SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks

[kossin]

Muskets vs Maces

Simply put... Maces get CR which makes a net difference.
Moreover, we need Machinery at some point to go further in tech, while Gp isn't necessary (it might but we'll see later).

Waiting for the AIs to tech Machinery will slow down our overall research (at least if we want to have superior units to fight).

 

[dingding]

I have little interest in Part with that many turns of delay.

My tests finally justified Pantheon:
1) Pata has no better building than Pantheon when the pop is growing. (the weakest link of building OU is not Pata, but other cities. So don't need to rush Libra+Univer here)
2) Without Pacifism, +50% GPP from Pantheon will accelerate every GP in Delhi a great deal so the gain would be not bad.
3) With Colossus, Astro will probably be postponed so as Scientific Method, which leaves Pantheon a relatively long time to perform.

Edit: Shall we give Aes and gold to Zara and hope that he will build SW for us.

I thought of that. Given that Zara needs another 19 turns on Feudalism he won't be a possible rival for Music. So Aes can be gifted.

I'll try to find circumstance to make it (as least the gold should be traded for 1 or 2 gold).

@ All:

Will submit the save in several hours.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Good luck, DingDing !


Fair enough for Machinery
I expected it to be preferred over Gunpowder. Even though :
Muskets wage war "faster" than Maces, in the sense that we don't need to bombard cities as much as with Maces or just need less siege units.
Note that if we don't bombard city defenses to 0%, then C1 Muskets -9.9 Str- can be better than CR1 Maces -10.0 Str.

I think that the determining points truly are :
- Machinery cost vs Gunpowder cost ; (Machinery wins, obv.)
- Tech usefulness. (Maybe going for Gunpowder is risky, yes.)


I guess overall Maces are good enough

Anyways, I sure hope we won't need to tech Construction... Teching Engineering isn't so glam either...

 

[Duckweed]

My tests finally justified Pantheon:
1) Pata has no better building than Pantheon when the pop is growing. (the weakest link of building OU is not Pata, but other cities. So don't need to rush Libra+Univer here)
2) Without Pacifism, +50% GPP from Pantheon will accelerate every GP in Delhi a great deal so the gain would be not bad.
3) With Colossus, Astro will probably be postponed so as Scientific Method, which leaves Pantheon a relatively long time to perform.

This should not be an issue worth of discussion for now. We have spent many posts to analyze whether Part is worth of 240 raw hammers when it can be completed ~100BC. I thought it is worthy with ~50 turns of usage and kossin was on the fence. With ~15 turns of delay, it's no doubt worthless. Moreover, with our new plan of prioritizing war preparation, Pat should also devote to units. There are more reasons, but I will end with the last one, it need 4~5 high overflow whips to get enough hammers and the high whipping angers will greatly cripple the city.

 

[dingding]

Played and uploaded.

Spoiler :

Modifications on trades are always nice:

Spoiler :

Some lucky auto spread (more later!):


Justine grabs a Bar city at the turn Toku DoW him.


My bad. At the only tile where can pop a Bar Galley, it happens!


Another reason to defeat Izzy:


No!


Yes!


Toku's SoD is bombarding Justine's Cap.


Last turn:
1) Pop a GS;
2) Confu auto spread to Madras
3) Izzy get Theology

I made a mistake to underestimate our beakers. GS's bulbing exceeds Education even I set the slider to 0% at the last turn before the GS. Lost a dozen of beakers.

Save updated with exactly the same food/hammer/beakers of Edu.

 

[dingding]

My plan for the next 8 turns:

Spoiler :

T163
Keep Slider = 0. GS bulb Education. Tech Machinery.

FS in Pata go 1N1E to chop
FS in Vijay cottage
FS in Hyder go 1E to chop
Galley drop FS, go back 2W, load another FS
Missionary in Madras go to Pata

Agra whip Missioary
Bangalore takes 1 cottage from Varan
Vijay take Marble
Delhi enginner=>3F1C, HG=>Univer

T164
Hindu miss go 1S2E
FS in Varan go to Cow, road and cancel
FS in Pata go 1N1E chop and cancel
Galley go 1E drop FS, go back 1W

Pata => Pantheon, 2 pops on 2x3F2C
Agra=>CH, 2H7C=>2F3C
Delhi 3F1C=>6F1C, Delhi takes Madras’ 2F3C instead of its 2F2C
Bombay 2 pops on 2x2F
Madras 2F3C=>4F

T165
FS on Cow go 1N1E road and cancel
FS in Varan go on Cow and road
FS in Pata chop
Hindu Miss go on Galley, Galley go 2E

Vijay => HE

T166
FS in Bombay go 1S1E mine
Hindu miss unload
Confu miss load on Galley
Galley go 3W1N

Pata Pantheon=>settler, 6th pop on 2F2C
Bangalore takes 2F3C from Delhi
Delhi 3F1C=>2F2C
Hyder whip Granary

T167
Convert to Confu

Confu miss spread Confu to Lahore
Galley start to go to the barbarian island
FS on Cow go 1N1E to road
Hindu miss go to Delhi

Lahore whip Granary
Bangalore whip Granary, 2 pops on 2 clams
Bombay whip Forge
Delhi whip Univer, 1F3H1C=>2F3C
Madras gets 2F3C from Delhi
Hyder => LH
Varan whip Library

