SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

War? For what is it good?

Spoiler :

So Sal is the buddhist founder and he's our neighbour?

Let's just plan a war before he gets to Camel archers.

With what army? Axeman won't be useful at this stage of the game. Zara, a relatively backwards AI is already researching Monarchy. It'll only be a turnset or two before we see Longbowmen everywhere.

Do we plan to detour to Construction for Catapults, Metal Casting + Machinery for Macemen, and forget about the race (amongst SGOTM teams) to the United Nations?

With 31% of the world being Buddhist, we can secure Saladin's votes just by spamming more Cities and snagging his religion.

In fact, I would suggest that we instead aim to keep pumping out Settlers. If we can get even ONE City on his continent, not only will that City be closer to the Buddhist Holy City and thus have a high chance of spreading, it will be next to a Religious-oriented AI who has a Holy City = Saladin will go out of his way to spread his religion to our City there with a Buddhist Missionary.


If we are getting 4 of his Espionage points, it means that he likes his neighbour(s) and is Pleased or higher with him/her/them. As Mitchum said, there's no way that 31% of the world's population can be attributed to just 1 AI, so we know that there is at least one other Civ with Buddhist Cities, and since we control all of the other religions, the chances are very high that this other Civ is running Buddhism as their State Religion and thus already is buddy-buddy with Saladin.

Why piss off multiple AIs that we are counting on for their votes?

What good are their Cities if the population from those Cities will be used to vote us to victory if we DO NOT declare war and thus DO NOT anger said AIs?


If Saladin chooses to declare a Holy War on us, that'll be his fault, not ours, so we won't suffer negative Diplo modifiers.


If we focus on continuing to spam Settlers, though, especially ones sent on Galleys, we'll likely get Buddhism before he gets it in his mind to declare war on us, meaning that he'll start liking us enough to avoid a war and we'll just get his population-based votes "for free."


Besides, what you'd REALLY want in a war against Longbows (Protective ones from Saladin, at that!) are Trebuchets. Engineering is an expensive tech and is far off of our main tech path.

I agree that fighting Saladin's Camel Archers is tantamount to suicide. But fighting his Protective Longbowmen falls into the same suicidal category. It's better to City-spam and court him as an ally.

We got a lucky break that Buddhism was founded on a continent reachable before Astronomy. Let's try to take advantage of that fact and secure Buddhism for ourselves.

How about a Short PPP?

Spoiler :

Tomorrow i'll look at the save and post a PPP.

Is that still going to happen? It's getting to be pretty late at night in your part of the world right now...


Can you maybe just get a PPP up for the first two turns (the end of UT's turn and your next turn) so that we can advance the game a bit? It'll be a LOT easier to generate an appropriate test game for tech-trading if you play the turns one-at-a-time like that for a bit.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Unclethrill: Saladin's Work Boat came from where?

Spoiler :

T136
Met Saladin thanks to a WB next to the warrior W of Bedrock. He will not give OB and we are his worst enemy.

Did Saladin come from the west or the north? I was assuming he came from the west, since Bedrock's cultural borders would likely have spotted a Work Boat coming from the north before the Warrior west of Bedrock did, but upon further inspection of the map, there is still a bit of fog of war that a Work Boat could have snuck through if it came from the north.

Either way, it should have been obvious from which direction Saladin came, since the Warrior west of Bedrock (Warrior 1) can see enough of the nearby Coast to be able to tell for certain.

Upcoming Whipping

Spoiler :

We have 7 more turns of Caste System for Delhi's 3rd Great Person.

After that, we won't necessarily need Caste System for a while except to expand Cities' borders. I'm going to recommend that we whip the Monastary in Riverdale, so that its cultural output can double ASAP. Since the City won't have much in the way of cultural buildings to build, I'd suggest building a Confucian Missionary there next, to help spread out (at least until we get Buddhism) our State Religion.

Bedrock could really use that Granary so that we can whip out 1 to 2 Galleys. I'm thinking of cancelling my previous idea of getting a Worker there next, in favour of:
completing the Settler, then chopping a nearby Forest (the Three Clam City's Forest would give us sufficient Hammers), followed by growing the City's Foodbox to half full and then whipping the Granary, followed by whipping Galleys.

We'd probably need another Forest chop to get the first Galley started, which could possibly come from the GHFor square to the NE + E of Bedrock.

So, if we manage to get a Worker to the Three Clams location, we can chop the Forest there for a "free" 20 Hammers before the City gets settled.

It is a bit of a shame that we won't have the Organized Religion bonus in Bedrock, so maybe we can consider whipping a Confucian Missionary in Delhi before whipping the Aqueduct and starting on The Hanging Gardens. We should have enough happiness and population to do this double whipping.

The other option is to whip the Confucian Missionary in Riverdale after whipping the Confucian Monastary, followed by starting to build another Confucian Missionary there.

Settlers

Spoiler :

We'll soon have 2 more Settlers coming out, one from Wheaties in 3 turns and one from Delhi in 2 turns (counting a Forest chop going into Delhi's Settler).

