SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

SGOTM Progress Page
With the recent Military Unit production, we have catapulted out of last place on the Power Graph to being ahead of at least 3 teams.

That's great as it means that we've been successfully been able to leverage a "lean" miltary up until now.

Within the span of 10 turns, we've gone up about 115 points in Power, although Machinery contributed a bit on top of the extra Military Units.

We can also estimate from the graphs that other than Plastic Ducks and Gypsy Kings, most teams will not have more than double the size of our army. Since we built "hopefully just a bit more than enough" Military Units to take on the Barb Cities (we'll be doomed if there are Mech Infantry no matter what units we use, so we have to plan that there aren't Mech Infantry and be ready to change our plan if some do exist), we're still running a pretty "lean" empire Military-wise.


We're also no longer at the bottom of the Score heap, so I hope that you can see that our strategy has not doomed us afterall!

Still, I would rather see our Score flaten out for the next little bit if it means generating a lot of much-needed Great Scientists. There is a short time range where Great Scientists will be extremely useful, right up until we learn Liberalism. After that point, they will still be important, but will turn out to be almost useless (except for to save as our last 4 Great People) after that point.

So, ideally, we'll get Great Scientists for the next little while. Later, it would also help us to get a Great Artist or two.


After that point, close to the end of the game, we'll hopefully have enough buildings built in Grt Person Farm and Three Clams that we can drop Caste System and just run whichever Specialists will "fit" in Specialists slots--including Priests from Temples, as we'll just need "SOME" (four) Great People, without really caring what type they are. We already know that we'll have enough buildings in Delhi, since Oxford University alone allows us to hire 3 extra Scientists.


On the Cultural front, it looks like Maple Sporks are definitely going for a late-game Cultural win. To be fair, over the span of 300 years, they rose from 30000 Culture to just over 160000. Given that they need 75000 * 3 = 225000 Culture, spread evenly amongst 3 Cities, they probably won't hit 3 Legendary Cities until they receive around 260000 Culture on the score graph. So, they are still quite a ways from victory at 1485 AD.


The Dwarven team, the one with a ton of apostrophes in their name (T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't), looks like they might also be planning on going for a Cultural win.


One Short Straw also did it again: a drop in Score matching a drop in Power. Perhaps they are just "messing with us" and are disbanding old units, but otherwise, they probably got declared upon a second time. Those are the only two things that I can of that might cause a simultaneous drop in Power and Score, but I admit that I hardly ever pay attention to these values in a game, so there might be a lot of other reasons which would cause such a simultaneous drop that I just haven't thought about.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Timing of Playing

First, i surely will post the save with a day of delay respect the schedule.

No real worries here. Hopefully, Irgy can still get us a test saved game, both so that you can have a "trial run" instead of a "trial by fire" and so that we can get an updated test saved game for Unclethrill, who will certainly be overwhelmed when he first comes back.

After you start, if something really bad happens, do not feel the pressure to play on. It would be better to pause play, even for up to a day, one or two times, and "get things right." We are getting to the point in the game where things like "refusing to accept a demand" will be counted as if they were PERMANENT negative Diplo modifiers, since they will probably take too long to wear off. So, each AI Demand must be treated very carefully.

For example, if an AI Demands Paper or Philosophy, we might just have to give it to them, even if it means taking a "weaker" technology when we complete reasearch on Liberalism.


Reacting to Justinian

- our planned troop movement through his territory, since thay cannot be safe and they would move too slow.
- all the plans regarding galleys in his cities to ferry units to the barb island

Those are both really good points. Let us hope that they will not apply to our game and that Justinian leaves us alone.

- case b) Just keeps his galleys right outside our borders, waiting for the end of forced peace:
switch to PS/Theo for 5 turns, to have a handful of units built. Then switch as in case a).

PS/Theo/Vassalage, right?

Those builds are for case a).

Agreed, so if b) happens, you're probably best pausing play before playing much of T231, so that we can reassess the build orders.

If unfortunately b) happens, looking to our cities build potential, only Dehli can build units in a decent time without need to whip the hell.

Police State DOES give a sizable bonus and even slow-buliding Chariots would be better than not building any units in several cases.

I would be VERY hestitant to whip in either Delhi or Grt Person Farm, but if we need to whip to survive, we can certainly do so in other Cities.

or if i can just use the units for the barb campaign to defend

They would certainly help, but we'd want to retreat them all back onto our continent ASAP, at least until we got peace with Justinian again, as they are vulnerable when they are in Saladin's territory.

Actually, i can't see a great benefit from Vassallage and a switch to PS only for a city is not worth, IMHO.

How about we say that if case b) happens, you will pause play WITHOUT switching Civics?

That way, we will put Irgy in an Iron Maiden until he gets us the test saved game and then we can play the test saved game forward 1 turn just to see the effects of choosing different Civic combinations.

So i think we can just switch from OR to Theo to gain 2XP (it's enough fot the first promo, anyway) and after 2 units are built switch to Pacifism.

