SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

Our Timezones Relative to Universal Time (aka UTC aka GMT)
Mitchum = -7 hours
Dhoomstriker = -4 hours
BLubmuz = +2 hours
Unclethrill = +2 hours
Havr = +3 hours (but will be -4 hours in a couple of weeks)
Irgy = + 10 hours

Please correct me if I made errors in any of my calculations.


So, let's give a few scenarios:

Scenario 1: Mitchum wakes up early and Irgy loses sleep
Mitchum = 9 am
Dhoomstriker = Noon
BLubmuz = 6 pm
Unclethrill = 6 pm
Havr = 7 pm
Irgy = 2 am (yikes)


Scenario 2: Some of us might be losing sleep
Mitchum = 2 pm
Dhoomstriker = 5 pm
BLubmuz = 11 pm (too late?)
Unclethrill = 11 pm (too late?)
Havr = Midnight (really pushing it)
Irgy = 7 am (EDIT: Irgy actually likes this time)


Scenario 3: Probably a bit too late for Mitchum and me, at least for me to START a turnset (that's probably one of the lowest energy points of your day, at 4 am--not a great time to play a turnset)
Mitchum = 1 am (yikes)
Dhoomstriker = 4 am (really taking it for the team)
BLubmuz = 10 am
Unclethrill = 10 am
Havr = 11 am
Irgy = 6 pm


Scenario 4: Requires some of you to wake up early, but if you're just reading and commenting things like "yup, sounds good" or "no, please do Y instead of X," instead of playing, maybe it's not too big of a deal to wake up that early
Mitchum = 11 pm
Dhoomstriker = 2 am
BLubmuz = 8 am (too early?)
Unclethrill = 8 am (too early?)
Havr = 9 am (too early?)
Irgy = 4 pm


On top of that timing, we have to be mindful of the fact of WHICH DAY it is for the other players. The last two examples are easier to calculate, as they almost all have times falling on the same day as each other, but the first two examples require us to "think about the day," especially for Irgy, since he'll be a day ahead of the rest of us in the first two examples.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

In fact, maybe I should even reconsider my plans and see if I can swap Civics into Police State for a bit when I am building the second Galley and the Archer, since we aren't really running Specialists anywhere and we should have sufficient Happiness to temporarily forego the Representation Happiness bonus.

I tried this path out and indeed, we have enough Happiness to pull it off, especially since our City that has the lowest amount of spare Happiness (Delhi) will shortly thereafter be stopping growth temporarily by buiding a Settler.

I actually save 1 turn on the Settler that comes after the Archer thanks to the bonus Hammers into the Archer from Police State, so I like this change and will edit it into the Partial PPP.

 

[Mitchum]

@ Dhoomstriker

I think the PPP looks good. I like how you snuck in a market in Delhi to take advantage of the OR bonus. Plus, a scouting work boat is nice. I didn't realize that you had to "find" and AI city before you could have a trade route for it. I was about to comment that we'll need a worker for Sugar Island, but I noticed that you took care of that as well. Very nice all around.

I think scenario 1 is good, but you can play about 3 hours earlier if it would help Irgy. That would give us:

Scenario 1a:
Mitchum = 6 am
Dhoomstriker = 9 am
BLubmuz = 3 pm
Unclethrill = 3 pm
Havr = 4 pm
Irgy = 11 pm

I'll check in when I get up at 7 am.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'll check in when I get up at 7 am.

Okay, I can wake up then to play, but do we have enough consensus for me to just go ahead and play?

It'll only have been just over 12 hours for the PPP at that point. Of course, if a couple of people between now and the times that Mitchum listed can say "go ahead and play," then I guess since it's only a partial PPP and since I've already talked about most of the things that I'd be doing, and since it's the weekend, and since I won't even be able to finish the whole partial PPP without requiring feedback, we can push forward with playing at that time unless someone comes up with an objection before that time?

I like how you snuck in a market in Delhi to take advantage of the OR bonus.