Depending upon where Saladin came from, I'm going to recommend that we "prepare" these 2 Settlers to try to block Saladin.

Now, once an AI explores your land with a Work Boat, they are "allowed" to "pretend" that they "learned" about where you were. I've watched AI Work Boats using the World Builder and they do cheat--they know how to seek out other AIs in the early game in order to establish diplomatic contact. BUT, on a map with a neighbouring Galley-reachable-continent, the AIs also "pretend" not to know where your land is until they've spotted it with a Work Boat. Once they've "spotted it," though, expect a Galley with a Settler + Archer/Axeman/Spearman/Swordman/Longbowman at any point soon thereafter.

Now, we can "mess" with Saladin like we did with Zara by settling so close to his capitol: but for Saladin, we just want to trap his Settler party.

So, we can put 2 Settlers in place to set up a "trap." We have no rush to actually sit these Settlers down immediately.

Spoiler :

- until we get the Fish + Pig improved in the Great Person Farm, sharing the Fish with the Crab City would just mean that the Great Person Farm would have to work an unimproved square
- until we get a Work Boat for the Clam City or at least the Marble or Cow improved, there's no rush to settle the City
- until we either improve another square for Bedrock to work or else we whip Bedrock to Size 2, Rice City will not be effective if it steals Bedrock's Cottage but leaves Bedrock working an unimproved square

However, we should get our 2 Settlers in place, depending upon where Saladin came from. He cannot settle on the turn that he lands, so as long as we set up our Settlers and Warriors such that we can see all of the Coast, we can trick Saladin into landing his Settler party. Then, BAM, we settle our two Settlers that have been sitting around, effectively trapping his Settler party within our borders.


So, if Saladin came from the north, we can prepare to settle the Three Clams City and the Rice City.
If he came from the west, we can prepare to settle the Rice City and the Crab City.

 

[unclethrill]

I saw the WB on the turn we made contact to the SW of the Warrior that is directly W of Bedrock. So he is definitely in the West and he has to come to us from the SW so that is where we need to send our settlers.

Also, I think that we made a good choice not spreading religion to GPF. Right now it is our best chance to get Buddism and not have to leave our continent.

Quick Question.
Isn't our plan to build the UN and then give it to Zara?

If that is the case, then we need to be the most populous nation, right?

Then we need to focus on securing our land and getting of our landmass with more settlers as soon as possible unless we plan to use our war declarations for population growth.
Just something to keep in mind!

 

[unclethrill]

Settlers

Spoiler :

We'll soon have 2 more Settlers coming out, one from Wheaties in 3 turns and one from Delhi in 2 turns (counting a Forest chop going into Delhi's Settler).

Depending upon where Saladin came from, I'm going to recommend that we "prepare" these 2 Settlers to try to block Saladin.

Now, once an AI explores your land with a Work Boat, they are "allowed" to "pretend" that they "learned" about where you were. I've watched AI Work Boats using the World Builder and they do cheat--they know how to seek out other AIs in the early game in order to establish diplomatic contact. BUT, on a map with a neighbouring Galley-reachable-continent, the AIs also "pretend" not to know where your land is until they've spotted it with a Work Boat. Once they've "spotted it," though, expect a Galley with a Settler + Archer/Axeman/Spearman/Swordman/Longbowman at any point soon thereafter.

Now, we can "mess" with Saladin like we did with Zara by settling so close to his capitol: but for Saladin, we just want to trap his Settler party.

So, we can put 2 Settlers in place to set up a "trap." We have no rush to actually sit these Settlers down immediately.

Spoiler :

- until we get the Fish + Pig improved in the Great Person Farm, sharing the Fish with the Crab City would just mean that the Great Person Farm would have to work an unimproved square
- until we get a Work Boat for the Clam City or at least the Marble or Cow improved, there's no rush to settle the City
- until we either improve another square for Bedrock to work or else we whip Bedrock to Size 2, Rice City will not be effective if it steals Bedrock's Cottage but leaves Bedrock working an unimproved square

However, we should get our 2 Settlers in place, depending upon where Saladin came from. He cannot settle on the turn that he lands, so as long as we set up our Settlers and Warriors such that we can see all of the Coast, we can trick Saladin into landing his Settler party. Then, BAM, we settle our two Settlers that have been sitting around, effectively trapping his Settler party within our borders.


So, if Saladin came from the north, we can prepare to settle the Three Clams City and the Rice City.
If he came from the west, we can prepare to settle the Rice City and the Crab City.

We need to focus our settlers in the SW of our landmass to both block and to get buddhism to spread there.

 

[unclethrill]

I also think that as soon as we get Buddhism in any city, whoever is playing needs to stop so we can decide how best to spread it quickly and when to switch.

IMO we need to switch ASAP to buddhism since the Buddhists will likely have more techs to trade.

 

[BLubmuz]

Sorry, but i didn't found a moment to open the save and to post yesterday.

I agree it'd be better if i play 1-2 turns to see the trades.

Situation:
6 cities, 3 settlers in production: 3, 5, 9 turns.
Alpha next turn, then research to 0 since we have only the cash to finish Alpha.
There's a chop almost completed for Dehli, do we use it for the settler? Then can i road to Silverado/GPF?