My gut instinct is that if we would only build units in one City, that we would just go for Pacifism anyway. Who cares if 2 Macemen have Combat I or Combat 0--the fact that we have a couple of more units will matter more than 1 promotion will matter. So, since we do not seem to be in agreement on how to proceed if war breaks out, let's just say "pause play" if war breaks out and then we can run a few test saved games to see which Civics should be used and which Cities should whip (if any).


Worker 6

There's a flaw in the workers action proposed: worker 6, now farming near Crabs is in danger in case of war. so, better move him in a safe place. Probably the best option is to road that strange desert tile.

Do not forget that Justinian cannot declare war for 2 turns. The Farm will be finished by Worker 6 at the end of this turn. After the Farm is finished, sure, move him inland and build a Road, if you prefer.


AI Tech Level

I noticed Just does not have CS yet, so if he attacks, we'll see LB, axes, swords, cats or chariots. Luckily he lacks guilds and HBR too, so he can't have his powerful UU.

Indeed, that is the beautiful part about a potential war: we have pretty equal tech (or better, in the case of Macemen) compared to whatever Justinian packed on his boats several turns ago.


Workers:

aside the one i wrote above, basically farms everywhere but near a forest, in the hope that something will grow. Roads to connect the cities, no more.

To be honest, we're getting to a point where Farming all of our Grassland squares in fat crosses becomes more important than hoping for Forest regrowth.

The only spot that I might delay Farming for a bit is the PRiv 1S of Riverdale, since there is a Tundra Forest right next to there and an extra Forest would help a lot in terms of building The United Nations.

Other Forests... well, they probably won't be used for "important" buildings anyway, so Forest regrowth within a fat cross isn't all that important. Still, outside of our fat crosses, we can still hope for some Forest regrowth, which is why all of the squares that should get a Road are marked. The squares that aren't marked with a "Road" sign shouldn't really get a Road.

Workshops

I've seen Dhoom recommended a couple of Workshops for Crabs.

Sorry, if I said Crabs, it was a mistake. I meant the Plains squares in Three Clams' fat cross (the north-west City with 3 Clams). There are two "regular" Plains squares there (no Forests on them). Since I figured that we would be running a lot of Specialists in that City for a long time, when we go to grow the City at the end of the game, we'll probably work Coast squares instead of PIrr squares. So, I suggested Workshops there, to provide us flexibility in case we wanted Hammers.

Over the forests?

No. I think that a PFor is still going to be better than a Plains Workshop (1F + 2H versus 0F + 1 to 3H), so it is worth keeping the PFor squares around.

I will see a workshop also for Risaia, its production is ridiculous without slavery.

What do we really need production for, anyway?
More Food = More Population = More Specialists.
More Food = More Population = More Diplo Votes.
More Hammers = More Buildings that we don't really need. Don't forget that we get 5 Hammers for now in Risaia, thanks to the City Centre square plus a Confucian Temple and a Confucian Monastary.

The only reason why I suggested the Workshops was because I didn't think that Three Clams would keep growing, since it is SUPPOSED to be a secondary Great Person Farm. In other words, we wouldn't be working the Plains squares whether they were Farms or Workshops for a long time anyway, so I felt that we might as well stay flexible with Workshops. Other spots should keep focusing on Farms, though, if you ask me, since Workshops will remain very weak based on our tech path.

Specialists:

Scientists everywhere, as much as possible while let the city slowly grow.

Sounds good, although we can even consider letting many Cities temporarily lose some stored Food from their Foodboxes, as long as their Foodboxes do not go empty.

EDIT: The exceptions are the ones that I already listed previously:
Exceptions to this rule would be for us to keep working squares like Silverado's Silver, Bedrock's Flood Plains Cottages and GHorse, Goldfish's Gold, and it is up to you if you keep working the GHorse in Mystic (it makes 1 less Commerce than Bedrock's GHorse, but we might want to keep working it. Hiring a Representation-based Scientist would most certainly be preferable to working Mystic's Incense (6 Flasks plus GPP beats 6 Commerce)--however, we don't have a Library there yet, which is why I suggest that we work the Incense when not in Caste System--at least until we get some GIrr squares set up in Mystic and can work those squares for growth, perhaps growing in someone else's turnset).

Wheaties: Maybe we should not hire any Scientists in Wheaties. Instead, we should build a Forge -> Chichen Itza for Failure Gold (do not complete the Wonder). We'll make far more money than we will by building Wealth and since this City is our production monster and it doesn't have a lot of excess Food, we're probably better focusing on getting Failure Gold here instead of running Scientists. Before Chichen Itza is complete, we can switch to building Angkor Wat for more Failure Gold.

No use of whip if not in the inherited turn where planned.

Yes, other than that Lighthouse in Ivory Towers, where we will see an immediate Food benefit form whipping, we should do out best to stay off of the whip.

