SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

EDIT: A minor change was made in blue text to queue up a Settler ahead of time, so that we don't accidentally let overflow Hammers go into a Granary.

EDIT: A couple of minor changes were made to Workers 3 and 4 just before the end of the PPP3, to better leverage their positions.

Spoiler :

Specifically, Worker 3 might as well chop the Forest that it is next to now, since it can save a turn moving into that Forest now but will be unlikely able to save that turn later. Afterwards, Worker 3 can go to the PHFor NW of Wheaties with the same amount of movement wasted--an entire turn's worth of movement. So, overall, we gain 1 Worker action.

Worker 4 can push on towards the west a bit sooner. That leaves Worker 4 in a better position to chop the Three Clam City's Forest a lot sooner, which means that we will be able to whip Bedrock's Galley that much sooner, too!

PPP3
Note that there are certain factors that will be hard to predict--which Trade Routes we will get, what Great Person we will get, whether or not an AI Settler Party will show up--so the PPP intentionally stops partway through BLubmuz' turnset so that we can update the test game mid-way through the turnset. Also, we tend to lose focus during longer turnsets, so this way there will be a chance to address this lack of focus issue.


Primary Goals of this Partial PPP that are incorporated into the steps below
1. Get a Great Person and maximize the chances of getting a Great Scientist
2. Trade for Monarchy + Archery from Zara for Alphabet + Math ON THE TURN THAT Zara LEARNS Monarchy
3. Watch out for an AI Galley and stop play if one is spotted


Secondary Goals
4. Get the PCow at Wheaties Pastured quickly
5. Use Warrior 8 (who is Fortified in Bedrock) to explore the tip of the northern continent that we have previously missed seeing
6. Get 2 of our 3 western Settlers into position without settling their respective Cities (if an AI Galley appears, we'll pause play instead of settling)


Points to Keep in Mind for Each Turn
A] Check the F4 -> Tech screen on each turn to see if any changes occur. If something interesting appears, be willing to pause play and report it to the team
B] Check the F4 -> Resources screen on each turn to see if any changes occur. If something interesting appears, be willing to pause play and report it to the team
C] If a demand is made for either Code of Laws or Theology, refuse the demand
D] If you find that you made a deviation from the PPP, pause play immediate and report the deviation, so that we can decide if we'll need to alter the PPP to make up for the change


T151 (335 BC)
Delhi: Switch the GHRiv Mine to a Scientist (yes, I said a Scientist) and work: 2 Corn, Copper, and 6 Scientists [1]
Wheaties: Queue up a second Settler to come between the current Settler build and the Granary (hold the Ctrl key when selecting the Settler to put it at the start of the build queue)
Grt Person Farm: (not Silverado--it is easy to confuse the two since they are both Size 1) starts to build a Work Boat before the Granary
Wake and Move Warrior 8 (he is in Bedrock) 1NW GFor (1E of the PMarble)
Move Worker 2 1E GHRiv (E + E of Delhi and N + N + N of the Ice Iron) and Mine
Move Settler 6 to the FPCot 1SE of Bedrock (1W of the DStone)
Worker 3 Chops the PFor (1NE of Wheaties) into Wheaties' Settler
Move Worker 4 to the PCow (SW + S of Wheaties) and Pasture
Worker 1 Chops the Crab City's GFor (SE + E of the Crab and NW + N of the Fish)
Warrior 2 Skips turn (Spacebar)
Warrior 6 Fortifies in the Desert (S + S of the Fish and 1E of the GHorse)

T152 (320 BC)
Do not trade for Archery with anyone (let's wait until Zara researches Monarchy and get Archery on that turn, at the same time as getting Monarchy)
Delhi: Switch 1 Scientist to the GHRiv Mine (NE + E of Delhi) and work: 2 Corn, Copper, GHRiv Mine (NE + E of Delhi), and 5 Scientists [2]
Wheaties: Built Settler 7
Wheaties: Confirm that we are going to build another Settler before the Granary (complete in 13 turns, minus a few turns for a Forest chop)
Move Settler 6 to the Grassland 1N of the GPig (S + S + S + S of the PMarble)
Move Warrior 8 1N to the PCow (1NE of the PMarble)
Move Worker 3 to the PCow (SW + S of Wheaties) and Pasture
Settler 7 auto-moves to the Rice [3]
Warrior 2 Skips turn (Spacebar)

T153 (305 BC)
Do you see an AI Galley? If yes, pause play, as we may alter what our Settlers will do if you see a Galley
Did Zara research Monarchy yet? If yes, trade Alpha + Math to Zara in exchange for his Monarchy + Archery
Move Settler 6 to the GFor N + N of the Fish (W + W of the GPig) [5]
Move Warrior 8 1N to the Plains (NE + N of the PMarble)
Warrior 2 Skips turn (Spacebar)