Settling locations.
1) 2W of crabs. I think i can move immediately the warrior in place to better see the sea.
2) rice
3) 3 clams
I need to have a priority. I suppose 3 clams will be last

To avoid to just hit enter and stop, i need to know:
IBT:
a) what i do if Sal makes a demand?
b) what i do if Zara makes a demand?
c) what i do if anyone offers a trade?
d) in case nothing happens IBT, what techs do i have to prioritize?
We can't see any now, but surely Zara has:
Hunting - AH - Archery
Fishing - Sailing

Since we are the worst enemies of Sal, he will not trade, i think

Units:
i posted above about the warrior to crabs location
do i have to spread Confu in Wheaties? when?
there's also a worker waiting orders: road/stop pigs?

hmm... this is not my game, definitely... kill'em, kill'em all it's not applicable

 

[Irgy]

So, as I recall, the point of not researching alphabet was to discuss what to do if Zara makes a demand. Unless I missed it already, why don't we start that discussion?

If we're certain he's going to be our opponent, we can fairly safely tell him to go jump. On the other hand, I don't really see the need. Ever since I started to take diplomacy seriously, I've been inclined to accept all trade demands, and see it as an almost free relations boost. So I'm not really sure.

It depends partly on whether Zara is going to have lots of tech to trade to us and we have not enough to give him in return, or the other way around. I expect we'll have plenty of tech to give him, being the fairly pathetic civ that he is in this game. We don't want to refuse a tech demand, and get a relationship penalty that stops us trading it.

 

[havr]

Just a quick reminder to you guys that we still need to find some special resources to win the game. With all the planning of how to get a quick diplo win the real bottleneck might well be those resources.

A resources seeking mission should be a priority.

Here is the real guess: are those resources within pre-Astronomy range or not?
Either way I think some WB exploration now can save time later.

 

[Mitchum]

I agree it'd be better if i play 1-2 turns to see the trades.

I think playing two, one-turn mini turnsets is the best. We'll hopefully get IW on turn one and AH on turn two (or vice versa). In the test game, I was able to get IW, Fishing, AH and Sailing for Alphabet and Math. I think we want to avoid trading (or gifting) anything that leads Zara to Liberalism. Once we know where Iron and Horses are, we may want to reprioritize worker actions to hook them up or slightly change our settling locations or priorities.

There's a chop almost completed for Dehli, do we use it for the settler? Then can i road to Silverado/GPF?

The original plan was to chop into the settler as you suggested. Then I think we'll need to build another improvement around Delhi. Once we get our GS, we'll need improved tiles for Delhi to work. I think Dhoomstriker had suggested a mine to help with our Hanging Gardens push.

We already have a road connecting Delhi and the GP Farm. I don't see the need to have a road between Delhi and Silverado or Silverado and the GP Farm right away. We'll have a lot of other things we'll need the workers to do instead, I think.

We can't see any now, but surely Zara has:
Hunting - AH - Archery
Fishing - Sailing

He researched Iron Working during my turnset.

do i have to spread Confu in Wheaties? when?

I'm pretty sure that he has been sitting in Wheaties for > 6 turns, so we should be able to spread him right away with the best odds possible.

 

[Mitchum]

Just a quick reminder to you guys that we still need to find some special resources to win the game. With all the planning of how to get a quick diplo win the real bottleneck might well be those resources.

A resources seeking mission should be a priority.

Here is the real guess: are those resources within pre-Astronomy range or not?
Either way I think some WB exploration now can save time later.

Yes, this is a good point. Rather than exploring with work boats and having to come back later with a settling party only to lose a city spot, I've heard Dhoomstriker say that we should instead load settlers / units on galleys for our exploration parties so that we can grab the city spots as soon as we see them.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The Forest Chop in Delhi

Spoiler :

There's a chop almost completed for Dehli, do we use it for the settler?

It is indeed the plan to chop out the Settler and I see no reason to change that plan.

As I said, it is preferable if we get our Settlers in place but do not settle them until either:
a) an AI lands with a Settler party and forces our hand
b) we have an improved square that the City can work without stealing one of the squares from a nearby City. I already listed the examples in my previous message under the heading "Settlers," inside of the Spoiler tag within that Spoiler tag.

Roads are a Low-priority Worker task

Spoiler :

Then can i road to Silverado/GPF?

To what end? I don't see it.

Both of these Cities are connected to our trade route due to not needing the Sailing tech for Trade Routes that are completely within our cultural borders. We are LEVERAGING the fact that we founded a lot of religions to avoid needing to build these Roads, because our super-expanded cultural borders = extra Trade Routes.

It would be counter-productive to use up our valuable Worker turns on Roads that we do not need.

Roads for movement? Hardly. The fact that we're chopping the Forest in Delhi will already make Delhi's Settler get to the Crab location very quickly (within 4 turns of movement). Without chopping but with a Road there the entire way, it would actually take the Settler just as long to get there. So what good will building new Roads be if we can spend our Worker actions on other tasks (such as this Forest chop) to gain equal value (getting the Settler there at the same time) plus more value (all of the other Worker actions that we can do in the same amount of time) out of the Workers?