It actually helps us out a TON, because we are running somewhere around a 35% Science Rate with it, and probably closer to 20% to 25% without it (I'm using Binary Science, but if you run a Science Rate at 0% for 7 turns and at 100% for 3 turns, you're effectively running a 30% Science Rate). I fudged those figures, but the point is clear: that Market makes a huge impact due to the Bureaucracy bonus on Delhi's Commerce and us having to run most of our turns at a 0% Science Rate.

Plus, a scouting work boat is nice. I didn't realize that you had to "find" and AI city before you could have a trade route for it.

I didn't either. In BTS, at least, after having done some experimenting, it appears that if you have a connection to a City via water routes, you're connected, but if that City is only connected to other Cities in its Civ via water routes, you're not connected to those other Cities--you must find a City that is connected via Roads and have a visible water connection to THAT City.

So, in this regard, we could be a bit behind other teams that explored early on with a Work Boat, ASSUMING that they can get the relevant AIs content enough to want to Open Borders with them...

I was about to comment that we'll need a worker for Sugar

Yeah, that Worker will probably just end chopping Jungle on the Sugar for a while until we can eventually trade for Calendar, but it's a start. Either way, the Jungle has to go, pre-Calendar or post-Calendar, so I might as well get a start on things now.

Scenario 1a:
Mitchum = 6 am
Dhoomstriker = 9 am
BLubmuz = 3 pm
Unclethrill = 3 pm
Havr = 4 pm
Irgy = 11 pm

Okay, I'm off to bed then, so that I can wake up after several hours to potentially play. Hopefully by that point, a few of the others will have had a chance to wake up and log in to give their go ahead to play or veto playing so soon.

Normally, you'd want to veto because the PPP was too vague or it was obvious that the player hadn't really run any test games. I dare someone to challenge me on either of these points! Okay, goodnight!

 

[Irgy]

To be honest, I have a lot of time during the day during the week to make comments (not run test games) but don't know when I can commit to on a weekend. I'll do my best to be there at the right time, but I can't guarantee it so don't organise the time around me. Of those options oddly 7am was the best, I tend to wake up early and I have my time to myself when I do.

 

[Irgy]

Ok should have read further on before responding. 11pm it is. Is that tonight? I'll do my best to be online.

 

[unclethrill]

Your PPP looks great to me. Go ahead and make it so Number One!

 

[BLubmuz]

Scenarios 1 e 2 are the best for me, 3 can be OK if i don't have to go somewhere (and usually i can't know in advance).

Police state for a single unit in a single city? Sure it's worth?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Police state for a single unit in a single city? Sure it's worth?

We aren't using the value of the Representation Civic during the time window where we switch to Police State.

The Maintenance Costs are equivalent at this stage of the game between Representation and Police State for the initial turn, but then go up by one Gold per Turn after a turn or two. Since we will stay in that Civic for about 7 turns, the total cost is 5 to 6 Gold.

Delhi gains 6 Hammers and shaves a turn off of building the Settler that comes immediately after building the Archer.

Bedrock gains 12 Hammers on the Galley or what works out to actually be gaining 12 Hammers on the Granary.

3 Hammers to 1 Commerce is a pretty worthwhile ratio, if you ask me.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Scenarios 1 e 2 are the best for me, 3 can be OK if i don't have to go somewhere (and usually i can't know in advance).

Well Scenario 1 comes a bit later, when Irgy is asleep, but it sounds like he was fine with Scenario 2.

Did you see Mitchum's time proposal? Scenario 1a? Are you okay with me playing shortly according to Scenario 1a (3pm for BLubz)?

BLubz seemed to express some hesitation to my PPP. While everyone else but Havr seemed to be okay with me going ahead, since 24 hours from posting the PPP have not elapsed AND because at least one player expressed a concern instead of a "go ahead and play" type of message, I'll have to wait on BLubz' go-ahead.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Rescheduling
Alright, how about if BLubz hasn't responded by 20 mins after this scheduled time (it's already been more than 10 mins after this scheduled time), we will post-pone until the Scenario 2 time, which is essentially 8 hours later minus those 20 mins, so that Irgy can get some sleep.

Unclethrill didn't say whether or not Scenario 2 would be too late for him, but it'll be close to the 24 hours after posting the PPP (and it really is only a partial PPP, plus it contains a lot of details, plus we have the expectation to stop play frequently, but I'd still like an official "go" or "no go" from BLubz, since my response to his concern might not sway him).