T154 (290 BC)
Do you see an AI Galley? If yes, pause play
Did Zara research Monarchy yet? If yes, trade Alpha + Math to Zara in exchange for his Monarchy + Archery
Wheaties: Switch the Oasis to the PCow and work the PWheat + the PCow (the PCow will be complete by the end of this turn)
Worker 1 finishes the Forest Chop into the Work Boat for 20 Hammers into GFP's Work Boat by chopping the Forest at the Crab City location (SE + E of the Crab and NW + N of the Fish)
Move Settler 6 1W to the Grassland that Worker 3 just finishd chopping (SE + E of the Crab and NW + N of the Fish) and Skip turn (Spacebar)
Move Warrior 8 1S to the PCow (NE of the PMarble)
Move Worker 4 to the GHFor NE + N of Delhi (SW + SW of the PCow that is currently standing on) and CHOP/STOP (not Mine) [6]
Warrior 2 Fortifies on the PFor (E + E of the Crab) [7]

T155 (275 BC)
Do you see an AI Galley? If yes, pause play
Zara is scheduled to learn Monarchy. [4]
Trade Alpha + Math to Zara in exchange for his Monarchy + Archery--do so on an earlier turn if Zara researches Monarchy earlier--we must trade with him as soon as he learns Monarchy or else we will stand a good chance of not getting the trade deal (due to the AI's automatic trading away of Monarchy on the turn after they learn it)
Delhi: Fire the 5th Scientist and put him on the PHRiv Mine (1SE of Delhi) and work: 2 Corn, Copper, GHRiv Mine (NE + E of Delhi), PHRiv Mine (1SE of Delhi), and 4 Scientists
Move Worker 4 to the GHorse (SE + S of Bedrock and 1SW of the DStone) and Pasture/STOP
Move Worker 3 1W to the GFor (1W of the PCow that was just Pastured and SW + SW of Wheaties) and CHOP
Move Worker 1 1E GFor (N + N of the Fish and W + W of the GPig) and Chop/Stop
Move Warrior 8 1S GFor (1E of the PMarble and 1NW of Bedrock)
Settler 6 is on the Grassland (SE + E of the Crab and NW + N of the Fish) and Skips turn (Spacebar)
Settler 7 is on the Rice and Skips turn (Spacebar)
End the turn and find out what Great Person we got

T156 (260 BC)
A Great Person is born. If it is a Great Scientist, Lightbulb Philosophy (be careful not to click on the wrong button), found Taoism, but DO NOT switch to Taoism.
Save the game and report the results back to the thread


References

Spoiler :

[1] We are going to push for as high of a chance of getting a Great Scientist as possible. We'll switch back to 5 Scientists on the next turn, but for now we are going to run a 6th one for those extra Great Scientist GPP.

[2] We need to work the GHRiv Mine starting on this turn in order to maximize our Bureaucracy bonus. But otherwise, we're going to be pumping out as many Great Scientist GPPs as possible.

[3] We won't mess up any Forest regrowth chances by sending Settler 7 straight to the Rice, but we want to avoid messing up Forest regrowth chances with Settler 6, so Settler 6 must be moved turn-by-turn. Also, since we aren't building Roads during the turnset, we can auto-move a unit without risking losing potential movement points. Otherwise, we would want to complete all Roads in a turn before units were moved, in case the units being moved could gain more movement points from said newly-built Roads.

[4] However, Zara might learn Monarchy sooner or later than this turn, as I didn't get Zara's Science level exact in the test game. However, the goal is to trade with him AS SOON AS as learns Monarchy.

[5] This location was chosen to avoid disrupting Forest regrowth chances

[6] Since we started to both Chop and Mine, we must finish the Chop first or else we will lose invested Worker actions

[7] We feel safe in fortifying Warrior 2 (the Warrior on the west coast) since we don't need to keep skipping his turn as well as Settler 6's turn on each turn

 

[Irgy]

Well, I can't say I know enough about the worker moves to comment on them, but the primary and secondary goals look good.

A couple of vague comments, I hope they're not so far out of touch as to not be useful:
* I noticed a lack of roads to the GPFarm, and a lack of workers there improving the food tiles. What have the workers been doing all this time? They haven't been improving the marble either. I'm sure it's something useful though. I notice one's chopping a forest that we're going to settle on soon, that seems like a reasonable thing to do.
* We can improve the deer near Silverado now, I really think we should do that sooner rather than later, as it will finally get this city going. It also needs a lighthouse too to start working the lakes as 3 food, once it has that it will be quite a good city. Working 4 or 5 lakes is as much commerce as the silver, and enough food to whip out all sorts of good stuff. That's a while off yet though. I assume it has all sorts of things it's busy doing first though?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Responding to Irgy's Comments

Writing Goals for the PPP

Spoiler :

Well, I can't say I know enough about the worker moves to comment on them, but the primary and secondary goals look good.

Great! That was the point of writing them... to demonstrate what all of the little details in the PPP are all about.

Roads?

Spoiler :

* I noticed a lack of roads to the GPFarm

What would be the purpose of a Road to the GPFarm?
We have a trade route connection to that City already.
We have no border with an AI next to that City, so there is no need to rush military units there.
Our Workers have 3 movement points, so they hardly need Roads for mobility. They ARE our Unique Unit afterall--that's another part of the reason why we're spending so much time on our Worker actions.

If we had Praetorians for our Unique Unit instead, I'm sure that we'd spend a lot of time micromanaging where the Praetorians were located on every turn.

We aren't in Missionary-spamming mode, so it's not like we need a ton of Roads everywhere.

So, can you explain why we would need Roads in favour of, say, improving a Cow Pasture that can be worked by a citizen as soon as it gets improved?