Hmmm, maybe we need Roads for the Trade Routes to our new Cities? Well, we're going to try trading for Sailing ASAP. All of our new Cities will be Coastal Cities. So, we won't need Roads to them for Trade Route purposes.

Finally, we just finished hooking up the Wheat (for extra Health) and we are running Representation (for extra Happiness). We don't even currently need any Roads to connect up Resources. So, the number of Roads that should get built in your turnset should be ZERO.

The only exception to that rule of ZERO Worker actions is when we are moving a Worker from one location to another and need to perform a Worker action outside of our borders to avoid wasting a Worker action. In that case, a partial Road can be built, since no other improvements can be built outside of our cultural borders.

Cardinal Directions (north, east, south, and west)

Spoiler :

1) 2W of crabs. I think i can move immediately the warrior in place to better see the sea.

You meant 2E, right? 2W would be in the Ocean.

Do you guys want to find another way to talk about east and west? Would left and right work better?

It's really important that we're clear what each other means when we give a direction. There are two ways to do it:
1. Go with the current method of east = right and west = left and then, in addition to saying "1NE," we say "1NE (2S of the GPig)." That way, if the author of the comment messed up, the reader can correct the author to say, "no, you really meant 1NW, right?" Also, if the author of the comment was correct but the reader is sometimes confused between east = right and west = left, mixing them up, then this way the reader has a method of double-checking. If you make your relative reference use only "north" and "south" references (such as 2S of the GPig), then it becomes even clearer, because we all seem to be okay with the fact that north = up and south = down.

2. Let's switch how we talk about directions. Let's talk about left (= west) and right (= east). So, send the warrior 1UL (up + left) = 1NW.
But, and please admit the truth, if you often confuse left and right (many people do), then this method won't work either.

Thus, I strongly recommend that we make it a policy, whenever we talk about a direction or location in the game, that we clarify this direction or location with an additional reference, such as "2S of the GPig" or "NW + N of the GCopper." We can't ALWAYS just use north and south, but try to use north and south references more often, when possible.

To avoid to just hit enter and stop, i need to know

Spoiler :

a) what i do if Sal makes a demand?
Give in to him demand, unless it is for Theology. We want to make him happy enough to Open Borders with us. Buddhism will spread a lot more readily if we can Open Borders with him. However, we can't afford to give him Theology, since if he builds The Apostolic Palace, it will be GAME OVER for us.

Eventually, we'll have to either gift him a tech or switch into No State Religion, but since we're soon going to be building The Hanging Gardens, it's not a great time to switch into No State Religion.

Then again, that's a very good possibility for an upcoming current turn:
We have 2 turns left to build the Settler in Delhi. If we build a Confucian Missionary in Delhi next, before the Aqueduct, then we won't worry about losing the Organized Religion bonus.

Riverdale only uses the Organized Religion bonus when we whip, which won't happen for 7 turns.

Wheaties is building a Settler and then a Worker, so it, too, doesn't need the Organized Religion bonus.

A possible reason NOT to switch into No State Religion is that we currently have Zara on good terms with us because we are running Confucianism.

We should check the XML to see if Zara will trade with someone that he is Cautious with or if he needs to be Pleased or higher in order to trade with us, as he may go down to Cautious if we switch to No State Religion. Then we can better decide if we should consider switching into No State Religion for a few turns.


b) what i do if Zara makes a demand?
If he asks for Writing, give it to him.

If he asks for anything else, refuse him. We'll still be able to trade with him (at least until we switch into No State Religion, and even then we almost for certain should still be able to trade with him), and we can't should not give him any of our techs outside of a trade.


c) what i do if anyone offers a trade?
If it is Saladin, Alt + Tab out of the game and ask us. Saladin will not trade with us in a normal trade right now, because he hates us. But, the game can randomly cause Saladin to offer a trade to us. We would not be allowed to negotiate the trade. We would either accept it and make the trade or else we would lose the chance to make the trade. So, it should be a team decision.

If Zara offers, just hit "Care to negotiate?" and then exit the screen. There will be no diplomatic penalty for refusing a two-way trade, regardless of what is on the table (techs, Gold, World Maps, etc). There is only a diplomatic penalty if you refuse a one-way demand.

What about if an AI offers to gift us a tech?

Spoiler :

Note that there is no diplomatic penalty for refusing a one-way gift, but we are unlikely to see such a scenario in our game, since we have to be technologically in last place ot get gifts. Further, unless we are worried about WFYABTA (see Mitchum's previous message for a link that gives more details on WFYABTA), there should be no reason to refuse a gift.

d) in case nothing happens IBT, what techs do i have to prioritize?

Spoiler :

We can't see any now, but surely Zara has:
Hunting - AH - Archery
Fishing - Sailing

Recall that he also knows Iron Working, as we watched him research it.