Inform the team only if a major unexpected event happens. What Just will do is already been discussed and we already decided the countermeasures.

I will give in to any demand but for paper or philo.

I think that we are at the point where we might have to give into Paper and Philo demands, too. Let's check the XML...
Memory Decays
Consider that we hope to win in about 100 turns (I doubt that we'll be that fast, but we should plan for it Diplomatically), anything where it says 100 or more in the list below is something that we almost for sure have to accept the AI's Demand for.

MEMORY_REFUSED_HELP = 100 for all 6 AIs

MEMORY_REJECTED_DEMAND = 150 for all 6 AIs

MEMORY_DENIED_RELIGION = 50 for all 6 AIs (we can still refuse these requests, if we want to do so, but since MEMORY_ACCEPTED_RELIGION = 100 for all AIs, we might as well accept a switch into Buddhism for a free +1)

MEMORY_DENIED_CIVIC = 50 for all 6 AIs (even though MEMORY_ACCEPTED_CIVIC = 100 for all 6 AIs, since Pacifism is very important right now, you should probably strongly consider refusing to switch into Theocracy during your turnset--in later turnsets we might have no choice but to accept)

MEMORY_DENIED_JOIN_WAR = 100 for all 6 AIs. Here is the tricky part. If an AI declares war, I suggest that you pause play and consult with the team. We'll probably need to consider Begging (but only from a Pleased or Greater attitude AI--it won't work for Toku, for example, since he would give us -1 for asking and would likely refuse us anyway), or perhaps consider paying off the aggressor--it's best to just consult the team if an AI war declaration occurs.

MEMORY_DENIED_STOP_TRADING = 50 for all 6 AIs. This one is a bit surprising, as it gives us a bit of flexibility in refusing to stop trading with an AI. However, Toku will give us -2 instead of -1, so we do not want him to ask us to stop trading with Zara... I'm not sure if -2 would take twice as long to disappear, making it count as 100 turns???


Note that I am also not sure if these numbers scale for Epic Speed to 1.5 their values. If anyone has a way of finding out for certain, it would be appreciated.


Binary research:

as soon as i will have enough gold to run it for 1 turn, i will raise the slider.
Only exception the inherited turn, since we'll complete the OU next one.

Sounds good.



Various:

i've seen your points for Whales: i just keep an eye if a settler party appears, otherwise, not in this TS.

Thank you. I know that you want to settle it for the Resource trades, but the AIs do not really have anything to offer us at the moment, so it is hard to justify.

If a bunch of them had 6 or 7 Gold per Turn to trade to us, then it could make sense to settle Whales for the extra Gold per Turn by selling Silver around, but most AIs have 0 Gold per Turn.

Do not forget: Trade Fish to Isabella for 3 Gold per Turn on the inherrited turn (T230).

there're some chops in Wheaties/Mystic area: shoud i use them?

I would only chop the GFor that is S + S of Mystic, since we want to put a Farm there. The other two are best left as Forests, to hope that they spread new Forest growth. If new Forests grow, then we can chop the new Forests, fair?


A Fort in the south

Not clear why you want a fort: i see that a galley can better move, but i think this will be our last priority.

There is no rush to build a Fort there. It can wait. However, we might eventually want a "southern passage" for our naval units. Since there is Ice blocking us down there (SW + S + S of Silverado), a boat that wants to travel from Silverado to Whales would have to sail around our entire continent in a clockwise direction.

You don't even have to build the Fort within your turnset--you can leave it for a future turnset. It was just an "idea" for what to do with a Worker when he runs out of other things to do.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Can you kindly make sure that the following points make it into your PPP somewhere?

EDIT: Note that I changed the Wheat to a Pig (now that we have Pig connected and since Zara can use just about any Resource, why not keep Wheat for ourselves?!?). Also, I added a 5th reason to pause play that I think is important enough to do so for.

- The timing for cancelling deals with Zara:
T230: Cancel Open Borders with Zara
T230: Cancel Wheat deal with Zara
T230: Trade Pig to Zara for whatever Gold per Turn that he will give us. Gift him Pig if he will not give us any Gold per Turn.
T240: Cancel Pig deal with Zara
T240: Trade Pig to Zara for whatever Gold per Turn that he will give us. Gift him Pig if he will not give us any Gold per Turn.
T250: Cancel Pig deal with Zara
T250: IF we do not need the excess Health by this point, trade Pig to Zara for whatever Gold per Turn that he will give us. Gift him Pig if he will not give us any Gold per Turn. If we need the excess Health from the Pig at this point, then Zara can go without our Pig for a while and we will still keep the "Supplied us with Resources" Diplo bonus for a while.