GPF Improvements

Spoiler :

, and a lack of workers there improving the food tiles.

After chopping the Forest that can be settled on very shortly (the Crab City's Forest), that Worker's next actions will take him to the Great Person Farm's GPig square, in order to Pasture it.

So, we do have the Worker action of improving the GPFarm's squares in our queue--we are just short of Worker actions everywhere in our empire, so until we can "catch up" on Worker actions, we'll have citizens in our empire that cannot work the best squares.

COULD we instead of working the GPig for 3 Food be hiring a Specialist? Yes, we could, but a 3 Food square is a fair way to grow at Size 1 (it should take 11 turns to grow to a Foodbox Size of 33). After we grow, we will immediately whip a Work Boat, which then gives us an improved Fish Resource to regrow with that much faster.

We calculated that if we did not chop the Forest that the Crab City will settle on, it will still take a while to get the GPig Pasture completed, such that we will barely get to use it before the GPFarm has grown enough to be whipped. And at that point, once we have whipped the City back down to Size 1, we can just as easily work a Fish square for 5 Food + 2 Commerce instead of a GPig for 6 Food, without losing out that much.

Therefore, we justified spending the time to chop the Crab City's Forest before improving the GPig.

What have the Workers been doing? Also, a bit about what they will be doing next

Spoiler :

What have the workers been doing all this time?

Well, we have been pumping out Settlers in Delhi and Wheaties thanks to Forest Chops.

The next task at Delhi has us JUST IN TIME putting down another GHRiv Mine that we will use IMMEDIATELY upon it being created, to help build an Aqueduct and The Hanging Gardens as soon as we get our Great Person and are able to fire the Scientist Specialists.

Prior to the Forest Chop at Wheaties, the Workers were improving the Wheat and then chaining Irrigation to the Wheat. Their next task is to complete the PCow, which will get used immediately. One Worker will then continue to chop Forests for the off-continent Settlers (you do want off-continent Cities, right? Well, that's the only way that we could see to get them, unless you'd rather skip building The Hanging Gardens and build Settlers in Delhi). The other Worker will finally be "freed up," and will first help to chop a Forest into The Hanging Gardens. Aftwards, he will likely go to the west to help out there.

The Worker by the GPFarm also took a few turns to get into position there and we only JUST learned Animal Husbandry anyway, so had he been at the GPFarm on the turn that it was settled, we still could not have started Pasturing the PCow.

Worker 5, when it gets built at the start of the next partial turnset (I guess we'll call it BLubmuz' PPP4) will head west, as well. One of those west-going Workers can chop the Forest that our Three Clams City will sit on, while the other can potentially improve the GHorseRiv square by Bedrock, which is actually a stronger square than the PMarble and is a square that also takes less time to improve.

They haven't been improving the marble either.

We can certainly be sure to connect the Marble before we need to use it as a strategic Resource, but right now we need to get our citizens working improved squares all across the empire, so the Marble takes low priority at present, due to its Quarry taking almost double the time of other improvements to be completed and the square's Basic Inputs not making a top-producer of a square. Add to that the fact that it's far from where our Workers have been busy on other tasks, and you have your reasons for why the Marble has not been given a higher priority.

I'm sure it's something useful though. I notice one's chopping a forest that we're going to settle on soon, that seems like a reasonable thing to do.

I am glad that you think so. IF we weren't able to get a square (i.e. the improved Fish) at the GPFarm improved soon, we would have a cascading effect of delaying the GPig at the GPFarm, such that each further improvement that wasn't completed would add to the total Food, Hammers, and Commerce lost per turn for each turn that we delayed starting on this series of Worker actions (the Worker actions to improve the GPFarm).

But, unlike at the start of the game, this situation is being mitigated by two factors:
a) We are whipping away a population point, so that population point will not require a second improved square to exist ASAP. After that, we'll be whiping a second time for our 2nd Work Boat, for there is no rush at all to get a third improved square at the GPFarm anytime soon
AND
b) We will improve the Fish by the very act of whipping, negating the need to get the GPig's Pasture completed ASAP, since we'll only be at Size 1 and a City at Size 1 can only work one square at a time

Silverado's Worked Squares

Spoiler :

* We can improve the deer near Silverado now, I really think we should do that sooner rather than later, as it will finally get this city going.

We certainly could. But let me ask you:
Would you trade 33 / 4 = 9 turns of working the Silver just to grow the City to Size 2 using a very weak square (the Deer = only 4 basic inputs)?

Or, would you prefer to wait until the City grows thanks to building The Hanging Gardens, such that we can continuously work the Silver and then also work the Deer (and maybe temporarily a Lake in place of the Deer for a few turns)? In other words, we can safely delay putting a Camp on the Deer for a few turns.

Further, the Granary is far from complete, so it would be very inefficient to grow to Size 2 via a weak square like the Deer, only to lose all of the City's Foodbox's Food. Far better to keep half of it, which would mean waiting until the Granary is complete minus 1 to 2 turns before it would even make sense to start working the Deer.

So, the EARLIEST that we'd need the Deer improved is on the turn that The Hanging Gardens is completed.