Here is the order of importance of techs, in my mind:
Sailing > Iron Working > Fishing > Animal Husbandry > Hunting

If Zara does not have Writing, I am willing to make an exception to the above order and you can take the most expensive tech (likely, Animal Husbandry) that he will give to us in exchange for Writing.

However, if Zara has Writing, then there's no way that we'll get Iron Working, Fishing, and Animal Husbandry in trade for Alphabet. And I'm not will to forego the trade for Fishing, as we absolutely need Sailing from Zara in trade. So, even if you can get Iron Working + Animal Husbandry in your first turn of trade, that is NOT the correct choice. We MUST get Fishing, as we want to get Sailing from him.

Further, if the choice is between Iron Working + Fishing or Animal Husbandry + Fishing, take the Iron Working + Fishing choice, as Iron Working is the more expensive tech and it'll be relatively easy to get Animal Husbandry in our second trade with Zara because the tech is cheaper.


So, what should we trade? Math or Alphabet? Well, the only "fear" factor is that Zara is getting Monarchy. Monarchy = Alphabet in AI-AI trades. It's one of the first "instant trades" that you'll see in the game between AIs. One minute an AI learns Alphabet and the next they learn Monarchy. Or vice versa. It happens all of the time.

So, our first trade with Zara should be using Alphabet, to cut off that trading possibility.


Now, it is POSSIBLE that Zara will only want to trade Fishing and Animal Husbandry (because he'll trade those 2 techs even without knowing any other AIs), without wanting to trade us the other techs. That situation could happen if the other AI that he met has yet to learn those techs.

In that situation, we can wait a couple of turns to trade with Zara, to see if the other AI will learn the relevant techs or if Zara will meet Saladin, who might also know those techs and thus would make Zara more willing to trade them with us.

However, even if we wait a couple of turns to trade with Zara, we'll still want to trade away Alphabet on the last turn that Zara is researching Monarchy, just to prevent the possibility of getting left out of the trading game by Zara trading for Alphabet with another AI instead of getting Alphabet from us.

Saladin

Spoiler :

Since we are the worst enemies of Sal, he will not trade, i think

Correct. An AI won't trade with their worst enemy, except when the game generates an in-between-turn randomized trade offer. So, if you see one of these trade offers, Alt + Tab out of the game and ask the team for input on the trade.

As a rough guideline, in case you post a message and no one answers for several hours, we want to hold onto our tech monopolies of Code of Laws and Theology for as long as possible, so if the trade is for one of those techs, we probably want to refuse it. All other trades, if they sound like good trades and no one replies in the thread, can probably be accepted.

If the DEMAND (different from a trade) is for Code of Laws, we can give it to him, in order to improve relations with him to hopefully get Open Borders. If the DEMAND (different from a trade) is for Theology, refuse it, as we can't let a Buddhist build The Apostolic Palace (we might lose the game if he does!).

Confucian Missionary

Spoiler :

do i have to spread Confu in Wheaties? when?

Spread him immediately. We've sat him there for about 9 turns. Spending any longer time to spread him will not help us.

Worker 1 and partial PPP

Spoiler :

there's also a worker waiting orders: road/stop pigs?

I already gave details of what to do here. We're going to complete the Forest Chop of the Forest where the Crab City will go, since we didn't end up doing that yet.

I will copy and paste the PPP actions that I already started to write, since you must have missed reading them:

-----------------------
T149
Religion: Possibly switch Religion to No State Religion
Wake and Move Worker 1 1W GFor (W + W of the GPig and N + N of the Fish) and Chop/Stop
Wake the Confucian Missionary in Wheaties and attempt to spread Confucianism there
Wake and Move Warrior 2 1NW PFor (E + E of the Crab and NW + N + N of the Fish). Why here and not 2W like BLubz suggested? Well, we can spot Saladin trying to land a boat better if we just go 1NW. Plus, going 2W messed up a chance at a free Forest growing there. Going 1NW is already on a Forest, so we can't mess up a Forest growth chance there.

T150
Researched Alphabet -> Currency (that's my suggestion, anyway, as it will be a while before Bedrock will be free to build an Aesthetics-based Wonder)
CHANGE SCIENCE RATE: Research 0%
Move Worker 1 1W GFor (W + W + W of the GPig and SE + E of the Crab) and Chop
-----------------------

Note that I have added in an altered version of your Warrior movement suggestion for T149.

Killing 'em

Spoiler :

hmm... this is not my game, definitely... kill'em, kill'em all it's not applicable

Call it defensive warring. We won't attack you if you don't attack us.

Some noteable exceptions to the above rule are:
Unless you give us a good reason to attack you. Such as switching into Free Religion. Or hording your religion (Buddhism) and not spreading it to us. Or stealing the only Fur Resource in the game.

There will be no killing 'em all, since Eldine would disapprove and that (sexy?) naked Goddess would leave our world forever. What a shame that would be!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Galley + Settler Exploration Parties

Spoiler :

A resources seeking mission should be a priority...

Either way I think some WB exploration now can save time later.

Yes, this is a good point. Rather than exploring with work boats and having to come back later with a settling party only to lose a city spot, I've heard Dhoomstriker say that we should instead load settlers / units on galleys for our exploration parties so that we can grab the city spots as soon as we see them.

