SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Duckweed · Jun 13, 2010

dingding said:
Yes, but it will loose a few turns of growth of a cottage as well.

Since it will grow back faster, so it will work on those cottages faster. Hence no loss on those cottages if you look at the situation 10~20 turns later. It's the same thing as whipping forge in Delhi.

dingding said:
Apparently if we defeat Zara+Izzy the game is won already (if Meh is UN rival, we have Zara+Izzy+Justine+(Saladin), if Justine is the rival, we have Zara+Izzy+Meh+(Saladin)). In fact you can change Izzy for any other AI to get the same result. So why get involved in a double DoW at a time while we can beat them one by one?

Duckweed said:
Dow Zara = Dow Zara + Izzy Dow us. Only their cities can be a boost to our empire.

kossin gave a more detailed analysis.

@new plan
I'm against lib in Vij since the earlier Colossus give more than a lib, hence definitely Colossus and also we should skip lib and univ in Vij for faster military units buildup.

You have not given a convincing reason why you want to whip a missionary in Delhi and send a confu missionary to Zara is completely a waste.

kossin · Jun 13, 2010

I'm with Duckweed on a few issues here:

-no missionary from Delhi... this means 1 more turn played
-3-pop whip from Varanasi for forge. Preferably at a time where it doesn't lose too many floodplains cottages (T159 loses 1 turn of floodplain cottage only... have Vijay borrow it for that turn)

Assuming no GS, Education should finish ~1AD. (if GS we need to hurry even more).
-I've tried it out and library+Uni in Vijay makes sense but it's not necessary. Colossus>HE with some timed whips imo.
>Delhi can whip its University easily
>Bombay is behind on infra and would need more improvements but it's not a bad bet since it has 2 spare forests.
>Patali can whip
>Varanasi will also be ready about same time
>Calcutta? It will squeeze its Forge out ~50BC so I propose we go LH>Library>University directly
>Bangalore? Lighthouse ~50BC so can start Library>University>Forge (this still slows us down)

The problem is the next city in line has either -> 0 production [Agra] or settled too late missing its base infra.

However, we could stop working the golds in Agra to whip Library+Uni there. Not sure what would be the actual completion date but this is the only way I can see to allow Vijay to skip Library+Uni and still have an early Oxford. I see Duckweed proposes T157 whip in Agra so maybe this is what he suggests.