- T230: Trade Fish for 3 GPT with Isabella

- The Apostolic Palace voting option: Select the option of Stopping the War against Zara Yaqob

- Here are some major events where you should probably pause play to consult with the team on how to proceed:
1. War is declared by anyone on anyone
2. An AI Demands Paper or Philosophy (or an AI Demands any tech that you are tempted to refuse to give to them)
3. Toku asks us to cancel deals with Zara
4. The Apostolic Palace resolution fails (either an AI Defies it or enough AIs vote "no" to it)
5. An AI gets or loses a Fist icon. In particular, if either Toku or Justinian lose their Fist icon, we should strongly consider switching Religion to Buddhism and trying to bribe them into a new war (against Mehmed).

Spoiler :

Unfortunately, both of them went into "our hands are too full" mode before either one had met Mehmed, so Mehmed cannot be their current war target.

We might have a maximum of one turn in which to convince them to join our war before they get their hands full again, so please watch the Fist icon area carefully.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Power of the Pope
We can "cheat" and find out that 5 population points worth of Mehmed's have access to Confucianism.

Likely, that means he just has 1 Confucian City for now.


The downside is that we can't declare a Holy War on him as long as he has that City, but the upside is that he (so far) only has one such City that would have to be captured or razed if we wanted to declare Holy War on him.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Riverdale's Specialists
Riverdale won't get Buddhism, because we may want to gift this City to Zara with the express intention of him NOT running Buddhism.

Getting the Confucian Holy City (Riverdale) MIGHT be sufficient incentive to make him want to stay in Confucianism, but let's not tempt him by making it too easy for him to switch into Buddhism.

So, if and when an AI asks us to switch into Buddhism (or if we choose to do so ourselves, say, for better Diplo Relations), Riverdale won't be getting the Pacifism bonus.

Therefore, if it generates a Great Person, it won't be until the end of the game.

At the end of the game, we either want Great Artists for Lightbulbing or we will not care what type of Great Person that we get. However, Great Scientists will be pretty useless to us at the end of the game, being no better than Great Prophets.


THUS... Riverdale should focus on running Artist Specialists instead of Scientist Specialists. The added benefit, of course, is extra Cultural output in a City that could use it, while also giving us a decent amount of a Science boost (+4 Flasks and +4 Culture for an Artist compared to +6 Flasks for a Scientist).

 

[Irgy]

Well, trying to update the test game, but I get to turn 222 and Survamayan declares war on me. So it's going to diverge somewhat at that point. Does anyone know what I can do to fix it?

I've attached two saves in any case, one turn 222 that's correct except for the DOW (I haven't done the turn 222 things yet though), and one that's turn 230 but was from a run before I played the turnset (and I think has a mistake or two in it). Once I know what to do about the DOW I'll do the rest of the moves from the one at T222.

Sorry this is taking so long

EDIT - I can't get the 850AD save to upload. It seems to work but just doesn't appear. I tried renaming it in case it was because of a name clash, but that hasn't fixed it. I'm not over my space limit either. I'll try and upload it again in a new post.
EDIT2 - Ok, the problem is it's the same save I uploaded in an earlier post, no sense uploading it again. I thought I had a newer one but it looks like I only saved on 775AD when I ran my last test run.

PS here's the autolog from uploading the file for what it's worth. I thought I'd lost it but it was still open in a tab:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 700 AD to 850 AD:

Turn 220, 700 AD: Gandhi adopts Police State!
Turn 220, 700 AD: Gandhi adopts Vassalage!
Turn 220, 700 AD: Gandhi adopts Theocracy!
Turn 220, 700 AD: You have constructed a Confucian Temple in Sugar Daddy. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 220, 700 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Ivory Towers. Work has now begun on a Trireme.
Turn 220, 700 AD: Mehmed II adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 220, 700 AD: The Apostolic Palace voting members have announced their decision: Sign open borders with all members (Requires 130 of 210 Total Votes)

Turn 221, 715 AD: You have declared war on Mehmed II!
Turn 221, 715 AD: Tokugawa has completed The Sistine Chapel!
Turn 221, 715 AD: Isabella adopts Vassalage!

Turn 222, 730 AD: Buddhism has spread in Three Clams.
Turn 222, 730 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 222, 730 AD: Zara Yaqob has declared war on Mehmed II!
Turn 222, 730 AD: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Dictator Day"!!!
Turn 222, 730 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Riverdale. Work has now begun on a Longbowman.
Turn 222, 730 AD: Zara Yaqob adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 223, 745 AD: Delhi celebrates "We Love the Dictator Day"!!!

Turn 224, 760 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Riverdale. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 224, 760 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Crabs. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.
Turn 224, 760 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Sugar Daddy. Work has now begun on a Forge.

Turn 225, 775 AD: Gandhi adopts Representation!
Turn 225, 775 AD: Gandhi adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 225, 775 AD: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 225, 775 AD: Saladin has completed Notre Dame!