We could arguably delay completing the Camp on the Deer a bit more if another Worker action would be able to be partially completed during that time (say, we can either get the Deer improved 3 turns before it can be used, or we can chop 1 more Forest into the Hanging Gardens, meaning that that Worker will be busy for 6 or so more turns and Silverado will have to work a Lake instead of the Deer for 6 - 3 = 3 turns (approximately). Since the Deer is such a weak square anyway, I'd rather work it for 3 less turns if it means getting 1 extra population in EVERY CITY a few turns sooner, wouldn't you agree? Don't you think that those 3 turns of 4 Food from the Deer instead of 2 Food + 2 Commerce are easily made up for by 1 extra population point in every other City working a useful square or hiring a Specialist for a couple of extra turns? Since the Basic Inputs are the same (4 Food vs 2 Food + 2 Commerce), I think that we'd be more than justified.

But yes, I do agree that we'll shortly thereafter want to get that Deer Resource improved.

Silverado's Build Order

Spoiler :

It also needs a lighthouse too to start working the lakes as 3 food

Agreed, and we will be building one after the Granary. It means losing 13 Hammers invested into a Courthouse, but the tradeoff seems worth it, since we'll gain more back in Food from the Lighthouse, and technically (although I'd prefer not whipping at all in Silverado, or at least as little as possible), Food can be converted into Hammers by whipping, which would more than make up for us trying to "artificially save" those invested 13 Hammers just by building a Courthouse before building the Lighthouse.

We'd actually lose more Hammers overall if we delayed the Lighthouse, so a Lighthouse will be next on the list of Silverado's build items.

Plus, most of those Hammers will decay by the time that the Granary is complete, so if we wanted to save all 13 Hammers, we would need to build the Courthouse before completing both the Lighthouse AND the Granary--not a good idea at all.

So, worry not--you will get your Lighthouse in short order (and then Moai Statues right afterwards, would be my suggestion).

 

[Mitchum]

I played through the turnset and I have a few questions/comments.

1. Why is Warrior 8 moving north? It appears that we've already unfogged all of the tiles up there. Is it to see if he can spot the cultural borders of a city that may have been placed up there between the time we originally scouted up there and now?

2. It's important to switch Wheaties build from a settler to another settler on T152. There is a granary in the build queue that will automatically be selected as our next build and we do NOT want all of those overflow hammers to go into the granary.

3. Rather than having Settler 6 stand on the Grassland tile SE-E of the Crab? It seems better to stand on the Plains tile 1W of the Grassland tile for better vision west. Are you standing on the Grassland tile to avoid a forest growing there? If a forest did grow there, we'd lose a movement point going back there and could screw up our settling plans...

4. I don't recall building an Itelligence Agency in the GP Farm... I assume you put that there to better keep track of what the AI is doing...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Responding to Mitchum's Questions

Spoiler :

1. Why is Warrior 8 moving north?

If Zara truly met someone early on, he either met them when he went up north and another AI unit came south, or he met that AI to the east.

For him to have met said AI, he would have had to have seen that AI across the "straight" of water between our continent and the one to the north. We never took the time to unfog that bit of land that we can spot from our continent, so why not do it now when we have the surrounding area fog-busted and when we aren't worried about an attack from Zara for having an undefended City (he can't attack us for several turns due to our demand).

2. It's important to switch Wheaties build from a settler to another settler on T152. There is a granary in the build queue that will automatically be selected as our next build and we do NOT want all of those overflow hammers to go into the granary.

Correct. However, EVERY action in PPP3 is important. I'd rather not emphasize certain actions in favour of others, as there are not real optional actions in there--even the questions like "Did a Galley appear on this turn?" require you to spend the time to look for one, so nothing is "optional."

However, we COULD queue up the Settler at the start of the turnset, if you feel that doing so would add an extra level of security for us not losing those overflow Hammers. Do you want me to adjust PPP3 accordingly?


Settler 6's Location

3. Are you standing on the Grassland tile to avoid a forest growing there? If a forest did grow there, we'd lose a movement point going back there and could screw up our settling plans...

Precisely. I thought about letting a Forest regrow. But you'd need to move your unit away for a Forest to regrow. Then I thought about the implications--if a Forest grew, we'd need time to chop it if we were going to actually take advantage of it, and we might be ready to settle the City before that regrowth + chopping can happen. Also, as you mentioned, we could lose a turn by walking back onto a Forested square--and depending upon how attentive we are in watching for an AI Galley, as well as whether or not one shows up (one WILL show up EVENTUALLY, it's just will it show up in this turnset or maybe 100 turns from now?), we may or may not need that turn in order to settle the City before an AI does. So, I'm happy with the location of those units in the area.

4. I don't recall building an Itelligence Agency in the GP Farm... I assume you put that there to better keep track of what the AI is doing...

Whoops. I was trying to get our Espionage points up to match those of the real game. It won't really help or hurt the testing by much, especially since PPP3 only applies for a few turns. Since most players have already downloaded the latest test saved game, I won't make the change now and will just have to remember to delete the building when playing through the test game after BLubz plays, when we play through to match what he ended up doing.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

High-level Suggestions to help in writing PPP4 for the remainder of BLubz' turnset, for the period of time after we get our 3rd Great Person

Spoiler :

Thia is a draft PPP for turns until 160

Note that I used what was written as the start for writing PPP3 and I think that I covered everything written in there in either PPP3 or else in a direct reply to this message (such as the reply that we'd best not change Espionage Weights at all for now and the reply about how to handle AI Demands).

