points to us. Often that can mean 0 Espionage Points assigned to us.
3. The AIs like to "compete with" or "one up" the human player in terms of Espionage Points. If we assign 0 to them, but they still assign some to us after having met at least 1 other AI, they are more likely to assign a smaller percentage to us. On the other hand, if we even assign a small amount over time (1 per AI, for example), they will assign a big percentage to us, just to stay "far ahead" of our Espionage Points' spending.
4. Knowing what tech a single AI is researching at all times is far more valuable information that knowing the Demographics of all of the AIs. Following the AI tech rate, you can often predict what similarly-sized AIs will be researching. You can also piggyback techs properly--for example: "oh, they are learning The Wheel on turn 75--if we wait until they are done, researching it ourselves will be cheaper." You can also plan tech trades a lot more appropriately, for example "oh, that AI is researching Aesthetics, let's go and grab Math/Iron Working/Currency instead, since one other AI knows Aesthetics and once they both know it, we can get one of them to trade it to us."


Cons i can see:
we know nothing about AI2.
We will still know a lot.

We will know how many cities they have once we can trade with them.

We will know when they learn Bronze Working and Monotheism, since AIs will almost always switch to the corresponding Civics IMMEDIATELY AFTER LEARNING THE CORRESPONDING TECH if they learn those techs early on.

If they learn Writing first, we will know about it (Open Borders agreement becomes available). Similarly, if they learn Alphabet first, we will know about it.

We can know who they like and dislike from the F4 Glance screen. We can also use this screen (or the act of repeatedly talking to them and then not making a trade) to find out who their Worst Enemy is.

We can find out what their best military unit is by repeatedly talking to them and then not making a trade.

We will know what Wonders they have built (even National Wonders with BUFFY).


This can be worst the later we meet AI2.
To be honest, even if the AIs did not behave the way that I have observed when you assign 0 Espionage Points to them, it takes a REALLY LONG NUMBER OF TURNS for an increment of 1 Espionage Point per turn to even give you Demographics info. In my example screenshot where 4 different AIs were receiving 1 Espionage Point per turn from us, only 2 of those AIs had their Demographics Info revealed--the other two did not. Over time, as those other 2 keep assigning Espionage Points to us, the threshold that we'll need to surpass in order to see their Demographics Info (as well as for any other Passive or non-Passive Espionage Info-gathering or Espionage Mission) WILL GO UP! So, it might take a great number of turns before we can reach that threshold and we might never reach it if said AI assigns 4 Espionage Points to us per turn.


Now, we have enough EPs versus AI1, but we need to at least see the Demographics of AI2.
Why do we NEED to see the Demographics Info? What info from the Demographics screen are you after? Can't getting this info wait until later in the game? It seems to me that by your strategy, this info WILL NOT COME SOON, ANYWAY!

Why do I make that claim?
Well, for starters, with only 4 Espionage Points per turn and no fractions being allowed to be assigned, the maximum number of AIs for whom you could have Demographic Info are 4 AIs.

Further, it will take you a VERY LONG TIME for enough Espionage Points to accumulate against all 4 of them in order for you to see all of their Demographic Info.

For a good part of the early game, the most that you'll see is the Demographics Info for 2 AIs. What about the Demographics Info for the other AIs? How useful is it really to have that small bit of info for one more AI, compared to the Pros of my approach?


It seems obvious to assign all our EPs to AI2 to recover, then start balance between the 2 AIs depending on needs.
If you assign Espionage Points to an AI at a small rate, they will assign Espionage Points to us. If you assign none to them, many will assign none to us. Later, once we've got about 16+ Espionage Points to assign per turn, we can switch our target. We'll "catch them with their pants down," getting a big leap up on relative Espionage Points out of the gate.


Please bear in mind that i use only passive espionage, i barely build 1 spy or 2 in all my games just to help avoid sabotages.
There is a reason for that: your Espionage Points allocation is hurting you. What matters the MOST in Espionage Costs is your relative Espionage Points accumulated against an AI compared to the relative Espionage Points that they have accumulated against you.


What matters for Spy Missions a bit are other factors, such as:
- How many Espionage Points TOTAL, AT ANY TIME, EVEN ACCUMULATED BEFORE MEETING A SINGLE OTHER PLAYER, each of you and the AI in question have both generated. This "hidden total Espionage Points earned" even applies to Espionage Points that were spent.
- Costs can be reduced if the city you perform the mission on has our State Religion.
- Costs are influenced (reduced or increased) by distance to our Palace. Advanced Player Tactic: Build your Forbidden Palace (which costs more than your Palace) near your Palace's original location. Build your Palace again (a very cheap building) close to the AI that you want to run Spy Missions against. Then Spy Missions (such as City Revolt, used to capture cities) become cheaper. Plus, you'll have a nearby Palace to reduce the Maintenance of captured cities.
- Costs can be reduced if you have a Trade Route with that city (if you have Open Borders, there is a good chance that you will have such a Trade Route).
- Possibly other factors that I am forgetting.