Finally, Delhi still needs to go HG>MoM before Oxford (although this is quite a bit of time so we may want to squeeze in OU before finishing MoM if it comes to that). This can and should be sped up via chops. Having more pop will also make this faster by working mines (another reason not to whip it more than needed).

~~~

I suggest we try some longer sets before making up our mind on this one. Otherwise we'll end up with tunnel vision syndrome.

Bugg123 · Jun 14, 2010

Got up early to run a test (will get one more in later).

I'm in on the Col->HE plan in Vijay.

If no GS, edu finishes ~1AD (10AD maybe). By that time Bombay, Pati, Calcutta, Var and Delhi (obv) will be able to complete Uni next turn. Unfortunately I ran 1 gold-mine in Agra and was ~8turns off there to get the pop. I think it'll be ok if we whip LH early and work foods (will test in a bit).

I think we delay HG untill Madurai is settled. Delhi will also be able to complete MoM before Uni-OU (I think).

Pati whips settler at size 6 -> Madurai.

I really don't think missionaries are needed in Delhi, as they serve no useful purpose (I don't think we worry about Zara regardless of DOW).

If we pop a GS first in Delhi, I'm not sure how much OU time we really save (Depends on Agra, the others are ok for earlier Uni (will WB in a GS if I don't get one)).

What I'm not sure about is the military buildup post-Uni. I can't really get the required army assembled by 300AD, as proposed by duckweed, but will give that one more shot as well.

Aggree with kossin that we should at least play a bit longer tests to see where we're at for an eventual army (which also means we need to aggree on DOW Zara or not before playing this turnset).

@dingding:
I like most micro in the proposed plan (except the missionaries). Would probably go with T159 whip of forge in Varan (like kossin suggests), and would propose to look into T158 whip of LH in Agra (to eventually put Uni there).

Bugg123 · Jun 14, 2010

on OU:

If Vijay does not build Lib+Uni (which I think makes sense that it doesn't), then Bangalore/Agra is probably about equal getting to Uni (in my tests, about 130AD, but hopefully someone can do better).

So, since I can't do better anywhere else, putting Lib+Uni in Agra will help out the culturefight over there = I like this to be the 6th site.

Overall, I guess having Colossus+HE+started militray buildup in Vijay beats ~9 turns head start on OU? (Allows us to finish HG+MoM before starting OU as well)

dingding · Jun 14, 2010

kossin said:
I suggest we try some longer sets before making up our mind on this one. Otherwise we'll end up with tunnel vision syndrome.

Agree to this.

About the war plan, I would like to have as much details as possible. Until now, only Duckweed gave details about units spamming (15-20 Macemen, 5 Cata, 6-7 Galley, 1 Trieme) and kossin talked about the attack plan (Wheat city + Capital from Zara, Ivory city + Capital + Dye city from Izzy). Why don't we talk about the details:

1) Which to tech next?
My answer: Edu => Machinary => (Construction) (Construction could be got fromm trading)

2) When to DoW?
My answer: After Edu, just build Univ in Delhi. Other cities starts Barracks. After Machinery, starts spamming Macemen. After Construction, starts Cata. DoW Zara when we have 8-10 Macemen + 4-5 Cata. At the meantime of the war, start spamming Navies. Then wait for Izzy to DoW us.

3) How to proceed?
My answer (in response to Duck's question about missionaries): spread Confu to Aksum and the Wheat city, convert him into Confu. Then DoW him and capture these two cities. Then Zara will go back to Budha because he's got no Confu city, and he can bribe Izzy into the war. Then defeat her.

I try to avoid a war against two rivals at a time for several reasons:

1) Building Macemen+Cata+Navies at the same time is a great input of hammers and time. We don't need that many units (15-20 Macemen) to defeat Zara and either the navies. And by the time we finish (15-20 Macemen+5 Cata+Navies), Izzy+Zara could have been much stronger which increases the difficulty of the war.

2) If we are at war with Zara+Izzy at the same time, Izzy will go on spamming units when we are attacking Zara. That also give extra difficulty to the war.

And still, we'll have the possibility to get DoWed by Izzy to save a DoW as well if the war proceeds as I suggest.

Then speaking of wonders:

1) Colossus is about 11-12C of contribution. If it's to be built, why not build it in Pata and give up Pantheon there? Pata has a good production by whipping overflow and is able to finish it quickly. Thus we can free Vijay to build HE+Barrack+units earlier.

2) Pantheon, to be honest, it is not worth the cost. Pata is now the second best production-city we have. It's too good to put hammers on Settler/Worker/Missionary etc. (We need another 5 Confu missionaries as well even Zara is not to be converted).

3) MoM. I don't know how you guys feel but it occurs to me that you are giving up Gunpowder/RP/Rifle (so we've been only talking about Macemen war) and the whole tech line of Guild/Bank. We don't even think about what kind of Babarians there are guarding the Fur.

Personally I hesitate a lot about MoM. If the barbarians guarding the Fur are inferior to Rifles, we don't need Rifle ourselves so we can beeline to death Mass Media (Astro=>SM=>Physics=>Eletricity=>Radio=>MM) and in this case MoM has not much time to perform; otherwise if Rifle is needed, we'll add a lot more techs to our research list then MoM is worth the cost.

Anyway we're not delaying the exploring Chariot+Galley on that darn island. We'll see the result soon.

kossin · Jun 14, 2010

Duckweed's numbers seem good which is why I didn't say anything.
3~4 spies to revolt at least 1 city of Zara (but the esp cost will require some turns of EP slider)
and then assault on Izzy (she has Stone so we can expect walls but nothing more really).
With this in mind, I would only spread Confu at the last moment [the DoW turn], hoping for
1) 15% EP discount
2) less chance of Zara going Confu

Your tech proposition sounds right although we may have need to swap in Music should the AI go for it.
Another option however would be to get up to Nationalism to help by drafting... we have the happy surplus so we'd only have to whip some boats and catapults. I mean... if we plan on war before Oxford U. then Nationalism is the same price (but we add Philo I know) and the rewards will be pretty similar in the end.

We don't need Rifles to take the fur if it's rifle-protected... just a bunch of siege units (Trebuchets do ok after 5~6 suicides).

Parthenon <-> Colossus : upon further reflection, this is a pretty good suggestion. Especially if we still keep MoM as the extra golden age turns will make a good difference. It results in earlier Colossus and the loss of 1GP possibly (maybe or maybe not the difference between our 4th GA... there's no guarantee we'll get sufficient GPP)

This will free up Vijay to start on the fleet right away.

~~~

Anyway I've got to agree with dingding:
-start planning war
-start planning research

We can't do both at the same time.
Limiting factor for win: the time it takes to complete UN

Will earlier war make up for the lost beakers? I like to think yes but then we need a very swift war as every turn lost of Oxford = 100+ beakers
The 5 gained cities will make up for 100 easily enough

EDIT: looking at the barb island, it becomes apparent there are 2 cities there. I am now 100% convinced the fur is there:
-the second city is hidden behind the first city and is coastal
-the island is half hidden behind uncrossable ice (I very much doubt the mapmaker left an entrance south behind the ice)
-the first city is flanked by mountains, meaning it needs to be captured to move beyond

My guess: the defenders in the second city are much tougher than the first city. As a result, I now believe *we should send a spy* and *not the Chariot*.