However, I'll spell out a few things in the format that BLubz used, so that hopefully he can find the time to run a couple of test games and write his own partial PPP for the remainder of his turnset after PPP3.

Dehli: finish worker (5-6 turns), pop GS, fire all Scientists, Aqueduct (maybe whip--needs testing), HG
Whaties: Finish settler (1-2 turns), build a 2nd Settler (for off-continent), build a 3rd Settler (for off-continent), finish the Granary, Apostolic Palace
Bedrock: finish settler (7 turns), Galley (whip as soon as it is possible to do so), Galley, finish the Granary
Silverado: continues granary, Lighthouse, Moai Statues (chopped)
GPF: switch to WB (whip as soon as it is possible to do so), WB #2, finish the Granary, Lighthouse
Riverdale: Continues Monastery (whip as soon as we have Org Rel + Slavery + Confucianism), Confucian Missionary on slow-build until we get another religion, hopefully we will spread Taoism here by either founding it here or spreading the Missionary here, Taoist Monastary

The Worker actions are something that we have to play test games to figure out, so even I don't yet know how the Workers will be best used after PPP3.

Civics/Religion?

Stay the same (No State Religion, Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, Decentralization, and Paganism) until we get our 3rd Great Person.
Then we switch into Confucianism, Slavery, and Organized Religion all on the same turn as each other. They will stay the same for the rest of your turnset. If Buddhism spreads, then pause play and we'll discuss what to do.

What about the AP?

It will eventually be built in Wheaties. If we see that an AI has learned Theology, pause play and we'll discuss what to do about it.

 

[Mitchum]

BLubmuz, can you update an early post to keep track of the WFYABTA (We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced) counter? It should be set at 4 for both Sal and Zara. It will go to 6 as soon as we trade for Monarchy and Archery too.

BTW, there is a chance that this value will decay over time, but there is no way to tell from the user interface. The numbers we keep track of will be worst case.

 

[BLubmuz]

BLubmuz, can you update an early post to keep track of the WFYABTA (We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced) counter? It should be set at 4 for both Sal and Zara. It will go to 6 as soon as we trade for Monarchy and Archery too.

BTW, there is a chance that this value will decay over time, but there is no way to tell from the user interface. The numbers we keep track of will be worst case.

I don't know where to find that info.

I'm just sure that counter will decay over time. We used this extensively in a OCC SG, the first with WastinTime.

Tomorrow i'll be able to run the test following Dhoom's PPP3 and i'll post the PPP3.1 until T160.

 

[Mitchum]

I don't know where to find that info.

I'm just sure that counter will decay over time. We used this extensively in a OCC SG, the first with WastinTime.

You can find the decay information here. There is a 1 in 20 chance that an AI will "forget" about one of your tech trades.

As I said before, I would rather track worst case and plan for that rather than being surprised later in the game when the decay doesn't work out to be exactly 1 tech decay every 20 turns.

EDIT: Dont forget, with the 40% boost for Emperor level, the actual tech limit for both Zara and Sal is 14.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I don't know where to find that info.

That's why WFYABTA is so confusing--because the info isn't to be found in the interface.

Anyway, Mitchum has a point that if we track the info manually, we'll essentially know the values that each AI has recorded against us.

That's why it is good for us to be trading for Monarchy and Archery when we hardly know any of the AIs--only the AIs that we have met at the time that we make the trade will increase their WFYABTA counters with us.


Potentially Risky Areas of PPP3
Speaking of that Monarchy + Archery trade deal, it is probably the biggest part of PPP3 that worries me--I cannot accurately predict the date when Zara will learn Monarchy, so it is up to you to be extra watchful for him to learn that tech. If we delay even 1 turn and the AI that Zara met (to either the north or the east) knows Alphabet or knows Math and has partially researched Monarchy, we only will get one turn before Zara will trade with someone else, losing us that great deal.

The only other really easy way to mess up PPP3 is to forget to switch to another Settler in Wheaties, since if the overflow Hammers go into a Granary, we are not only going to delay our off-continent settling, but we will also miss out on the Organized Religion bonus into the Granary. Fortunately, Mitchum pointed this fact out. So, I have already put in an extra line in PPP3 that asks you to double-check that we're going to build this additional Settler as our next build item in Wheaties.

I'm just sure that counter will decay over time. We used this extensively in a OCC SG, the first with WastinTime.

Well, we can keep track of that fact, too. If an AI is at its WFYABTA limit and they are not Friendly with us, we will know as soon as their counter reduces below their limit and we can update the value that we have for them.

Tomorrow i'll be able to run the test following Dhoom's PPP3

Great. I'm looking forward to your test game results (i.e. to confirm that you understood everything that I wrote in PPP3).

and i'll post the PPP3.1 until T160.

Great. PPP3.1 will be subject to change depending upon things that happen within PPP3.1, such as whether or not we get our Great Scientist for Philosophy and whether or not we meet an AI during PPP3. Also, we'll need to update the test saved game after you play PPP3 against the real game, as I'm sure that several things will end up being incorrect, particularly the Trade Routes, and we'll want to give you accurate numbers so that we can decide when to switch to a 100% Science Rate for learning Currency.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Note that I thought of a bit better way to leverage Workers 3 and 4, so I'll update PPP3 accordingly in a moment.