Indeed. The age of Axeman rushing is over. Similarly, the age of Work Boat exploration is over.

We can't win a war with just Axeman at the present and we can't explore with Work Boats at the present. We need Settler-loaded Galleys to explore. That's why I've been talking about building 1 to 2 Galleys in Bedrock. We should be able to get our first Galley out around the start of my turnset, assuming that we complete the Granary first.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, i've read your posts.

Now, let's summarize:
- no roads, unless partial to avoid losing movements
- give in to any reasonable demand
- finish the chop near Dehli, then start a mine in the riverside GLHill
- spread Confu in Wheaties
- no civics/religion changes

Trades:
we need fishing to have sailing, so i must try to obtain that in the first round and sailing in the second
we can have AH without Hunting, but not Archery (for what we care)
IW is usually traded for Math with an AI. surely on Monarch, not sure on Emperor

BTW i usually not confuse E with W, fact is that the 2 keys are close and i can hit the wrong one. I will pay more attention in future.

Anyway, i proposed to move the warrior in the Crabs City location, so where we want chop, right?
warrior moves 1NW, 2 E of crabs.

I will play 2 full turns, not much to do outside trades. I'm usually a good trader (other than a good warmonger), so don't worry

No settlers ready, so i will post a dotmap to avoid mistakes and we can discuss the priorities after the first break.

I can play tomorrow if you confirm the above, let's call it a PPP.

BTW i agree for the warrior/settler/galley exploring party, the only problem is that we can build galleys only in Stony.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

OK, i've read your posts.

Now, let's summarize:

Is there any reason why you don't want to start with my suggested PPP as your template and add to it or change it, as necessary?

-----------------------
T149
Religion: Possibly switch Religion to No State Religion
Wake and Move Worker 1 1W GFor (W + W of the GPig and N + N of the Fish) and Chop/Stop
Wake the Confucian Missionary in Wheaties and attempt to spread Confucianism there
Wake and Move Warrior 2 1NW PFor (E + E of the Crab and NW + N + N of the Fish). Why here and not 2W like BLubz suggested? Well, we can spot Saladin trying to land units from a boat better if we just go 1NW. Plus, going 2W messes up a chance at a free Forest growing there. Going 1NW is already on a Forest, so we can't mess up a Forest growth chance there.

T150
If an AI Trade Offer or Demand appears, follow the Spoiler text under the heading "To avoid to just hit enter and stop, i need to know"
Researched Alphabet -> Currency (that's my suggestion, anyway, as it will be a while before Bedrock will be free to build an Aesthetics-based Wonder)
CHANGE SCIENCE RATE: Research 0%
Move Worker 1 1W GFor (W + W + W of the GPig and SE + E of the Crab) and Chop
If Zara does not have Writing, find out what tech or techs he will offer to us for it.
If Zara already has Writing, find out if he will give us Iron Working + Fishing for Alphabet. Find out if he'll give us anything more than that. If he won't give us both of those techs, find out what else we can get in addition to Fishing.
Save the game
Report the tech trading situation to our thread
-----------------------


The moves for T150 are intentionally not completed. If you move all of your units such that no unit has any movement point left, you get yourself into the same risky situation that you are in now, where a single Enter keypress can accidentally advance the turn.

- no roads, unless partial to avoid losing movements

While true, that's not a PPP item. It's simply a point to help guide you in writing the Worker actions for a PPP.

- give in to any reasonable demand

That's not really what I wrote and it's pretty wishy-washy. If Zara demands Confucianism, will you give it to him? No, but on the surface, that could be defined as a reasonable demand. You asked for detailed answers to each situation and I gave you detailed answers. If the relevant situation comes up, refer to the detailed answers. If you try and summarize the answers, you'll give yourself misleading statements that can lead to making incorrect decisions.

- finish the chop near Dehli

Yes, but not in your 1st PPP. You want to keep your units' movement points available, to avoid ending the turn prematurely with an Enter keypress.

, then start a mine in the riverside GLHill

Not until your 3rd PPP, since you will chop in your 2nd PPP and on the next turn of your 2nd PPP, you will want to leave the Worker actions free, in case we have a Resource that we'd rather improve, and to reduce the chances of an accidental Enter keypress advancing the turn.

After the first couple of rounds of trades are made, your PPP (the 3rd PPP) can be a lot longer (probably until the end of the turnset), but you should be willing to pause mid-turnset to consult with the team on AI Trading and Demand issues.

- spread Confu in Wheaties

Yes.

- no civics/religion changes

Why not?

If we can agree on building a Confucian Missionary in Delhi after building the Settler there, we currently have no use for Confucianism. We'll still need Organized Religion in order to build Missionaries, but we can safely switch to No State Religion for 5 turns without losing a single Hammer.

That should be long enough for us to stop being Saladin's Worst Enemy and for us to get Open Borders with him. The sooner that we can do so, the sooner that we can get Buddhism from him.

