SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

Could you post a test save, LC? Hard to picture some things from plan.
I was thinking that 2Fish could do its own 2nd WB, for one thing.
When is Currency complete? Are we doing Hunting?

Pyramids+Hanging Gardens+Forge+Oxford should be enough to get us a late game GE at higher odds according the analysis I did a couple of hundred posts back. We would probably want to build a forge as soon as we could in order to maximise the GE odds though.

Maybe I missed an actual analysis to that effect? I thought your post back then suggested a few options, including running scientists and/or building GLib to boost Delhi's gpp production in the way I'm proposing. A late game 100% GE will be tough to get, if we're going with anything like 10+ (?) useful GP's + 4 spares, on a sub-t300 timeline. Especially as our actual GS need in front-heavy for the Sci Meth era bulbing. It would also only be a 90% shot, due to Oxford. Maybe there's a sweet spot mid-game, around 1500gpp GP, but I wouldn't know how to accurately estimate that from where we are now.

This is an optimistic estimate (continuous Eng running, continuous Pacifism):
t125 --- 20 gpp (GE)
t160 --- 90 gpp (GE); HG built, start Pacifism (200 BC)
t170 --- 210 gpp (GE); forge built (50 BC)
t185 --- 525 gpp (GE); Oxford built (175 AD)
t226 --- 1509 gpp (5% GS) - 9th GP (790 AD)
t239 --- 1821 gpp (9% GS) - 10th GP (940 AD)
t251 --- 2109 gpp (9% GS) - 11th GP (1060 AD)
t264 --- 2421 gpp (10% GS) - 12th GP (1190 AD)
t276 --- 2709 gpp (10% GS) - 13th GP (1280 AD)

Comparatively, we could pop a 52% GE t179 (85 AD), if we ran one scientist and a bit, and then do a 75% shot again at t276 (1280 AD) - or lower odds faster, ofc.

Not sure what's better - I just didn't realize we settled on one option yet...

Edit:
The one advantage of the 90% late game is that it's more flexible, ofc. By the time we get to Sci Meth, we could probably make a good estimate of the relative values of GE vs. a couple extra bulbs.

The advantage of the other option is we get to run some Rep scientists in the Oxford city.

I'm 50:50 on this, so maybe late game it is...

 

[babybluepants]

I don't get the rounding down argument... Edit: nevermind, I get it now. These things just hurt my little head.

 

[mystyfly]

LC, I like your turnset plan except one thing:

Ivory settled: granary

I already noticed a few times how you (all) seem to prioritize granaries more than me. I wouldn't start on the granary, I'd do a WB first. Grow to pop2 and whip it would be the usual thing though we'll be in caste by the time we can whip it; I'd probably partbuild it till pop2 then build the worker while working fish/artist or fish/ivory. That worker helps the city get any production going, and afterwards, we can finish the (second) WB (for clams), we should reach pop4 quite soon and then whip the granary.
That's probably what I would do, is this less efficient? The faster the worker is done, the quicker we get production going (we want moai there ASAP to build the uni quickly) and the sooner we can ship the worker back to our mainland (or another island like sugar).

I see you are sparing delhi and bombay and let them grow, I like that. The forest chop in bombay goes into the granary, right?

Good luck with your (remaining) turns

 

[LowtherCastle]

@mysty: Ivory is getting at least 1 wb from Oasis and an existing wkr from Delhi. Anything else delays its development drastically. I did some comparisons here and here.

 

[mystyfly]

I know it's getting a WB but I forgot about it getting a worker. Now I remember

IMO you're free to take off

 

[LowtherCastle]

Btw, on the granaries, think of them as turning a 6f pig into a 10f pig. That's what they do, roughly speaking. Do you want your 10f pig sooner or later?

That also explains why you want the wb before the granary. It turns a 2f fish into a 2f fish, but a 5f fish into an 8f fish.

 

[mdy]

Ivory is getting at least 1 wb from Oasis and an existing wkr from Delhi. Anything else delays its development drastically.

This is true, but we can't send a worker to the mainland there without delaying the growth of at least 1 of our mainland cities (most likely Bombay). As the ivory can't possibly build the Maori before (or soon after) we get education, perhaps it would be more efficient to focus on our core cities?

 

[LowtherCastle]

This is true, but we can't send a worker to the mainland there without delaying the growth of at least 1 of our mainland cities (most likely Bombay). As the ivory can't possibly build the Maori before (or soon after) we get education, perhaps it would be more efficient to focus on our core cities?

Ivory is a core city to me. If we want to postpone Moai, I'm pretty sure we could pop the Educ GS there sooner than in Marble, for example.

Anyway, hopefully that worker will slow down much of anything. I'm working out how we're going to get all seven of our nets right now. It's looking pretty good.

----------------

Guys, I ran into a freaky occurence in my testing just now and I need to know the answer. On T134, after Bombay's culture expanded, the tile at Marble 2S-SE appeared within in our culture, even though it shouldn't have, by my understanding. Hovering over the tile with the mouse shows 0% Indian culture. But...chopping the forest gives Marble 44h!!!

This could be useful for us if we don't need to run an artist to expand Marble's borders to get that forest chop into the granary.

Is this normal when a tile gets surrounded by our culture, or is this some bug or artifact of worldbuilder?

 

[Silu]

Tiles which have someone's culture in all cardinal (up left right down) directions are given to that player next turn even with no culture, provided no one else has culture on the tile either.

Sorry for low participation, I feel exhausted just trying to read through all this...

 

[mdy]

In my opinion our core cities (for now) are the ones we will build universities in for Oxford. The reality is we can't get Maori for 15+ turns after we get education according to the test I ran. If we put some early workboats into the clams we can easily get the uni built there quickly, this is an easier place to pop a GS due to the excess food but we shouldn't need to. Two fish can easily pop 2 GS before 200B.C. even without a second workboat (happy cap means we can't do much with the excess food). As education has a higher priority than philosophy we could actually only use 1 GS on the way to education if we were willing to to delay pacifism for a while.