EDIT: Okay, the update was made in purple text.

The previous update that was made in red text was overridden by the purple text's change, which is why you don't see any red text anymore.

 

[havr]

We will never finish this game on time.

Don't say I didn't tell you so.

 

[unclethrill]

We will never finish this game on time.

Don't say I didn't tell you so.

Sure we will. When we have 1 week left, we will just kick all this MM to the curb and hope that we are far enough ahead of everyone else to win without it through to the end. That is how the winning teams have done it in the past.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Sure we will. When we have 1 week left, we will just kick all this MM to the curb and hope that we are far enough ahead of everyone else to win without it through to the end. That is how the winning teams have done it in the past.

Sounds fine to me! Make sure that you schedule your vacation time around that last week--either don't go on holidays during that time or take that week off from work so that we can finish off the game.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Other Teams

Spoiler :

Speaking of other teams, many of them appear to be climbing greatly in their Power level around the 100 AD mark.

Clearly, they have chosen a military struggle to try and get the required number of Diplo votes (you're not going to go on a military binge in a Cultural game unless you're playing on a low Difficulty Level and have nothing better to do with your Hammers ).

Fortunately, the game setup works in our favour instead of for their type of approach:
1. They can only declare war on 2 AIs. Yes, other AIs could also declare war on them, but that'll probably happen in a "dog-pile" fashion, so the wars will be harder when fighting against multiple AIs

2. Either they will only get to fight against 2 AIs and won't get anywhere close to Diplomation or else the AIs will fight alongside each other (because some AIs declared war on the SGOTM team in question). Since all AIs must remain alive, these AIs will like each other better for having shared wars together

3. Obviously, the AIs that the SGOTM team declared war on will dislike that SGOTM team a lot--in most cases will dislike them enough not to vote for them, except for a "super Friendly towards the player" AI like Zara. But Zara's land area is pretty small, so I'd say you wasted a war declaration against him unless you did so AT THE VERY START OF THE GAME and used Zara to "feed" you a bunch of Workers. Still, that approach would just help to kick-start your empire; it wouldn't directly get you a lot of land that you could convert into population for the Diplo vote--you'd still have to go out and claim that land from another AI, and you'd only be able to PICK one more target (other targets would require you waiting for the AI to declare war on you)

4. The more Cities that these SGOTM teams capture, the more Missionaries that they'll have to spread around. Presumably, we'll use a Religion like Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, or Taoism for building the Apostolic Palace. That Religion makes the most sense for us to spread around.

We obviously will WANT to spread Buddhism around, too, but if I had to pick between every City having my State Religion and every City having the Apostolic Palace religion, I'd pick the Apostolic Palace religion. Why?

Well, mediocre and junky Cities can benefit a lot from 4 extra Hammers (although it'll only be 2 extra Hammers after we learn Scientific Method and obsolete our Monastaries). That's +2 or +4 Hammers per turn. To get +2 Hammers from the Organized Religion bonus, the City can be making 11 or less Hammers under Organized Religion. So, for the average mediocre City that makes 11 or less Hammers, the bonuses are just as good as each other if you're in Organized Religion.

But, part of the time we'll be running Pacifism, which we won't care about for our mediocre and junky Cities--we'll mostly care about the bonus in our Great Person Farm, in Delhi, and possibly in Clam City--that's it. During that time, the Apostolic Palace buildings in other Cities will still produce those extra Hammers.

5. I'm going to assume that the 4 "Special" Resources which we need to collect are spread amongst different AIs (if they weren't, then it wouldn't be much of a challenge). So, you can attack 2 of the AIs that have these Special Resources, but then you might not capture a lot of land. You are more likely to make enemies of the other AIs if you attack due to capturing Special Resources instead of attacking due to understanding the Diplo situation enough to "pick off" a disliked AI.

The Barbs are known to have one of these Special Resources, either with a City or Mech Infantry guarding it.

Most teams will be able to capture at most 2 of the other Resources. Then they have to figure out a way to get the 3rd one in trade from an AI whom they may have angered by "declaring war on the AI's friends."

Alternatively, they'll make their wars land-oriented (going after the biggest AIs) and will have to negotiate multiple trade deals with AIs that dislike them for having been a warmonger.

Our Strategy--The Main Part

Spoiler :

For our strategy, we're going to spend our Hammers on Missionaries instead of Military, helping to "spread the good news" of Buddhism across the world, except for to Zara.

In the worst case, Zara may be small and thus potentially could become someone's Vassal later on, which would suck. However, an AI is far less likely to take on a Vassal peacefully if they dislike each other, and with Zara having dived head-first into the Confucian camp, even going so far as to spread Confucian Missionaries around, it'll be hard for him to become friendly enough with any other AI to vassalize peacefully to them.

Barring that worst case, Zara will gladly take the United Nations off of our hands.

If we manage to get a City or two on different continents, then we'll also have other "gifting Cities" available to gift to other AIs, should our plans of gifting to Zara fall through.


Also, don't forget that we will have the world united under one religious banner (except for Zara). So, even if we have to go up against one of our Buddhist Brothers and Sisters of the faith in a vote, we will just have to "butter up" the other AIs more than the largest AI does.