But, out of all of those, the biggest influence on Espionage Cost is actually your Espionage Points spent on that AI vs that AI's Espionage Points spent on you.

If you had a way of reducing the Espionage Points spent on you, you'd have an amazing tactic for being able to run several mid-game successful Espionage Missions, instead of just being able to afford one or two, due to the AIs having spent many points on you. Such a tactic could let you "save up" our Espionage Spending time for a couple of the AIs until near the end of the game, when we might want to switch their Civics around.

Oh wait, we do have such a tactic! We're discussing it right now! :goodjob:


Now, if you want to steal a tech, what we'll probably do is build a few Courthouses so that we can generate many Espionage Points per turn. Then we'll target an AI who has spent 0 Espionage Points or only a few Espionage Points on us. We'll quickly catapult ahead of them--but you will also find that they will start spending Espionage Points on you, since you started spending on them. That's the nature of the beast--but the trick is to be able to spend more on them than they can spend on you, without letting them accumulate many points on you over time.

The Espionage Points on Zara will probably mostly end up being Passively used, or for limited Spy Missions, such as the odd City Revolt, as he'll spend a lot on us. But for other AIs, we can potentially use this tactic to steal techs, steal their treasury, influence their Civics at a key point in the game, etc.


Now, if I haven't convinced you of the value of "zero to sixty" acceleration on our Espionage Points (come on, a car reference has to work for you, right BLubmuz?), then there is one more very convincing point for doing so in a game where we care about Diplomatic Relations:
Again, this info is from my anecdotal experience, but it would appear that if your Espionage Points against an AI are about 20% or more higher than their Espionage Points on you, when your Spy is CAUGHT (which can happen with reasonable frequency), there appears to be no Diplomatic Penalty!!! That point is HUGE!


If your Espionage Points spent on an AI relative to theirs spent on you are close in value or theirs is larger, then when your Spies are caught, there is a (permanent, or at least long enough to appear to be permanent) Diplomatic Penalty of -1!!! That's huge in a Diplo game and even not so great to get in a Cultural game! So, any trick that we can do to avoid getting these negative modifiers, such as the "zero to sixty" approach, should be leveraged to the maximum in this game.
 
Code of Laws from The Oracle and Targeting an Early Great Prophet for Theology
Just to make sure I'm clear on what is being discussed, are we considering taking CoL with the Oracle and bulbing Theology with a great prophet?
Yes, that is what is being discussed.

Consider, though, that we WILL NOT REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF RESEARCH THAT WE MUST PERFORM before building The Oracle. Both Christianity and Code of Laws require us to research the Writing tech after Priesthood. So, we will still need to settle the Silver City (or possibly find a city to the north or east--no Mineable Resources appeared in the west).

I think that would be a safe option as Theology is an expensive tech, so I don't think the AI will learn it before we can pop a GPro. Do we know that a GPro will be able to bulb the whole thing? This needs to be tested.
A World-buildered test should be easy: give yourself a Great Prophet. Give yourself the early religious-path techs:
Mysticism, Meditation, Hinduism, Masonry, Monotheism, Writing, and maybe another one or two, but I think that's it. Then, hover over the Great Prophet's Lightbulb icon and see how many Flasks it tells you are required.

Then World-build your City (using Edit City Mode) to have 1 more Population Point. Again, hover over the Great Prophet's Lightbulb icon and note the new number of Flasks required. If the value did not change, end the turn once and check again.

With those two numbers, we'll be able to figure out the relative difference for each Population Point in our empire.

That said, from what I recall, Theology can usually be mostly Lightbulbed early on, with maybe just a couple of turns' worth of research remaining, but a test will tell us for certain.


I also like the idea of researching Alphabet after Writing. We'll have a ton of techs to learn (e.g. wheel, hunting (for dear), pottery, AH, IW just to name a few) and it will be cheaper to research Alphabet than to self-research a few of these and then get Alphabet.

I thought that most of the team might like this idea. We still may need to fit in another Worker Tech after Writing, depending upon where we settle City 3, such as Animal Husbandry or Fishing, but such a cheap tech is still better than being forced to manually research Code of Laws prior to researching Alphabet.

Our dearest deer can wait to be Camped until after we learn Alphabet.
 
Now, if I haven't convinced you of the value of "zero to sixty" acceleration on our Espionage Points (come on, a car reference has to work for you, right BLubmuz?)
Thanks for the explanations. Only this: "zero to sixty" is used only by some barbarian Civ.
More civilized Civs use 0-100. :p

Still, i can understand :lol:
 
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