Turn 226, 790 AD: You have trained Hindu Missionary in Delhi. Work has now begun on Oxford University.
Turn 226, 790 AD: James Clerk Maxwell (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 228, 820 AD: Crabs has grown to size 7.
Turn 228, 820 AD: Mystic can hurry Confucian Temple for 1? with 12? overflow and +1? for 37 turns.
Turn 228, 820 AD: Silverado will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 228, 820 AD: Bedrock will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 228, 820 AD: Grt Person Farm will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 228, 820 AD: Risaia will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 228, 820 AD: Ivory Towers will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 228, 820 AD: You have trained Buddhist Missionary in Three Clams. Work has now begun on a Confucian Monastery.
Turn 228, 820 AD: A Spy has been stumbled upon while operating near the Indian city of Bedrock!

Turn 229, 835 AD: Silverado has grown to size 8.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Bedrock has grown to size 8.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Grt Person Farm has grown to size 9.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Ivory Towers has grown to size 3.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Saladin has 180 gold available for trade.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Mehmed II is willing to negotiate.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Mehmed II will trade Horseback Riding
Turn 229, 835 AD: Will Trade Map: Mehmed II
Turn 229, 835 AD: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Mehmed II
Turn 229, 835 AD: Hinduism has spread in Grt Person Farm.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Mystic.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Riverdale will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Wheaties will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Crabs will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 229, 835 AD: Mystic will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

Turn 230, 850 AD: Riverdale has grown to size 10.
Turn 230, 850 AD: Bedrock can hurry Confucian Monastery for 1? with 47? overflow and +1? for 38 turns.
Turn 230, 850 AD: Wheaties has grown to size 5.
Turn 230, 850 AD: Grt Person Farm can hurry Buddhist Missionary for 1? with 20? overflow and +1? for 96 turns.
Turn 230, 850 AD: Crabs has grown to size 8.
Turn 230, 850 AD: Three Clams can hurry Confucian Monastery for 2? with 35? overflow and +1? for 69 turns.
Turn 230, 850 AD: Ivory Towers can hurry Lighthouse for 1? with 6? overflow and +1? for 46 turns.
Turn 230, 850 AD: Mystic has grown to size 3.
Turn 230, 850 AD: Mehmed II has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 230, 850 AD: Mehmed II has 5 gold per turn available for trade.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Well, trying to update the test game, but I get to turn 222 and Survamayan declares war on me. So it's going to diverge somewhat at that point. Does anyone know what I can do to fix it?

I don't know how to PREVENT him from declaring war, but once he has already done so, you can enter the World Builder and get peace immediately.

In the World Builder, using the icons at the top right of the screen, click on the bottom right icon that reads "Diplomacy Mode."

Under the "Diplomacy" heading at the top left of the pop-up window that appears is a drop-down list. Select "TEST XX - Fifth Element."

Then, on the right-side of that window, look for the heading "Suryavarman II." Under that heading, change the "War with" drop-down list option to "Peace with" drop-down list option. Done. The war is over.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

One more tip: before you upload the final test saved game, it would help if you could increment it from "TEST 16" to "TEST 17."

To do so, you'll rename our Civ's Leader Name.

Once you are playing the relevant game, you can open up the menu that lets you choose options like "Exit to Desktop," "Exit to Main Menu," "Retire," "Load Game," etc. That should be one of the icons at the top right of the screen when you're playing a game. Look the second last option, entitled "Your Details."

Select "Your Details" and you will see that the first textbox lets you edit the Leader Name. Change the value here (increment "TEST 16" to "TEST 17") and then click on the OK button. The change will only apply to the current game, so you'll have to save the game for the change to stay.

Whenever you save your game, the Leader Name is used as part of the saved game name. This way, it's easy for us to keep track of which saved game is which inside of our directories of saved games (and thus it makes it a lot easier to avoid getting confused with our real game, where we are simply named "Gandhi").

 

[BLubmuz]

Some last questions:
- the AP resolution "stop the war against Zara" does involves his war (phony) with Mehmed? Or it's only the war he was DoWed?

- why not switch to buddhism once we have all our cities spreaded? only to keep Zara happy? Or are we waiting to be asked and switch only in that case?

- Is the LOB in sugar part of the Barb task force? Well, i don't like keep an island city defended by a warrior when there're maces (Samurais?) around.

- of course i noted the cancel deal/renew deal with Zara, but can i trade pigs to him instead of wheat? We got only one source of both, but wheat is better for health, due to the granary effect.

I'll play in few hours. If i see nothing interesting from Justy i'll go straight until i receive some demand (in case win key and close the game from the sidebar or with TM) then inform the team and restart from the autosave. Even if i play in safe mode. What is safe mode? A safe mode.

In case of war, be relaxed, i've nothing to learn on warmongering techniques. Provided i have the units

BTW, that spear now moving to Riverdale is better moved W, awaiting Justy move. Then he will move depending on case a) (E) or b) (W).

 

[BLubmuz]

I don't really know in what context you are trying to use the word synthetic.

The dictionary says that "Latin is a synthetic language, while English is analytic," but that still doesn't really help me to understand what you are trying to say, as I don't really know how they're using "analytic" in that context, either.

