SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

All your points make sense and it's a great wonder for any VC. Probably the most useful of the WW.

Probably you're right about city #4 to grab the stone, but probably i prefer to settle it firther E, if there's a decent spot and decent chances to box Zara.

But, since there're too many "if" we must clear the fog to remove them. There's no point in settle a crappy city just to block Zara. Let him settle all the crappy cities he likes.
 
Please also set Research back to 0% on this turn, to make it easier for the next player not to forget to use Binary Research.

I've quickly scanned the latest posts and this is the only added comment that I see for my turn set. I will play now. I've got my detailed PPP printed out, so I should be fine with respect to MM. My biggest goal will be to keep warrior 2 alive. Wish me luck!!

EDIT: I'm logged into my IM client if anyone has any last-minute comments. Else, it's too late as I'm playing now.
 
BAD NEWS!!! :cry:

Warrior 2 was standing on the cows with good visibility across the lake. I stayed in place for 2 turns with no sign of wildlife. I was mainly concerned about the bear to the west, but I was still being very cautious. I moved NW to the pigs. There was only 1 square that I couldn't see and the lion just happened to be there. Warrior 2 was killed by a lion that had only a 32.2% chance of winning. To add insult to injury, I only hit him once and he hit me 6 times. :sad:

We have two options. I could switch from Settler 2 to Warrior 3, completing him in 4 turns (citizens work 2 1F2H tiles and 1 citizen works a 2F1H tile). None of the corn has been farmed yet, so we're really not putting that many hammers into the settler right now. This will give us warrior 3 on T45, so he'd be able to get about half-way to his fog busting spot by T50. I'll have to run a test so see by how many turns this delays Settler 2.

Or, we could continue with Settler 2 and take our chances with the barbs.

Neither scenario is what we wanted, but it is what it is... I'll put up a test game ASAP and wait for the team to decide what to do next.

EDIT: Looking at this again, I could have gone south around the lake (near the coast), but I was more worried about the bear down that way than the lion to the north. SORRY!!
 

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i don't think we have many choices other than build again the warrior.
 
OK, I just ran a test. I built warrior 3 (T45) and then continued on settler 2. Warrior 3 was in his fog busting location on T51.

I checked WB every turn and the bear disappeared on T49 and the lion attacked warrior 1 and died on T52. Human barbs started spawing east of our capital (both warriors and archers) on T50. No more barbs spawed on the peninsula. I think warrior 3 made it there just in time.

Silverado was settled on T58 (3 turns behind our plan). However, T58 is the turn that the silver mine was completed, so we are able to work the improved silver the turn it is completed.

Monotheism comes in on T61 (1 turn behind) due to not working commerce squares while building warrior 3.

Warrior 4 is due out of the capital on T62 (2 turns later). Warrior 5 is due out of Silverado on T64(two turns later).

I think this is the less risky option which only puts us 1 turn behind in science (thanks to not having Silverado working unimproved silver) it will also delay Settler 3 by 2 turns (may be less since the PH mine will be done before settler 3 is completed).
 
i don't think we have many choices other than build again the warrior.

I agree, but let's wait for the rest of the team to weigh in.

EDIT: I'd also like input on how to get warrior 3 to his spot if we build him right away. A direct beeline or south around the lake by the coast, which adds 1 extra turn and fog-busts fewer tiles while the warrior is moving.
 
OK, I just ran a test. I built warrior 3 (T45) and then continued on settler 2. Warrior 3 was in his fog busting location on T51.

I checked WB every turn and the bear disappeared on T49 and the lion attacked warrior 1 and died on T52. Human barbs started spawing east of our capital (both warriors and archers) on T50. No more barbs spawed on the peninsula. I think warrior 3 made it there just in time.

Silverado was settled on T58 (3 turns behind our plan). However, T58 is the turn that the silver mine was completed, so we are able to work the improved silver the turn it is completed.

Monotheism comes in on T61 (1 turn behind) due to not working commerce squares while building warrior 3.

Warrior 4 is due out of the capital on T62 (2 turns later). Warrior 5 is due out of Silverado on T64(two turns later).

I think this is the less risky option which only puts us 1 turn behind in science (thanks to not having Silverado working unimproved silver) it will also delay Settler 3 by 2 turns (may be less since the PH mine will be done before settler 3 is completed).

I'm not available for running a test game anytime soon, so I'll take your word for it on the numbers that you ran.

