SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

Well, Zara is scheduled to complete Poly in 1 turn, so next turn we could trade wtg for Poly, then the following turn get IW in trade. The alternative is to gift him wtg immediately so we can getIW next turn and trade Justy Math for poly, since Justy is researching math anyway.

We know of no WEs right now, so there are no diplo effects with the AIs we know. It's possible that the founder of Judaism is WEs with someone, like Izzy perhaps.

 

[babybluepants]

Either of those trades sounds fine actually.
We wouldn't really trade with Izzy anyway.

PS: How do turns spent in Theocracy translate into diplo points?

 

[babybluepants]

One thin which my believe is urgent is spreading our religion to Issy.

I was under the impression the team already agreed to disagree on Isabella / Confu spread a few pages ago.

NE is not that powerful for as and why we will not spend a lot of time in pacifism?

We have innate +100% GP generation, that mean Ne add addition 100% (Only 50% increase).

If we running pacifism Ne add only 33 %, if we running golden age Ne add only 25%.

But right now it is too early to discuss That in my opinion, let see what future hold.

Not true at all. The benefit of both NE and Pac over the long term is huge. I agree with you that we don't really need to discuss these things asap, but I think we should clarify it post-Currency. It specifically affects Two Fish. We're not only talking about whether to tech Aest-Lit, but potentially also whether Two Fish can afford to max out specialists for the Educ push, or needs production for NE pre-Oxford. Most likely, we don't have that production available with our current plans?

 

[LowtherCastle]

What techs could we possibly steal from Zara that:
1) We could afford.
2) Are useful.
3) We couldn't easily trade for.

Calendar is the gem I have my eyes on. Unfortunately, Zara doesn't have any Calendar luxuries, but they are nearby, if that helps. Here's my thinking: AIs are reluctant to trade Calendar. We need it early for our happiness and for MoM. If we can steal it early, perfect. I doubt we'll collect enough EPPs from anyone else starting so late, so we just throw the dice and hope Zara researches it. He's also close to us so it will be easy to plant a spy in his horse city for 5t and replace it if it's caught. We could also give him our religion to make it even cheaper. Plus, we'll know if he's researching it.

MoM is way more important than GL, btw. It's obligatory, in my opinion. Why? An extra 5-10t of GA at the end can give us 2-3 extra GPs plus all the extra research we'll need with those high-cost finishing techs.

At this stage of the game, I could care less about AI graphs. What difference do they make anymore?

 

[Mutineer]

I think we should just trade COl to Justian rigth now, for all his goods and keep math monopoly for future trades.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I think we should just trade COl to Justian rigth now, for all his goods and keep math monopoly for future trades.

You really think so? He's researching math right now anyway, because Toku will give us IW+Htg for Math, but Justy will only give us Htg+Poly. I think he's close to done with Math. No monopoly.

Meanwhile, CoL remains a monopoly tech for alll intenst and purposes, because Toku won't trade it to anyone (Courthouses and Chichen Itza).

 

[babybluepants]

I'm pretty sure they'll all tech Math before they do COL. Also, what are you trading for with Math? Everything we might want to trade for after IW is way more expensive than Math.

Edit: x-post.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Guys, I'm going to play a nother turn or so, to get IW and to see if Sugar has any seafood to the west. Actually, I didn't really mean for us to get into a big discussion quite yet anyway. I just got interrupted before I could finish getting IW. Then we can discuss our exact REX plans for the next 10t or so.

 

[babybluepants]

Yeah, just go ahead.

I'm also wondering whether there may still be a connection from sugar island to Justinian's land if he really came from the north - this could end up costing us another explorer WB again.

 

[shyuhe]

Calendar is the gem I have my eyes on. Unfortunately, Zara doesn't have any Calendar luxuries, but they are nearby, if that helps. Here's my thinking: AIs are reluctant to trade Calendar. We need it early for our happiness and for MoM. If we can steal it early, perfect. I doubt we'll collect enough EPPs from anyone else starting so late, so we just throw the dice and hope Zara researches it. He's also close to us so it will be easy to plant a spy in his horse city for 5t and replace it if it's caught. We could also give him our religion to make it even cheaper. Plus, we'll know if he's researching it.