Examle of non-Synthetic:

Blocking Chemistry Lightbulbs: Engineering or Gunpowder?: I say trade for Engineering, but DO NOT learn Gunpowder. However, we should only trade for Engineering AFTER we have either traded for Astronomy or have learned Astronomy ourselves, to avoid exceeding WFYABTA limits ruining a potential Astronomy trade
Since we won't trading for ONE of Engineering or Gunpowder, so that a Chemistry Lightbulb is blocked for our Great Scientists, I would suggest that the tech that we choose to learn would be Engineering.

The extra movement points of units, including Missionaries, will be useful to us. If we learn Gunpowder, more of the AIs will find it easier to get Gunpowder, and we would like to keep Zara and Mehmed from learning Gunpowder for as long as possible, as their Unique Units are Musketeers. Musketmen. Musketeers are the French UU

Example of the same concept, quicker to write and to read. IMO, with the same clearness.

Chemistry requires both Engineering and Gunpowder. Engineering is useful for the units movements, Gunpowder for nothing but unlocking Chemistry (Musketmen are the worst units in the game, even in their UU versions). Also, for a beeline to Electricity, Gunpowder is to avoid, because a GS will bulb Chemistry and Biology after SM, instead of the stright path to Electricity (Astro > SM > Physics > Elec)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

- the AP resolution "stop the war against Zara" does involves his war (phony) with Mehmed? Or it's only the war he was DoWed?

If the resolution passes, all players with at least 1 Confucian City will be at Peace with Zara for 10 turns.

Those who were at war will automatically be at peace.
Those were at peace will be unable to declare war.
Zara will also be unable to declare war on anyone (including us) for those 10 turns.

So, it's a great way of preventing Toku from attacking us and it also stops us from being attacked by Zara for a 10-turn time period.

The only downside is that we would have to bribe Zara to join the war against Mehmed again in the future, but Zara doesn't have a high tech pace, so we can later afford to give him a tech (sometime after we learn Liberalism, likely, since now he just wants Paper and Philoosphy). However, if Toku and Justinian are just going to declare war on Zara soon anyway, then Zara really could use this "enforced peace" to avoid becoming someone's vassal, so it's a pretty vital part of our strategy (maintaining Zara's freedom).

- why not switch to buddhism once we have all our cities spreaded? only to keep Zara happy? Or are we waiting to be asked and switch only in that case?

It is primarily due to a tradeoff between Flasks. We have far more Confucian Buildings than we do Buddhist buildings. Each buiding of our State Religion will give us 2 Flasks per turn. Naturally, we'd rather get (just a rough guess) 26 Flasks per turn instead of (just a rough guess) 8 Flasks per turn, simply by having Confucianism instead of Buddhism as our State Religion.

However, the +1 You accepted our State Religion is more important than getting those Flasks for 5 turns, so we would accept a request to switch into Buddhism.

If either Toku or Justnian lose their "hands are too full" fist, we'll probably also consider switching into Buddhism, to see if we can bribe them to join our fight against Mehmed.

- Is the LOB in sugar part of the Barb task force? Well, i don't like keep an island city defended by a warrior when there're maces (Samurais?) around.

He is supposed to be for the Barb taskforce, but if you send all of the western Longbows, then you could potentially keep him around to defend Crabs.

Crabs would be the first attack vector for any of the western AIs. I do not foresee them even attacking Sugar Daddy, but if they did, it would be after the war had begun and we could have already switched into our Military Civics and whipped a defender in Sugar Daddy before they could attack us, anyway. So, Sugar Daddy does not need the Longbowman, but you can decide between sending him west to the Barb Cities or keeping him around for Crabs.

Other questions I can answer later, have to run...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

- of course i noted the cancel deal/renew deal with Zara, but can i trade pigs to him instead of wheat? We got only one source of both, but wheat is better for health, due to the granary effect.

Yes, please trade him the Pig instead of the Wheat for the very reason that you mentioned--we will get one extra health by keeping the Wheat for ourselves.

I'll play in few hours. If i see nothing interesting from Justy i'll go straight until i receive some demand

Please also pause play for any of the other events that I mentioned:

1. War is declared by anyone on anyone
2. An AI Demands Paper or Philosophy (or an AI Demands any tech that you are tempted to refuse to give to them)
3. Toku asks us to cancel deals with Zara
4. The Apostolic Palace resolution fails (either an AI Defies it or enough AIs vote "no" to it)
5. An AI gets or loses a Fist icon. In particular, if either Toku or Justinian lose their Fist icon, we should strongly consider switching Religion to Buddhism and trying to bribe them into a new war (against Mehmed).

You could also just open an instant messenger client with me, since most of the team is either asleep or too busy to be refreshing the thread.

At a very MINIMUM, if you really do not want to pause play, then I would ask that you state your plan for each of the above scenarios, so that we can comment ahead-of-time on your planned actions.

BTW, that spear now moving to Riverdale is better moved W, awaiting Justy move. Then he will move depending on case a) (E) or b) (W).