Now, I'm talking about worst case scenarios for our strategy. That's about as bad as it can get.

It obviously becomes extremely simple to gift the United Nations to Zara and win, if Zara does not become another AI's Vassal.

Our Strategy--Other Factors

Spoiler :

Missionaries
Okay, yes, we'll be building a lot of Missionaries.

Buddhist ones to spread to the other AIs and to a few of our Cities in order to:
a) Be able to build more Buddhist Missionaries
and
b) Be able to get the Pacifism bonus in our Great-People-generating Cities


We'll also spread around the Apostolic Palace's Religion's Missionaries to all of our Cities, since we will need to switch into this Religion on the last turn of the game, after we win the Diplo vote, in order to meet the game condition of "all Cities must be running your State Religion."


REXing and Farms
We'll also want to REX as much as we can now, so as to become the largest land-wise Civ in the world, which translates into being the largest population-wise later on.

Most of our newer Cities will focus on running Farms and hiring Specialists due to being in Representation, but we can still lay down the odd Cottage.

Later, Farms will help us to grow population at the end of the game for the extra Diplo votes.


Astronomy
Getting to Astronomy early on is part of our tech path. We'll NEED it for Physics. It is also an optional pre-requisite tech to Scientific Method, so we might as well research it prior to learning Scientific Method (Physics comes after Scientific Method, but you'll still need Astronomy for Physics), since Scientific Method will cancel our Great Library, Parthenon, and Missionary bonuses, should we get either of those Wonders.

Astronomy will help us to find and capture the Barb's Fur, which is likely on some remote island that can only be reached via Astronomy. That would be the "fairest" way to place the Fur and Barbs.

Of course, it may not happen that way. For example, a Barb City could be placed right next to an AI's capitol or else the Fur could be on a Hut that a Barb Mech Infantry is guarding. A Hut won't be deserted by a Barb unit while an AI won't attach a Mech Infantry anytime soon. But regardless, Astronomy will help us to find such a location without the risk of our exploring boats being killed by Barb Galleys.

Astronomy may also help us to settle more land at the edges of AIs' continents or on any islands that are uninhabited, which of course could help us to increase our overall population and thus increase the amount of our Diplo votes.

 

[BLubmuz]

Test played, i can't find a hole.
Just one thing: for how many turns will i keep the research to 0? Ithink 3 is enough, then we can set to 100 until we arrive to some 20 gold in bank.

I will play in some 3 hours from now.

I see Havr's worries, since they're mine too. But in a couple TSs we can cease to be so accurate. 1 hammer or a coin here or there will not make a great difference, i hope.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Tech Rate--I suggest that we stick at a 0% Science Rate until we have enough Gold saved up to go to a 100% Science Rate until the tech is researched

Spoiler :

Test played, i can't find a hole.
Just one thing: for how many turns will i keep the research to 0? Ithink 3 is enough, then we can set to 100 until we arrive to some 20 gold in bank.

When I played, I stuck with 0% Science Rate the entire time by choice.

At the end of PPP3, it'll be about the perfect time to go to a 100% Science Rate. I couldn't be completely positive on the timing, in case our Trade Routes were slightly different in the test game, but that's how I would suggest that we do it, since at most we will be "off" by 1 turn.


Your technique of "keeping our cash reserves low to avoid losing the Gold to an AI's Demand" is a good trick, but it only applies AFTER Currency is learned. Prior to Currency being learned, no one can demand our Gold reserves, so we might as well just stick at a 0% Science Rate for PPP3, since there will be no benefit from starting to "spend" our Gold on research early on.

As I said, the only possible benefit would be to avoid having our money demanded, but it can't be demanded until someone learns Currency. Even then, we might be MORE THAN HAPPY to get such demands, since "173 Gold" is a lot cheaper of a demand than "give us Theology," right?


The PLUS SIDE of delaying your 100% Science Rate is that if an AI like Saladin learns Currency, we will have more options:
a) We can get a 4% bonus to our research rate by switching to a 100% Science Rate at the last possible moment in order to spend all of our Gold reserves. If we start going 0%, 100%, 0%, 100% every turn or two, we won't get as much of this extra bonus to our research rate if an AI learns the tech before us
AND
b) If an AI like Saladin learns the tech, we won't have invested too many Flasks into that tech. You can pause play and ask the team to see if we should switch research tasks, say, to Aesthetics. Saladin might be willing to trade us Currency later on, which would overall increase our tech rate, since that would be one less partially-researched tech that we would have to research on our own (Currency)


So, strategically, in general, I would suggest that we stay at a 0% Science Rate until we collect enough Gold to be able to switch to a 100% Science Rate for the time remaining to learn the tech. Only once we have all of the Gold needed, THEN we switch to a 100% Science Rate.

It can even be argued that we should spend ONE MORE turn at a 0% Science Rate, so that on the turn that we switch to a new tech, we can stay at a 100% Science Rate for ONE TURN, just to get any bonus Flasks from the overflow Flasks plus the regular number of Flasks that you can research in one turn at a 100% Science Rate. After that first turn of learning a tech, we simply switch back to a 0% Science Rate until we've collected enough Gold (a test game will tell you how much Gold is "enough" Gold).