Settler 2 coming out a bit later isn't that HUGE of a deal, as we won't quite have the Silver Resource mined, but it sounds like in your testing, we'll at most miss using the improved Silver for 1 turn--one turn because the turn that a Resource is completed, it can be used.

Right now it sounds like we're faced with either giving up the west to the Barbs or getting another Warrior ASAP. We still might lose the west if we lose Warrior 3, but that plan still gives us the smallest amount of risk of facing a couple of Barb Archers from the west.


A third alternative would be to stick to our planned build order and throw the first few Warriors out west, expecting to lose a couple of them. That option doesn't really sound all that great, either, as people want to see what's to the east, not what's to the west.



Possible Micromanagement Tip
Mitchum, I would suggest that 1 turn saved on building Settler 2 will be worth as many as 6 less turn of working an unimproved Corn in favour of working a 1F + 2H square. Therefore, be ready to switch a Corn for a 1F + 2H square as much as you need to, both for building that Warrior 3 ASAP and for potentially getting Settler 2 faster with Hammer overflow, if you can.



So, it looks like we need to choose between:
a) Stick with our original build order. From there, we can use our Warriors that come in the late-50s and early-60s of turns to either stick with our exploration (and ignore the west Barbs) or send then west first, as a clean-up crew.
b) Change our build order and trust that Mitchum will do a reasonable job of micromanaging to maximize Hammers, as well as maximizing possible Hammer overflow back into the Settler, keeping us on track as much as possible for getting that Settler out. With the change to our build order, we'll aim to replace the western Warrior ASAP, with the hopes that doing so will reduce or prevent the spawning of Barb Archers in the west.


Note that I intentionally grouped the options of sticking to the same build order as one voting option, option a), so as not to unfairly split a vote. Another vote would need to occur if option a) wins.

I have to go out right now, but I'm fine with option b).
 
So, it looks like we need to choose between:
a) Stick with our original build order. From there, we can use our Warriors that come in the late-50s and early-60s of turns to either stick with our exploration (and ignore the west Barbs) or send then west first, as a clean-up crew.
b) Change our build order and trust that Mitchum will do a reasonable job of micromanaging to maximize Hammers, as well as maximizing possible Hammer overflow back into the Settler, keeping us on track as much as possible for getting that Settler out. With the change to our build order, we'll aim to replace the western Warrior ASAP, with the hopes that doing so will reduce or prevent the spawning of Barb Archers in the west.


Note that I intentionally grouped the options of sticking to the same build order as one voting option, option a), so as not to unfairly split a vote. Another vote would need to occur if option a) wins.

I have to go out right now, but I'm fine with option b).

Just being the devils advocate here but since it is Mitchum's TS shouldn't he have posted the vote. :p LOL

I also vote B. We need to shore up the west ASAP and I trust Mitchum to MM the builds to maximize as much as possible.

The other thing we need to decide is if he will still stop at T60 or will continue until the settler is finished as we originally planned
 
Just being the devils advocate here but since it is Mitchum's TS shouldn't he have posted the vote. :p LOL

I also vote B. We need to shore up the west ASAP and I trust Mitchum to MM the builds to maximize as much as possible.

The other thing we need to decide is if he will still stop at T60 or will continue until the settler is finished as we originally planned
I already expressed my opinion, in other words i voted B.

No, i think Mitch can stop @60 as planned.

OK, since 4 votes are casted, it's not a disrespect for Havr and Irgy, but i think Mitch can go ahead. Good luck, you seem to need it!

Talkin'bout votes, tomorrow is the deadline for Tata. If no sign arrives from him, i'll PM Alan asking to contact him again.

BTW, nice Avatar, Bill.
 
OK, since 4 votes are casted, it's not a disrespect for Havr and Irgy, but i think Mitch can go ahead. Good luck, you seem to need it!

Hmmm... I don't know if I should be offended or say "Thank you!" ;)

I found a way to get the settler out 1 turn sooner by starving the city (didn't lose a pop, but got down to 1F in the basket). This delays warrior 4 by 1 turn in the capital but speeds up warrrior 5 from Silverado by 1 turn (so it's pretty much a wash). It also comes out 4 beakers and 1F ahead, which should't really change our decision.

So, I will go ahead with plan B (switch to warrior 3 now) and squeeze out settler 2 one turn sooner (T56). I'll wait 30 minutes before I play.
 