We are currently Friendly with Zara, so sure do so.

We'll eventually want him in the east, though, so that we have the flexibility of switching to Buddhism (that would make us stop being Friendly with Zara and thus he would have the excuse to attack us).


Toku and Zara
Also, if Toku does declare war on Zara, we should probably Request (beg for) some Gold from Zara, to keep ourselves from being asked to declare war on Zara by Toku.

At a minimum, it will be safe to beg for 200 Gold. It is your choice if you ask for a higher amount of Gold (if I were Zara, I would give us all of his Gold just to stay alive, but I'm not sure if the AI is programmed to give more money when they are already at war). Just be sure to only beg once, even if you fail the first time, as a second begging action is guaranteed to fail.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Examle of non-Synthetic:

Blocking Chemistry Lightbulbs: Engineering or Gunpowder?: I say trade for Engineering, but DO NOT learn Gunpowder. However, we should only trade for Engineering AFTER we have either traded for Astronomy or have learned Astronomy ourselves, to avoid exceeding WFYABTA limits ruining a potential Astronomy trade
Since we won't be trading for ONE of Engineering or Gunpowder, so that a Chemistry Lightbulb is blocked for our Great Scientists, I would suggest that the tech that we choose to learn would be Engineering.

The extra movement points of units, including Missionaries, will be useful to us. If we learn Gunpowder, more of the AIs will find it easier to get Gunpowder, and we would like to keep Zara and Mehmed from learning Gunpowder for as long as possible, as their Unique Units are Musketmen*.

* corrected, thanks BLubz

I'm still lost.

My message does a few things:
1. It tells us that we have a decision to make and what the choices are (Engineering vs Gunpowder)
2. It gives my opinion on that choice (take Engineering)
3. It clarifies that I do not mean "immediately" (wait until after Astronomy) so that we don't get someone saying "well, you told me to trade for it, so I traded for it"
4. I explained WHY we had a decision to make in trading for only ONE of them (so that people understood why it would be bad to get both in trade)--so that someone does not say "oh, well I was able to get a good deal and traded for BOTH of them at once, aren't you happy with me?"
5. I gave a reason for why I thought that my choice (Engineering) was a good choice
6. I gave a reason for why I thought that the other choice (Gunpowder) was not as good of a choice

I do not really see where I should cut out some of the info. All of that info is really needed to understand the decision-making process. The only way that some of that info can be left out is if everyone on the team will blindly follow what I tell them to do. If you just say "Sir, yes, Sir!" and then do EXACTLY what I say, I won't need to give my rationale behind the decisions, but no one will be learning anything either.

I'm pretty sure that the team's preference has been stated as wanting to learn.

Example of the same concept, quicker to write and to read. IMO, with the same clearness.

Chemistry requires both Engineering and Gunpowder. Engineering is useful for the units movements, Gunpowder for nothing but unlocking Chemistry (Musketmen are the worst units in the game, even in their UU versions). Also, for a beeline to Electricity, Gunpowder is to avoid, because a GS will bulb Chemistry and Biology after SM, instead of the stright path to Electricity (Astro > SM > Physics > Elec)

The statement leaves out some of the above points.
It skips point 1 and goes straight to point 2, saying what the author's opinion is, without making it clear that a choice is possible in case someone comes up with a good reason to go with the other choice.

It does not clarify point 3, so someone might take the trade, which has a CHANCE of "using up" our WFYABTA tech trades. Who knows? Maybe most of the AIs have forgotten about a lot of our trades. But the problem is that we DO NOT KNOW for certain and the only way that we will know is when it is "too late" and they are already saying "WFYABTA."

It touches upon point 4, but it doesn't give the right reason. The reason given is that "Musketmen are bad units." However, the real reason is that we can only take one of these techs in trade. If the UP player happens to LIKE Musketmen, they might think "oh, well I disagree with his reason, I actually like Musketmen. So, therefore, I am perfectly justified in trading for Gunpowder."

This other method of explaining the situation did give a reason for why Engineering is good (point 5) but it did not give a reason for why it might be BAD to learn Gunpowder (point 6). Instead, it just says that "Gunpowder is not really needed, because we don't need Musketmen," but it failed to point out that there is another reason why delaying the learning of Gunpowder can help us out strategically.


Summary
The first statement explains everything that a person might want to know on a subject and gives details of how to approach the decision. It gives reasoning for why a particular choice was suggested, so that even if the reader does not initially agree, there will be some initial points raised that can be debated.

The second statement reads more like an opinion. The trouble with an opinion is that it is more likely to be ignored as advice if a player disagrees with the opinion.


So, I fail to see the advantage of the second approach.



If your request was to say "please don't explain your decisions, I will do exactly what you tell me to do," then fine, I can do so.

But if you want to pick and choose between my suggestions, then it is only fair to hear the reasons that were used to arrive at the selected choices for those decisions. Do you disagree? If so, how?