It's what I have to offer at the moment.


EDIT: Okay, please consider this play time to have been officially post-poned.

We'll reconvene according to Schedule 2 in just under 8 hours and hopefully we can get the game going at that time.

Scenario 2:
Mitchum = 2 pm on Sat, July 3
Dhoomstriker = 5 pm on Sat, July 3
BLubmuz = 11 pm on Sat, July 3
Unclethrill = 11 pm on Sat, July 3
Havr = Midnight on the night of Sat, July 3/on the morning of Sun, July 4
Irgy = 7 am on Sun, July 4

 

[BLubmuz]

Sorry, i was away and just checked the thread.
Unless something unexpected happens, i won't have problems to watch for news in this thread, for some 9 hours from now.

Your answer about PS is enough for me. Go, good luck!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Seeing no further messages, I'm going to start playing.

Requests have been made for me to stop play under the following conditions:
1. Not settle a new City until the surrounding area has been scouted and the team has been able to give their input on the decision
2. Discuss the situation when a new AI is met

We also have a standing rule in the team to stop under the following condition, so I'll do the same if it happens:
3. A demand comes in from an AI that we haven't previously discussed (since it has been a while since we've discussed this issue and since our opinions may have changed since then, I will pause play for all demands that an AI makes)


I will start playing until one of the above happens then report back here. If you'd like to add more items to the list for stopping play in the future, please let me know what they would be.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

T162 (170 BC)
We are the worst enemy of Saladin. No surprise there.
Currency will indeed be learned on this turn at a 100% Science Rate, so our test saved game lived up to its purpose

T163 (155 BC)
We Met Justinian. He is Buddhist!!! That makes 3 Buddhist AIs!

Spoiler :

39% of the World is listed as being Buddhist.
He will Open Borders immediately--I am planning to do so, and if I get even some minimal feedback agreeing with this decision, I will do so and will play onwards.

Spoiler :

He came from the west and his exploring Work Boat is just "half a turn behind" (one square behind) Toku's exploring Work Boat.

We also picked up Currency and The Hanging Gardens.

 

[Mitchum]

Yes, open borders with Justinian. We need Buddhism to spread to us and any chace we can get the better. We'll be revolting to Free Religion soon, so our relations will only get better.

 

[Irgy]

Yay

I can't see why we wouldn't want to open borders. Another Buddhist, and they're the ones we're trying to please.

 

[Mitchum]

BTW, he still needs Alphabet. Do you plan to sell it to him once he has a bit more gold?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Note that of the AIs that we have met, he has only met Toku and Saladin, but that situation will probably change once his Work Boat goes through our territory and he meets Zara. That's the only potential downside to the Open Borders agreement, but I think it's a situation that we'll just have to live with.

Eventually, someone is going to ask us to stop being buddies with Zara. So be it.

 

[BLubmuz]

Sure, OB with Justy. It's too soon to see how the island looks like, i think.

I'm afraid that we can't accept a "cancel deals" with Zara. He can become cautious and wipe us. Better a -1 Diplo but survive. We need him pleased until we have a decent military. And ROADS to move it.

Go on, i'm curious to see that island!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, play continues...

T163 (155 BC) continued
Opened Borders with Justinian.
Research set to Aesthetics
Science Rate set to 0%
Delhi starts building a Market
Bedrock, Grt Person Farm, Risaia, Crabs, and Three Clams all whipped
Taoism was successfully spread in Riverdale and work was begun on a Taoist Monastary
After creating the Fishing Boats on our Fish shared by Crabs and GPF, it seems that multiple AIs were willing to accept a Fish Resource (that's not a normal situation). I traded with Justinian for 3 GPT, since that was the best offer at the time, since that trade met our pre-planned trading actions, and since we want to start a trade deal going with him. He's got junk for Resources (Cow and Copper), so GPT is probably the best that we'll get out of him. I'll be interested to see what we can get out of Toku once we can get on his good side, as his list of "Won't Trade" Resources has a scrollbar!
Zara has several turns until he learns Construction and no one else is willing to trade techs at this point in time, so I end the turn