Trades:
we need fishing to have sailing, so i must try to obtain that in the first round and sailing in the second

Okay, but it should be an information-collecting mission on your part, not actually making the trade in your first PPP. Even in Open Succession games, they generally pause to talk about trading possibilities, instead of just making the trade.

we can have AH without Hunting, but not Archery (for what we care)

Archery is not a tech that we really care about. Only if we somehow get extra trading opportunities than what we see in the test game (like if Zara does not have Writing), will Archery even be a possiblity.

IW is usually traded for Math with an AI. surely on Monarch, not sure on Emperor

Okay, but if we trade away Math first, we risk losing out on the tech-trading game. We want to trade Alphabet first.

If you are not convinced, consider that by trading away Math first, we also give Zara a head start on beating us to The Hanging Gardens. Trading away Alphabet first is the way to go.

BTW i usually not confuse E with W, fact is that the 2 keys are close and i can hit the wrong one. I will pay more attention in future.

No worries. If we all make the effort to clarify each directional statement with a secondary reference point (i.e. relative to where a Resource on the map is located), then it should be easy to catch these small mistakes.

Anyway, i proposed to move the warrior in the Crabs City location, so where we want chop, right?
warrior moves 1NW, 2 E of crabs.

Just to clarify, the Crab location is on the GFor square, on the southern Coast (SE + E of the Crab).
We're moving the Warrior 1N of the Crab location, on the PFor square, on the western Coast (E + E of the Crab), so that he'll see more of the fog-of-war.
So, the Warrior won't be moving to the Crab City's location.

I will play 2 full turns, not much to do outside trades. I'm usually a good trader (other than a good warmonger), so don't worry

I would ask that you don't and that you pause between your turnsets, as I outlined in the PPP in this message. Really, it should only take you about 5 mins to play, once we've decided if it will be a good idea to switch into No State Religion in order to appease Saladin and to try and get Open Borders with him.

We should discuss trades as a team. There's no reason not to do so.

If time is your true concern, then you would have played yesterday, when it was the weekend and we all had a lot of time to give you rapid feedback, so I do not buy the time factor as a valid argument.

You can even play the mini PPP that I outlined today, if we can all agree to switch into No State Religion. I think that it is a good idea, but it's the only point that we hadn't previously discussed. I had already indicated most of the other points as items to go into the PPP and no one had any complaints, so the only real complaint that I foresee is us switching into No State Religion.

No settlers ready, so i will post a dotmap to avoid mistakes and we can discuss the priorities after the first break.

That's a good idea, although we might not even settle within your turnset. Your goal will be to put the Settlers in the right place, but only to sit down if an AI lands a Settler on our landmass.

The exception to this rule will be once our Workers start to improve enough of the nearby land that a settled City can immediately be productive, instead of being a drain on our economy.

I can play tomorrow if you confirm the above, let's call it a PPP.

No offence, but it missed too many things to be officially called the PPP. If you disagree with anything that I wrote for your PPP, please discuss it.

BTW i agree for the warrior/settler/galley exploring party, the only problem is that we can build galleys only in Stony.

Which is probably why we won't be building a Work Boat in Bedrock (aka Stony) and why we will want our other Cities to have an improved square to start working, so that one of them can start on building a Work Boat for Clam City (probably Clam City will do that task).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Zara will Trade with us even if we switch to No State Religion

You can even play the mini PPP that I outlined today, if we can all agree to switch into No State Religion. I think that it is a good idea, but it's the only point that we hadn't previously discussed. I had already indicated most of the other points as items to go into the PPP and no one had any complaints, so the only real complaint that I foresee is us switching into No State Religion.

I checked the XML. In fact, Zara will trade with us even if he is Annoyed with us, let alone Cautious with us.

Only if he is Furious with us will he stop trading with us.

Saladin will not give us Open Borders and will not trade with us if he is Annoyed with us, as he currently is. He will, however, give us Open Borders and will trade with us if he is Cautious with us.

Right now, we have these relations with Saladin:
+1 Years of Peace
-4 Heathen Religion

The Worst Enemy counter is checked in-between-turns, so if we switch into No State Religion now, there is a good chance that Saladin will like us enough on the following turn to Open Borders with us and even be available to trade with us.

I'm still going to strongly recommend that we trade with the weaker Zara, but it wouldn't hurt to have the possibility to trade with Saladin in a future tech-trading round.

More importantly, though, is to try to get Open Borders with Saladin ASAP. He'll have to wait at least 10 turns to cancel the deal with us, which he might or might not do at that time. That length of time might just be long enough to get us Buddhism.

Once again, we should discuss as a team what to do if Saladin is willing to Open Borders with us. It is possible to "sweaten the deal" for an Open Borders agreement by offering a Resource trade to the AI as part of the deal, so that they are more hesitant to cancel the deal once their Attitude towards us falls below the required threshold (i.e. once he becomes Annoyed with us again, assuming that he'll be Cautious with us to begin with). Depending upon what Resources are available for trade, we should discuss which one or ones to include as part of the Open Borders deal.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I don't see why we can't put a generalized PPP down for the next PPP, so that comments can be made now and the two PPPs can be played soon after one-another, as long as we get enough people agreeing to the Tech Trades and Open Borders trades in between the two PPPs.