Hmmm... I don't know if I should be offended or say "Thank you!" ;)

I found a way to get the settler out 1 turn sooner by starving the city (didn't lose a pop, but got down to 1F in the basket). This delays warrior 4 by 1 turn in the capital but speeds up warrrior 5 from Silverado by 1 turn (so it's pretty much a wash). It also comes out 4 beakers and 1F ahead, which should't really change our decision.

So, I will go ahead with plan B (switch to warrior 3 now) and squeeze out settler 2 one turn sooner (T56). I'll wait 30 minutes before I play.

Make it so, number 1!:scan:
 
All your points make sense and it's a great wonder for any VC. Probably the most useful of the WW.

Sorry, I still didn't see any good argument why +3 beakers are better than +1.5 GP-points... this is exactly the difference between Pyramids and Parthenon.

I know that the +3 beakers "sounds" fantastic, while the +1.5 GP-points looks something "not-so-great", but this is exactly why we need to focus our discussion on numbers and implications, not intuition.
 
OK, we have another situation. On T43, there were TWO lions: one on each of the tiles flagged in the photo. On T44, one of the lions disappered in the fog and the other one was on the tile indicated by "Lion T44". Then they both disappeared until T47, when one of them appeared on the tile marked "Lion T47". I have not seen the lions since.

It is T49. Human barbs will begin to spawn next turn based on my testing. I am 3 moves away from my fog busting spot, but there are two lions and one bear out there somewhere. One of the lions could easily be on the pig tile.

Thoughts?

BTW, this makes me feel a little better (but not much). With two lions and a bear out there, I was bound to run into one of them no matter what I did. Since Unclethrill had killed 1 of the 2 lions, I just assumed that another one hadn't spawned since 1 warrior, 1 lion and 1 bear were fog busting the area.
 

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OK, we have another situation. On T43, there were TWO lions: one on each of the tiles flagged in the photo. On T44, one of the lions disappered in the fog and the other one was on the tile indicated by "Lion T44". Then they both disappeared until T47, when one of them appeared on the tile marked "Lion T47". I have not seen the lions since.

It is T49. Human barbs will begin to spawn next turn based on my testing. I am 3 moves away from my fog busting spot, but there are two lions and one bear out there somewhere. One of the lions could easily be on the pig tile.

Thoughts?

BTW, this makes me feel a little better (but not much). With two lions and a bear out there, I was bound to run into one of them no matter what I did. Since Unclethrill had killed 1 of the 2 lions, I just assumed that another one hadn't spawned since 1 warrior, 1 lion and 1 bear were fog busting the area.

What was the route you took? For it we can know where he COULDN'T have been in T48 and from it is actually possible to compute the probability that he is on the pigs...
Thats the only clue I can think of...
 
What was the route you took? For it we can know where he COULDN'T have been in T48 and from it is actually possible to compute the probability that he is on the pigs...
Thats the only clue I can think of...

I came straight from the capital (warrior moved west each turn). I could see the lions because of Delhi's cultural border.
 
I came straight from the capital (warrior moved west each turn). I could see the lions because of Delhi's cultural border.

OK, there is 10% chance he is on the pigs,
and 12.5% chance he is on the square above the pigs.

(since you see other squares at T48 he must have been on one of those two tiles and you can calc the probability for the other two from there).

I say: W->SW->NW->N (I hope I got the fog-busting position right).
You delay fog-busting position by 1 turn, but minimize chance of lion as he can't move to water. First move is with minimal risk (10% only).
 
OK, there is 10% chance he is on the pigs,
and 12.5% chance he is on the square above the pigs.

(since you see other squares at T48 he must have been on one of those two tiles and you can calc the probability for the other two from there).

I say: W->SW->NW->N (I hope I got the fog-busting position right).
You delay fog-busting position by 1 turn, but minimize chance of lion as he can't move to water. First move is with minimal risk (10% only).

Yes, looking at all the possible places that the lion I saw on T47 could have gone in 2 turns (none of which were in my visible range), there is a 10% chance that he is on the pigs. However, there is also a small chance that lion 2 is there as well.

The safest route is to head due S around the lower lake, but this gets me to the forest on T55 at the soonest, which could be too late...

No matter what we do, there is risk involved, so I'd like to hear what level of risk is acceptable from the rest of the team.

It's late in Europe, so I may have to finish my turnset tomorrow... :sad:
 
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