T164 (140 BC)
Grt Person Farm is back to working the GPig
Our Settler Party has climbed aboard our Galley 1
Upon creating our Fishing Boats on the Clam, it appears that only Saladin wants Clam. Since he now is willing to offer 3 GPT (last turn it was 0 or 1 GPT), I take that deal. The only Resource that he will trade us otherwise is Cow (which is junk).
Delhi whips the Market and switches the squares that it is working according to the Partial PPP
Riverdale whips the Taoist Monastary
Civics changed to Police State and Paganism (Bedrock's Galley will gain 8 Hammers this turn and more later)
Religion changed to No State Religion
No one has any techs being offered in trade, but that situation may change next turn, once the No State Religion Diplomatic change kicks in. On that note, if we switch in and out of Confucianism every 5 turns, we technically only have a trading window of 4 out of every 10 turns, instead of 5 out of every 10 turns. That's not a big deal, but something to keep at the back of your mind when you time your Religion changes and your tech trading deals.

T165 (125 BC)
These blasted AIs won't let me play my turnset!
We met Isabella. She is Hindu. I do not want to Open Borders with her, since we don't want our domestic Religions to spread anymore than they apparently already have.

Spoiler :

I cannot see any of her units, but if the AI theme of exploration holds true, she found us with a Work Boat. She has Open Borders with Zara and hasn't met anyone else that we know.

Note that she isn't at war with Zara, so she is either planning a war with Zara, planning a war with the last remaining AI, or is already at war with the last remaining AI. She can't be planning a war with us (yet) because I didn't get a demand from her (you can't get a demand on the first turn that an AI meets you, as your first contact decision is "Do you want to start off relations at Peace or at War with me?").

Saladin has no Worst Enemy. In fact, Saladin is now willing to give us Calendar for Currency (with a minor difference of 5 Gold). I haven't yet taken the trade but plan to take it once I continue the turnset.

Spoiler :

Tokugawa is being his typical self, but since we're about to trade Currency away to Saladin, my suggestion is to trade it to Tokugawa, too, otherwise they'll likely just trade it bewteen themselves. It will be a 100% gift, which will hopefully get us to Pleased status with Toku, in order to open up trading options (Open Borders, Resources, and eventually Techs--although a lot of other AIs have to know a tech before he'll trade one away, with the exception of a Friendly player like Saladin). If we get to Pleased status, I'll ask for a tiny tribute of Gold. Usually, if you are either ahead in Power or you have gifted a relatively-monopolistic tech recently after meeting an AI (they value things that you give to them less over time, as the duration of time that they've known you get averaged into gifts and trades), then they will almost always give you what you ask for (as long as it is a reasonable request--I'll have to wait until he shows "10 Gold" willing to be traded with us, as currently he lists "0 Gold," but that value could increase once he learns Currency and his economy improves). If we still needed Fishing, for example, I'd ask for that, since we will have "overtraded" by gifting our relative-monopoly on Currency. All of that is off of the table if Toku won't get to a Pleased status, though... no demands can be made of Cautious or lower Attitude-level AIs.

Spoiler :

I also have a screenshot showing the current relations between AIs and showing the Justinian and Zara have met.

Spoiler :

Justinian

BTW, he still needs Alphabet. Do you plan to sell it to him once he has a bit more gold?

Honestly, if Justinian manages to get a tech that we want, he might take a "well-known" and thus "low-valued" tech like Alphabet in trade with another "well-known" tech, valuing the two of them together to equal the better tech. Maybe not something like Metal Casting, but a slightly cheaper tech like Construction is one that we might score on.

Otherwise, he'll just slowly research Alphabet or other techs himself over time, which is fine because it would keep the Buddhist block less technologically advanced if they have to repeat research.

On that note, I double-checked and yes, Saladin and Toku are the only two AIs to have:
Calendar
AND
Construction

No other AIs as of T165 (125 BC) have techs that we don't have. Unfortunately, Saladin won't offer up Construction

Spoiler :

it must be due to it being a military tech or due to AIs being very willing to trade around Calendar, just like they are very willing to trade around Fishing, Animal Husbandry, and Monarchy.