We will also need a (3rd, settled)coastal city on that island to bring in the required resources via trade route.

Duckweed · Jun 14, 2010

dingding said:
3) How to proceed?
My answer (in response to Duck's question about missionaries): spread Confu to Aksum and the Wheat city, convert him into Confu. Then DoW him and capture these two cities. Then Zara will go back to Budha because he's got no Confu city, and he can bribe Izzy into the war. Then defeat her.

Your only reason is that Izzy will build units earlier. That's a very minor factor. The counter arguments are simple.
1. we can capture 2 Zara's cities (@kossin I think the Cow&horse city is better) in at most 3 turns.
2. Emperor AI units are never to be an issue when we have a SOD of 20 units.
3. I mentioned about the drawback of whipping for nonsense in Delhi, that is very clear and easy argument. I do not understand why you still insist on whipping it in Delhi. The only meaningful whipping in Delhi is University next.

I have thought about your suggestion about putting Colossus in Pat and starting HE in Vij immediately and I agree that is a good suggestion.

kossin · Jun 14, 2010

Here's another take then: build a settler for Zara. Settle the tundra east-most tip and take his 3 current cities.

dingding · Jun 14, 2010

Plan revised:
1) Vijay get on Barrack+HE immediately
2) Pata takes Colossus
3) Delhi no whiping nor missionary, but gives Bombay a Corn; NE still in t161, GP still in t163
4) Varan still 2pop whipping (need to find more time to test which one is better, I think 2-pop Duck thinks 3-pop. But frankly the difference doesn't really matter)

Spoiler :

kossin · Jun 14, 2010

Why the Hindu missionary in Agra?

As the LH is done, work the coast with second pop to grow. Once Colossus is completed, 2 coast tiles will almost better output that just 1 gold tile (food>hammers commerce similar). Growing to size 5+ won't take too long at +6 surplus.
I'd use this city as one of the 6 universities seeing as its other contribution could be galleys... slowly.

Varanasi: 3-pop whip = +11 hammers
2-pop whip = + commerce (hard to quantify but it might be quite a bit).

Depending on the 6th University and war first vs OU first 2-pop whip might be better for research as we'd have plenty of time to finish it where 11 hammers don't matter that much.

Duckweed · Jun 14, 2010

@kossin

If we want war preparation prior to OU, then either the 3 clam city or the sugar city can produce Universities in time. Our major cities can take the benefit from Hindu if we need to adopt it in some point such as trading a unique tech from Saladin. Hence I think build a Hindu from Agra is good.

Var -- 3 pop whip would be better, in fact there will be beaker gain if lib can be whipped 1 turn earlier. The most important thing is that we should let the FW chop the forest in Pat instead. I believe that we can speedup Colossus by 1 more forest chop.

Could you check whether Saladin Marble is still available. If so, we can gift Aes and Marble to Izzy and trade the marble from Saladin instead. Izzy should be able to build Part for us.

I am also in doubt whether it is a good idea to lend the Corn to Bombay, since citizen in Delhi is more valuable than in Bombay.

dingding · Jun 14, 2010

kossin said:
Why the Hindu missionary in Agra?

As the LH is done, work the coast with second pop to grow. Once Colossus is completed, 2 coast tiles will almost better output that just 1 gold tile (food>hammers commerce similar). Growing to size 5+ won't take too long at +6 surplus.
I'd use this city as one of the 6 universities seeing as its other contribution could be galleys... slowly.

At 2 pops, after the whipping:
Work on 2H7C, in 4 turns grows to size 3.
Work on 2F2C, in 3 turns grows to size 3.

To compare, it's simply +6F+8C and +6H+21C. I feel the latter is better considering the next unit is Missionary. Edit: I failed to try an immediate whipping for Hindu Missionary once it's at size 3. Then I'll free all the pops on the sea. I'll probably propose that. What do you guys say?

To start a hindu missionary and spread Hindu to Delhi or/and Pata. I suppose there will be a time running Hindu as SR and Pacifism. Otherwise I'll build CH or Library here instead. But I don't count on it as one of the 6 cities with Univer.

@ Duck:

Spoiler :

@ all:

Need your feedback ASAP.

dingding · Jun 14, 2010

I occurs to me that Privateers are the most promising units for our victory. We can to some extent manipulate to "select" our UN rivals from Justine and Meh by harassing the other with Privateers. Also those AI who won't vote us will suffer as well.