 

[LowtherCastle]

mdy, what baseline Education date are you using?

Are you poprushing a lib in Two Fish? If so, when?

Edit: And where did Two Fish's second wb come from?

Edit2: Could you upload a repesentative save, please? (after you get Educ, or whatever)

 

[mystyfly]

I think cultural influence has no effect on the # of hammers gained by chopping. If the tile belongs to a foreign civ it's of course impossible to chop it. This imo is working "as intended" by firaxis.

Didn't know about what silu said...

To me ivory is a core city as well. Moai before uni is likely as I doubt all other 5 cities will finish their unis before ivory. With some use of the we should get moai done in a reasonable amount of time (like when whipping WBs or so into moai but not moai itself as it gets the 50% penalty).

 

[mdy]

mdy, what baseline Education date are you using?

Are you poprushing a lib in Two Fish? If so, when?

Edit: And where did Two Fish's second wb come from?

Edit2: Could you upload a repesentative save, please? (after you get Educ, or whatever)

I have attatched a save with education at 110 B.C. Getting it before 200 B.C. is possible, but then we probably would not be in a position to build 6 universities quickly after that date.

There was no second workboat for the fish as the happiness cap means that it does not need to work it, the chop in rice city was put into a granary instead.

Two fish does not need to whip a library as it can build it in time without the whip.

I'm sure we can do better than this with improved micromanagement. (It was a little sloppy at the end)

One thing to note: part way through building the granary in Oasis I realised that it would actually be more efficient to build the library first, so we would not have the 56 hammers that are currently invested in it.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Thanks, mdy. Did you research or trade for MC?

 

[mdy]

I researched it. The direct beeline currency-paper-education would have got there before we would have been in a position to get 6 unis very quickly.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I ran this one out to 110BC. Also anything but optimized, but I wanted a quick comparison. I'm 3t behind you on educ. I beelined HG in Delhi, so there are more GE gpps in mine (plus an accidental turn of GS). You emphasized gpps in Two Fish way more than I did. I emphasized cottages more in Delhi and production less. We did Oasis completely differently. I have an lh in Marble and my Ivory is much more developed. I chopped more than you did.

Makes for interesting comparison. It would be good to combine the best of both somehow.

In any case, I guess it's better to not build any more settlers in Delhi. Btw, I don't see any reason to grow Bombay right now. Better to chop another worker and the the sugar settler there. Then time the granary to be done around when HG completes (much earlier than you did it). That gives Bombay pop3 suddenly and it can borrow the corn from Delhi to fill its granary quickly. Delhi can work cottages at that time.

You built your seventh worker in Ivory, or what?

 

[shyuhe]

LC - your plan is fine with me. Also, what turn do we complete currency?

I also looked at the two saves. The only downside of mdy's save is that the 6 cities aren't ready to immediately whip the universities. So I think it's better if we delay education slightly to make sure we have 6 cities with libraries already completed when we finish education. Not much point getting education early if we can't start construction of Oxford.

 

[mdy]

In my save the worker was built in the ivory with the assistance of a workboat from Oasis.

I did't chop as much as LC, but I did do a lot of prechops to allow the university/Oxford to be built quicker in the capital.

I agree with chopping the sugar worker there.

I also looked at the two saves. The only downside of mdy's save is that the 6 cities aren't ready to immediately whip the universities.

In both saves it looks like we will need to use the whip to build the final libraries, given that it will cost us a lot of our science we should probably delay the revolt till we have education. As we can whip the universities in all cities except the capital within 3 turns of education the limiting factor in starting Oxford will probably be the time taken to build the university in Delhi, so delaying education at this point can only delay Oxford.


Unfortunately I am going to be away for a while, I' m not certain when I will be back (most likely the 7th of June, but possibly up to a week longer.) I might be able to read the forums occasionally in that time, but I won't have access to Civ, so I will have to leave you to find the best way through this MM mess without me.

 

[babybluepants]

@LC,
Plan's good. The only thing I'm missing is an FP farm in Bombay. It seems we're sacrificing that for extra cottages in Delhi, but I guess it's ok.
Are you teching Hunting?
I maybe kinda sorta agree with mdy about no second WB in Two Fish, at least not immediately. With the happy cap what it is, it can max out with just pig/fish/cow for a little while, and that lets Rice and Marble get rolling on essential infrastructure a touch sooner. Sounds ok, I just haven't been testing it like that.

I'd much, much rather use the first GS on Philosophy asap, btw. It's safer, no? Also, a quick switch to Pac can speed up the second, presumably (we'll need to be in Caste for a bit anyway, before a Slavery/OR switch). I think we need to plan on Philosophy first and then optimize completing Education with city development. Delhi can use other builds, but I'm also in favour of beelining HG. In testing, the pop point seems to come in at a pretty good time for Bombay, Marble and Rice in particular.

I'm wondering how long we can reasonably delay Sugar? With CB on Zara...

PS: are we at all worried about barb galleys by the late BC's?

 

[mystyfly]

I'm also for early philosophy. Apart from the obvious early pacifism we'll also delay AI liberalism teching. By meeting most (or maybe all soon) AIs we can see when some AI is close to lib and we can delay it as long as possible taking a big tech. If some AI beelines philo (say either just or zara, who missed out on christianity) they might start on lib much sooner. AI techpace is very very low though, not sure how much of an effect this will actually have.

I'm against selfresearching hunting, we can pick that up anytime. WFYABTA is no big issue on emp due to higher limits and fewer opportunities. Let's grab all the freebies we can, as long as we can.