MoM is way more important than GL, btw. It's obligatory, in my opinion. Why? An extra 5-10t of GA at the end can give us 2-3 extra GPs plus all the extra research we'll need with those high-cost finishing techs.

At this stage of the game, I could care less about AI graphs. What difference do they make anymore?

Stealing calendar would be pretty awesome if we can pull it off. Just not sure whether Zara will be so cooperative.

I'm still not fully convinced that MoM is that much better than the GL, but that's not a discussion we need to flesh out at this stage I think. We can flesh out tech choices after we complete currency.

I'm fine with playing another turn - writing -- poly then alpha -- IW sounds good.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Played another turn and a half. Please refer to the updated turnset report. We have two 0f4h iron tiles. Bah. Still, lots to discuss on REX. Dyes are available if we can beat Izzy to them. We met Hindu Sal to the west and got from him Mono.nucleosis

Wow!

Here is your Session Turn Log from 925 BC to 875 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 123, 925 BC: Tokugawa will trade Alphabet, Hunting, Iron Working
Turn 123, 925 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 123, 925 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Delhi.
Turn 123, 925 BC: Two Fish will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 123, 925 BC: Tokugawa will trade Hunting, Iron Working
Turn 123, 925 BC: Isabella will trade Hunting
Turn 123, 925 BC: Justinian I will trade Hunting, Iron Working, Polytheism
Turn 123, 925 BC: Zara Yaqob will trade Hunting, Iron Working
Turn 123, 925 BC: Two Fish will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

Turn 124, 900 BC: Delhi can hurry Settler for 2? with 49? overflow and +1? for 21 turns.
Turn 124, 900 BC: Two Fish has grown to size 3.
Turn 124, 900 BC: Zara Yaqob will trade Polytheism
Turn 124, 900 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!
Turn 124, 900 BC: Confucianism has spread in Oasis.
Turn 124, 900 BC: Confucianism has spread in Rice.

Turn 125, 875 BC: Delhi can hurry Settler for 1? with 14? overflow and +1? for 20 turns.
Turn 125, 875 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 125, 875 BC: You have discovered a source of Iron near Delhi!
Turn 125, 875 BC: You have discovered a source of Iron near Oasis!
Turn 125, 875 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Delhi.
Turn 125, 875 BC: Two Fish will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 125, 875 BC: You have discovered Monotheism!

 

[Silu]

PS: How do turns spent in Theocracy translate into diplo points?

Each turn, a counter goes up by 1 for ordered pairs of Civs {C1, C2} that are both in the favorite civic of C1. Otherwise, that counter goes down by 1, unless it's already at zero. Note that if we are in someone's favcivic but they are not, the counter still goes down.

The diplo bonus of C1 towards C2 is this counter divided by 10, plus one, with a leader-specific cap:

ISABELLA: 4
ZY: 5
JUSTINIAN: 5
SALADIN: 2 (?!)
TOKUGAWA: 6

 

[mdy]

Unless there is something exceptional near the dyes site a city there would be a burden for a long time. As Izzy is a religious nut and we will become her worst enemy as soon as we adopt confunicism maybe it would be easier to let Izzy settle the site for us and take it when she inevitably declares war on us?

 

[babybluepants]

Each turn, a counter goes up by 1 for ordered pairs of Civs {C1, C2} that are both in the favorite civic of C1. Otherwise, that counter goes down by 1, unless it's already at zero. Note that if we are in someone's favcivic but they are not, the counter still goes down.