I hope the barbarians on the islands are Rifles then we'll have a great reason to climb Gunpowder=>Chemistry=>Military Science.

On the other hand, if we can't pop another GE, Chemistry+Guild will probably be needed to boost the production in Delhi for the UN.

kossin · Jun 14, 2010

I still prefer 3-pop whip of Forge and would rather find an alternative for Bombay to grow.

We'll get our FW back on the continent when the roads are done west so it'll be a bit better.

dingding · Jun 14, 2010

Plan updated again (I wish it's the last time. I expect feedback from Bugg/BIC quickly) :
1) New FW's move, chop a tree in Pata earlier so accelerate Colossus by 2 turns.
2) Because of the change of worker moves, we can only make 3-pop whipping in Varan (no discussion any more. I don't even bother running tests.)
3) Accelerate the Hindu Missionary from Agra to free the galley earlier.

Spoiler :

About Delhi+Bombay:

I ran some tests to see what we can do with the extra pop in Bombay. I got some interesting results: Bombay is a nice place for MoM if we accelerate pop growth and forge whipping there. Hence we can possibly free Delhi earlier to start Univer+Market+Units. So I keep my plan about Bombay borrowing Delhi's corn.

Even Vijay take the horse, Bombay can finish the MoM within some 20-25 turns after the forge. That's quite enough to grab it because the only possible rival is Saladin (who has Marble; the other AI who's got Marble is Toku, he's trapped at war) and he has no intention on it until now. He will probably go for Feudalism or Theology next which will only decrease the competition.

About Pantheon:

We still have chance to finish it at Pata by whipping overflow (2 settlers + several more missionaries). It'll take some time but I think the competition on it is little as well as MoM. So maybe it's worth a try in particular given that I can't see Pacifism in the horizon.

kossin · Jun 14, 2010

Thanks dingding for running a longer test, it seems to have proven worthwhile.

You've got my green light.

Bugg123 · Jun 14, 2010

about military:
Didn't mention # because duckweed's proposal looked good.

@dingding:
I'm ok with this plan.

Duckweed · Jun 14, 2010

OK with the plan.

I have little interest in Part with that many turns of delay.

Note, beware of the slider so that the beaker invested to Edu will not go over if we get a GS.

Edit: Shall we give Aes and gold to Zara and hope that he will build SW for us.

kossin · Jun 14, 2010

^^Yea, leave 2400+ beakers in Edu just in case,

BornInCantaloup · Jun 14, 2010

I don't mind Pataliputra building the Colossus... I understand this means faster units from Vijay.
However, what about the Parthenon ? Is there any interest building it at all if we don't go for it right now ? Maybe we should just get failure gold from it (--> sell Aesthetics when opportunity arises). It seemed from previous numbers that the Parthenon was not clearly beneficial to us.

@ What to tech after Education ?
Machinery : I would hope the AIs will tech it, not us. Same thing about Construction : do we really want to tech it ourselves ?
If we want a military tech, I'd go for Gunpowder. Musketmen aren't super great, but Macemen aren't super great either.
For an economic tech, I'd go for Compass. Harbours would be of great benefit. And it's on the Astronomy line. Maybe this should come right after the military tech (Music or Philosophy would be the alternatives, I guess).

Long term : we can hope to get to Scientific Method via Astronomy.
Then we will have to tech Printing Press. Only at that point do we need AIs to have Machinery... I guess that's reasonable.
--> Re military tech : If we get Machinery now, that's it. If we get Gunpowder, we're 1 tech closer to Chemistry & the nice boats (we can let the AIs research Engineering).
From an economic standpoint, I'd only tech Machinery if I wanted Banking, which is a great tech. But it doesn't look like we will tech Banking ourselves... So... Of it is feasable to skip Machinery, I'd do it.
--> Consider tech feeding the AIs. At least with Metal Casting. Maybe Currency.

Otoh : Musketmen may be slightly less effective than Macemen (+ they're more expensive). If you don't want them, I won't complain.

@ Military plan :
Taking cities that are economically relevant to us makes sense (Duckweed's plan).
In that logic, converting Zara to Confu may be counterproductive. How sure are we right now that he will bribe Izzie into the war ? How sure would it be if we converted him to Confu ? I'd expect lower numbers...

@ Big Picture :
Sorry I'm not too present right now. I try to keep up with the discussion but I have a hard time posting multiple times a day.

@ The plan :
Go ahead

SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

Deity

Deity

Prince

Prince

Prince

Deity

Deity

Deity

Prince

Deity

Deity

Prince

Prince

Deity

Prince

Deity

Prince

Deity

Deity

Agent of Chaos

Similar threads