2nd PPP
T150 (350 BC) Continued
Trade with Zara however we agreed to trade.
Possibly trade Open Borders plus a Resource in the same trade with Saladin--however we agreed to do so.
If we got Fishing in trade, set the Grt Person Farm to building a Work Boat before the Granary
In Delhi, switch the GHRiv to a 6th Scientist. We get better return on our Flasks this way, we can get our Great Person 1 turn faster (meaning Slavery sooner and growing Delhi again sooner), and we increase the chances of getting a Great Scientist
Worker 2 Chops the GRiv Forest (1E of Delhi) into the Settler
Warrior 2 Fortifies on the PFor (E + E of the Crab)

T151 (335 BC)
Delhi completes Settler -> Confucian Missionary
Check what techs we can get in trade but don't make the trade yet
Save the game
Report back to the thread which techs we can get in exchange for which techs of ours

 

[Mitchum]

I like Dhoomstrikers PPP and stopping to discuss possible trades. I also like switching to No State religion before hitting end turn since it will cost us nothing in Delhi right now unless we build the aqueduct next. We may also lose some hammers in Wheaties from overflow once the settler is done. The up side is that we may have another tech trading partner AND a chance to score Buddhism. If we go "No State", I would suggest only doing it for 5 turns.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We may also lose some hammers in Wheaties from overflow once the settler is done.

The plan is to build a Worker in Wheaties next, before continuing to build a Granary, remember? A Worker can't use the Organized Religion bonus, so no Hammers will be lost at all.

 

[BLubmuz]

Well, the counter to the No religion/paganism is the relations with Zara. We're very weak and that chariot alone can destroy us.

If you think it's a reasonable risk to improve the relations with Sal, let's take it.
IIRC, we lose any shared religion bonus with Zara, since the counter will restart and not from the point he was when we switched, right?

No more comments, since i've almost nothing to do.

But please don't expect i'll go to the level of detail Dhoom likes in my PPP.
Just give me inputs on what improvements build and where, then i'll execute.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If you think it's a reasonable risk to improve the relations with Sal, let's take it.

I do think so. Getting Buddhism is a priority in our strategy and Opening Borders with the Buddhist founder is the best way to get it.

IIRC, we lose any shared religion bonus with Zara, since the counter will restart and not from the point he was when we switched, right?

I am pretty sure that there must be some sort of timer or decay on things. I tried out switching to No State Religion and then back to Confucianism 5 turns later, and we kept the +3 relations for having the same Religion as Zara.

Perhaps after a set number of turns, the amount of positive Diplo modifier gets reset, say, after 10 turns, but if you switch back in less that time, the Diplo modifier does not get reset?
Perhaps each turn not in the same religion, the bonus decays at the same rate that we gained it (1/10th of a point per turn at Normal speed--I'm not sure about Epic speed)?
Perhaps only if you switch into a different religion instead of No State Religion will you see the value get reset?

Either way, we kept our +3 with Zara after switching back to Confucianism 5 turns later. Note that we also kept our -4 with Isabella after switching back to Confucianism (which would equate to -4 with Saladin in the real game).

In the test game, Zara stayed Pleased with us. This fact may or may not be reflected in the real game, but I do recall that way back in the real game, we noticed that it was very easy to get Zara to a Pleased level, so I suspect the same may be true. It has been said that of the leaders, Mansa, Gandhi, and Zara all have hidden bonuses towards liking the player more than other AIs do, which could be the factor at play here.

If the real game matches the test game, we will incur no greater risk of a war with Zara under No State Religion than we will under Confucianism, as it is his Attitude towards us (Pleased, Cautious, etc) that matters in the war declaration algorithm, not how many positive or negative Diplo modifiers we have with him.

But please don't expect i'll go to the level of detail Dhoom likes in my PPP.
Just give me inputs on what improvements build and where, then i'll execute.

Part of the issue is not losing Worker actions. We could just as easily move Worker 1 straight to the Forest that he has to chop and then straight back to the Pig when he is done. However, over the course of about 10 turns, we would have just lost 2 turns worth of Worker actions.

That situation is acceptable if we have enough improved squares for all of our citizens to be busy. But the fact is that we are short on Worker actions, so every Worker action is important. Whenever you are short on Worker actions, each wasted Worker action can cost you valuable Food, Hammer, and Commerce.

Only if we have improved all of the squares that we need for our citizens to use and are at the point where we are improving "extra" squares that citizens cannot yet work, will we not lose Food, Hammers, and Commerce by being a little more relaxed in how we handle our Worker actions. I'm sure that you can see the value gained.

If you don't want to go to that level of detail, then put in some general ideas and I'll fill out the details to help us gain a Worker action here and there, to help maximize the value that we can get out of our Workers.

Start with your PPP3, since there is a lot of info left to fill out for that. I am more than happy to pitch in to tweak what you've got, but if you don't put in some level of detail ahead of time, it will seem like I wrote the whole thing for you.