The only "downside" is that an AI may demand some of our Gold. But, since we are playing a Diplo game, we WANT the AIs to make demands. Why?
a) An AI that accepts our Gold in a Demand won't get a high-priced tech like Theology
AND
b) An AI that accepts our Gold in a Demand will like us more, which will make it easier for them to stay peaceful with us and will make it easier for us to maintain Open Borders with said AI in order to get Buddhism and will make it easier to keep our Resource Trades going when we are in different Relgions, which will make them like us even more later on once the Resource Trading positive Diplo modifier kicks in
AND
c) An AI that accepts our Gold in a Demand will be unable to declare war on us for a while, so we can safely peacefully expand by putting Cities on their continent


If we weren't playing a Diplo game, then I'd suggest to play by your strategy a bit more: run 0% Science Rate for 2 turns then 100% Science Rate for 1 turn, and then switch back and forth. But, since we ARE playing a Diplo game, I'd rather have the Gold reserves to "attract" an AI's Demand to our Gold instead of to our Monopoly Techs.

I'd also like to leverage the above-mentioned benefits of going 0% Science Rate until you have enough Gold saved up, which are that you can potentially piggy-back off of an AI's research a bit more and you can potentially switch to a different tech and trade for the one that you were going to research.


The final benefit of not switching back and forth between 0% and 100% Science Rate every couple of turns is that it's a lot of micromanagement to worry about--if you are very focused on watching the Science Rate, you will forget to watch other areas of the game, so it becomes easier to make mistakes elsewhere.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Note that it was also by choice not to switch Civics or Religion during PPP3, because:
1. We want to stay in Caste System until the end of PPP3, when we get our Great Person
AND
2. If we switch into Organized Religion during PPP3, we would miss out on being able to switch into Slavery for 5 turns, and we kind of want both Civics at once for Riverdale's whipping action
AND
3. Switching into Confucianism sooner than we need to do so will just anger Saladin sooner, while the only benefit that it would provide (extra Happiness in a couple of Cities) is not currently needed

At the end of PPP3 (i.e. on T156) as part of PPP3.1, we'll probably want to switch into all three of the above at the same time (Org Rel + Slavery + Confucianism), but we can discuss that likelihood when we look at PPP3.1.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, played until T156.

Relevant events:
- The arabian WB moved 2E on turn 151, but instead to move further E it went back.
Arrived in Bedrock, it's now (t156) moving E again. In other words, Sal has not met Zara yet.
- No foreign vessels sighted, never
- IBT 152-153, Judaism auto-spreaded to GPF
- The warrior from Bedrock spotted jungle-Sugar in his short trip North. It should be a small island.
- Zara showed Monarchy completed on turn 153, so i did the trade. Alpha+Mat for Archery+M. He would have accepted CoL alone for both (marameo)
- t.156: Mr. Niels Bohr (Great Scientist) born in Delhi. Taoism is founded in Silverado.
- Zara is now researching Construction.
- If he met someone early on (and i'm almost sure he did, that one has to be East)

Everything went exactly according to the plan.

I cancelled the orders of any worker, ready to follow the new plan.

PPP 3.1
Dehli: worker complete next turn, start Aqueduct
Bedrock: Settler in 2, start Galley for sugar. i think we need also an archer, to avoid the settler becomes food for panthers or else. A warrior is too weak and we need them for the final meeting.
Silverado: continues granary
GPF: continues WB

Worker 1: moves to pigs, road/stop, then pasture cows near GPF.
Worker 2: continues mining near Dehli, then? move in Bedrock area? i also like to road to Riverdale. You never know, we can need to move fast. Be prudent.
Worker 3: continues chop until t.160
Worker 4: moves 1E of Bedrock, road/stop then moves to cows, road/stop finally arrives to chop the forest on the site of 3Clams
Worker 5 (ready t. 157): road to Riverdale. I strongly recommend this for safety reasons.

We already played a game with what in Civ 3 was called "a farmer gambit" and we finished with bad surprises. Better invest some worker turn in roads and move fast the defenders where needed.
Same i recommend for the western area. 1 measly road, but we can't think to move an axe or any other defender in 10 turns from city to city.

Final note: i think i'm back in-game. Be warned.

 

[Mitchum]

Everything went exactly according to the plan.

Excellent work!!

Worker 1: moves to pigs, road/stop, then pasture cows near GPF.

I usually prioritize food over hammers, so I would be more inclined to pasture the pigs first. If we do decide to pasture the cows first, I would recommend a partial pasture on the pigs rather than a partial road.

Worker 2: continues mining near Dehli, then? move in Bedrock area? i also like to road to Riverdale. You never know, we can need to move fast. Be prudent.

If we're serious about the Hanging Gardens, we may need Worker 2 and Worker 5 to chop around Delhi before either of them move on to other tasks. It would also be good to put in all of the chops on the final 2 turns if possible to avoid losing the hammers if another AI beats us to the HG.

Worker 5 (ready t. 157): road to Riverdale. I strongly recommend this for safety reasons.

I think roads are a low priority right at the moment. Unclethrill has built 2/3 of a road between Delhi and Riverdale already. So once we've chopped the Hanging Gardens in Delhi, one worker should be able to complete the road at 1 tile per turn as he moves to Riverdale to build a cottage/farm or chop a forest there.