The diplo bonus of C1 towards C2 is this counter divided by 10, plus one, with a leader-specific cap:

ISABELLA: 4
ZY: 5
JUSTINIAN: 5
SALADIN: 2 (?!)
TOKUGAWA: 6

Ok. So, it's +1 immediately, and +1 for each 10t after, up to the cap? I guess, the problem is that they might not stay in Theo for too long anyway, esp. when we're getting close to win date.

 

[Silu]

Yeah, I guess that's a bit more simpler way to say it!

To my experience most Theo lovers stay in Theo pretty much forever. There are exceptions too of course.

 

[shyuhe]

Excuse me if I state anything obvious but it's my first time opening the save in three weeks

I've never seen theo lovers leave theo voluntarily. Come to think of it, Zara is probably going for theology through monotheism since he doesn't have a religion yet. A good espionage target? I say we shift our EP to Zara 100% - we don't have much use for Justinian's graph any more.

Also, I say screw the horses - we can trade for them from Zara if we need to and it's an otherwise marginal city site. I'd much rather go settle the sugar/fish to the north or even the dye on Izzy's island. Or are we planning on declaring on Izzy anyways? In that case, it doesn't matter what she does with those dyes.

As for the AI, the monotheism founder is obviously to the west so I'd send a scouting WB that way. Any reason why we don't have OB with Saladin right now? His trade routes have to be worth more than the ones we have with Zara (and man do I kind of wish we had the GLH ). As for scouting direction, I'd head NW around his island - we're likely to run into ice on the southern end.

As for religion and OR, I'm not sure what to do. It gives two-fish an extra hpt and Delhi will benefit a lot once it switches to infra, but it'll make our diplo very hard in the interim. Then again, as long as our existing trade routes don't get canceled, I think we'll be fine.

 

[Mutineer]

send BW north first, so we can see is there any resources Saladin did not settle yet.

 

[babybluepants]

shyuhe, we just met Saladin this turn. Yeah, we should sign OB now. I'm shocked he's so close. How did he not find us by now?

Dyes:
Ok, so Isabella is an obvious intended target for one of the two DOWs then. She would clearly settle the ivory, if we didn't beat her to it, giving her two of the four required resources. Options:
1) Settle the dye before she does.
2) Trade for dye. (way too unreliable?)
3) Kill her (figuratively speaking).

I'd speculate that the other intended DOW target is to the west of us (perhaps Toku, given his size?) This would imply mobilizing for two separate invasions halfway around the map - the logistics involved might be quite tricky, especially as we presumably wanna focus on tech mid-game. It's maybe notable here that our intended Radio bulb path of Astro-(Physics)-Elec requires holding off on Gunpowder.

One thing to consider: we are most likely to be Izzy's WE and war target. If we settle a crap dye city on her land mass, it might actually just be a PITA to defend later.

Not sure what I'd do...

I guess we can leave EP on Zara. I'm highly doubtful he'll tech Calendar in time for us to get MoM, though. He's the slowest AI, doesn't have any Cale resources and, like shyuhe pointed out, could be beelining Theo.

 

[Mutineer]

shyuhe, we just met Saladin this turn. Yeah, we should sign OB now. I'm shocked he's so close. How did he not find us by now?

He does not has fishing.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Dyes:
Ok, so Isabella is an obvious intended target for one of the two DOWs then. She would clearly settle the ivory, if we didn't beat her to it, giving her two of the four required resources. Options:
1) Settle the dye before she does.
2) Trade for dye. (way too unreliable?)
3) Kill her (figuratively speaking).

I would think we should try to settle the dye before she does.

My thinking is as follows: We don't know where the silk is, but we are likely to need to use one of our DOWs to get it (since as you say trading for it would be unreliable). If we let Izzy settle the dye then we are resigning ourselves to DOW on her if we can't get her to DOW on us. This course of action will most likely tie our hands for both DOWs. It would be nice to have a spare DOW to boost our diplo chances, I think.

(is there some kind of record for most SGOTM posts in one day? I think we've hit it!)

PS - Great set so far LC! Getting OB with Toku and Izzy is great & the tech trading is terrific. I'm in awe.