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, started.
After hit enter, Justy moves the 2 galleys on our crab net.
I think he would probably send a settler party in whales area.

Zara has 350 gold in bank. How much should i beg for?

2 turns to next AP resolution. Toku continues move his fleet E. I noticed he's got OB with Zara (last AP resolution, i suppose). So it's not sure Zara is his target. Must be highly probable.

Game in pause.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

OK, started.
After hit enter, Justy moves the 2 galleys on our crab net.
I think he would probably send a settler party in whales area.

You mean that you do not think that Justinian is going to war? If you see a Settler Party, we can consider settling Whales, but I think that it is a bit too soon to confirm that he is ready to beat us to Whales, right?

Zara has 350 gold in bank. How much should i beg for?

I would wait until Toku declares war. If Toku is not able to declare war now, we will want to save the begging time until the future.

210 Gold is absolutely safe to ask for from Zara, and you can add about 10 Gold for every 3 turns that pass.

2 turns to next AP resolution. Toku continues move his fleet E. I noticed he's got OB with Zara (last AP resolution, i suppose).

Yes, the Apostolic Palace forced the Open Borders between Toku and Zara (a good thing).

So it's not sure Zara is his target. Must be highly probable.

Remember that an AI chooses their war target and then sticks to that war target. If they change to being Friendly with their war target, they will still attack. So, the Open Borders changes nothing... Toku only knew Saladin, Justinian, Zara, and us when he went into "hands full" mode, so Zara HAS to be his target.


We DEFINITELY want to vote to "stop the war against Zara Yaqob," which should hopefully PREVENT Toku from declaring war.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Justy moves the 2 galleys on our crab net.
I think he would probably send a settler party in whales area.

Did Justinian lose the "hands full" fist icon (WHEOOHRN)? If no, then those are boats of war...
It just means that we are not his war target so we can safely execute the Pacifism + Caste System plan.

 

[BLubmuz]

Did Justinian lose the "hands full" fist icon (WHEOOHRN)? If no, then those are boats of war...
It just means that we are not his war target so we can safely execute the Pacifism + Caste System plan.

No, he still got it.
I moved the warriors in Wheaties and Riverdale to act as MP in our biggest cities. They need it.
Irgy whipped the hell out of them.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

No, he still got it.

Okay, well the fact that the Galleys are on top of each other sounds more like a war party than two Settler Parties to me. We'll see soon enough. All we know for sure is that neither Toku nor Justinian chose us as a war target.

That's great, as it leaves us free to go after the Barb Cities unmolested.

I moved the warriors in Wheaties and Riverdale to act as MP in our biggest cities. They need it.

Great! 1 Longbowman + 1 Spearman + Cultural defenses should be enough to save those Cities in case of an attack, buying us enough time to switch to Military Civics. Hopefully, Zara will be smart enough to realise this fact and thus will simply never attack us...

Irgy whipped the hell out of them.

To be fair, I started it and I probably whipped the most. I'm also the one who told Irgy to whip so much...

 

[BLubmuz]

I've lost your answer, Xposted with mine.
So i asked for 200 gold to Zara, and he politely accepted.

It's now turn 234 and IBT Zara asked to join against Toku. I just refused, we can't declare.
Then the AP resolution popped and i choose "stop the war against Zara" and voted yes.
And yes will be, since we alone have a wide majority.
After all the IBT theatre, i finally learnt that Toku declared on Zara and Izzy on Mehmed.
I just checked the previous turn and she just showed "we just don't like you enough".

GPF is 1 turn away from its first GP. >70% favor a GS, so i think it will be a GA

Paused now. If i see something soon i will continue.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So i asked for 200 gold to Zara, and he politely accepted.

No worries. It just means that we will be able to ask again for a little bit more in about 40 turns from now. I'm just happy that he accepted (there was a statistically small chance that he would have refused).

It's now turn 234 and IBT Zara asked to join against Toku. I just refused, we can't declare.

I agree that this was the correct choice. It is unfortunate that we got asked, but at least Toku cannot not ask us.

Then the AP resolution popped and i choose "stop the war against Zara" and voted yes.
And yes will be, since we alone have a wide majority.

Unless someone Defies the Resolution. Either Toku or Mehmed could. Although, being at war with 3 players will probably make Mehmed not Defy the vote. Toku still might Defy it, though.

I just checked the previous turn and she just showed "we just don't like you enough".

Well, we played off of their mutual hatred. Had we not declared war, they probably would have both made Demands from us until they were both Furious with us and then ganged up on us together! So, it is good that we "picked a side" in that conflict.

GPF is 1 turn away from its first GP. >70% favor a GS, so i think it will be a GA

We'll take whatever we can get at this point.

If it IS a Great Artist, we DO have the option of triggering a Golden Age. Since you plan to continue to run a lot of Specialists, it could work.

We will only get 1 Golden Age in this whole game, though, so make sure that if you do use it up, you do your best to stay in our current Civics and continue to run a lot of Specialists.