T168
Slider => 100%

FS in Vijay go 3S and farm

Bombay => MoM
Varan => Univer
Lahore, Bangalore, Hyder => LH
Vijay 2F3C=>2F1C
Pata whip settler

T169
FS in Madras go 1N3E
FS in Bombay go mining
Settler go to the silver

Madras whip LH
Calcutta => Library
Vijay 2F1C=> horse
Bombay 3th pop on 3H, 4th pop on 1F2H
Lahore whip LH
Delhi takes 2F3C from Madras

T170
Lahore => CH
Madras => Forge, 4F=>3F3C
FS in Pata go 1N1W to chop
FS in Delhi go 1E to road
Hindu miss spread Hindu to Delhi
FS in Hyder mine
FS in Bombay go 2N2E to road and cancel

In this plan the HG will be finished a bit late (after AD) to catch the new city. Advantage is Delhi's growth will be better. Another issue is I save 1000g before Univer, that would increase the risk of being demanded.

 

[kossin]

Well done!

I guess the SW wb will go to 3clams now. It's not like Optics is due anytime soon anyway.

I'll look at the new plan a later.

We should be wary of AP so that we don't end up with a Holy War on our hands (It wouldn't be that bad in a way but it's safer without one).

We probably should take advantage of Pleased Saladin to beg something.

 

[kossin]

Some impressions:

Bombay can be farmed a bit more so it is allowed to grow (can whip Library and University later as a result).

Parthenon is worth 10 GPP/turn in Delhi pre-specialists. Considering that we're closing in on our successive Golden Ages... it's quite a small boost - especially when you consider that SM is right around the corner (I'm guessing 75 turns MAX, more likely 50~60 with the late completion date). Moreover as Duckweed said, I'd rather whip units than Parthenon here. Finally, wait until Patali's border pops to chop the trees.

Vijay could 1-whip Barracks into HE. It is already near to working all its hammer tiles. Granted this will be a great whipping site so delayed HE doesn't change much really.

I would consider working the farm in Delhi instead of the mine and compensating production with a chop.

0% slider for so long is a bit risky but it's worth a few hundred beakers. Fine with me.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

0% slider for so long is a bit risky but it's worth a few hundred beakers. Fine with me.

I take it we would refuse a demand for gold, then, right ?

EDIT : ok. I looked into the timing and I have no complaints.

I'll look at the plan right now


EDIT 2, after reading the plan :
- Is it worth whipping 3 pop off Pali to settle the silver ? (That's the southern silver you're aiming, right ?) Maybe whipping the Library and University faster in Pataliputra is better than settling this city... Do we still want to hire specialists in Pali ?
Plus, I'm not a fan of the spot. I'd rather wait until the forests are cleared around Delhi and then settle a better spot. But... I'll comply with your way.

- Vijay and Bombay have a hard time getting enough food. Maybe we should finish the farm 2S1W of Vijay before the cottage 1NW of the city. That cottage is only relevant when Varanasi has 7 total pop.

- Are you sending the galley to the barb island with only a missionary loaded on it ? I'm sure I'm missing something, here...

 

[Bugg123]

Will look at plan later.

 

[Duckweed]

Good luck on the free religion spread.

My bad. At the only tile where can pop a Bar Galley, it happens!

How did you know? IMO 99% it was the old one from the sugar island. Why did you insist on sending the WB that way?

I made a mistake to underestimate our beakers. GS's bulbing exceeds Education even I set the slider to 0% at the last turn before the GS. Lost a dozen of beakers.

Not surprise.

I'm a little lazy today. So I just say that I agree with all kossin pointed out and I guess there are more. You need to revise your plan a lot if you cannot convince enough teammates for the Part in Pat. My suggestion is that it's better to propose debating points and call for a vote before writing a plan since this will save your time.

 

[kossin]

I take it we would refuse a demand for gold, then, right ?

EDIT : ok. I looked into the timing and I have no complaints.

I'll look at the plan right now


EDIT 2, after reading the plan :
- Is it worth whipping 3 pop off Pali to settle the silver ? (That's the southern silver you're aiming, right ?) Maybe whipping the Library and University faster in Pataliputra is better than settling this city... Do we still want to hire specialists in Pali ?
Plus, I'm not a fan of the spot. I'd rather wait until the forests are cleared around Delhi and then settle a better spot. But... I'll comply with your way.

- Vijay and Bombay have a hard time getting enough food. Maybe we should finish the farm 2S1W of Vijay before the cottage 1NW of the city. That cottage is only relevant when Varanasi has 7 total pop.

- Are you sending the galley to the barb island with only a missionary loaded on it ? I'm sure I'm missing something, here...

Correct.. refuse gold demands. With our military plans, 1 refused demands won't cost us UN win.

I'd also much prefer chopping those forest to Delhi like I said... work more food and chop in HG a bit. With GLH, all coastal cities on our
landmass will be a positive... we've currently got >>0<< internal trade routes so we can cash in on the opportunities. We should find a way to chop those forests that will be sent to the new city prior to its settling.

FW micro: yea, I neglected to mention it but that cottage by Vijay is definitely not a priority while some more food would be a boon while gearing up for war.

Missionary will unload on Sal's continent and spread to one of the 2 cities (presumably the lagging one).

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I'd also much prefer chopping those forest to Delhi like I said... work more food and chop in HG a bit. With GLH, all coastal cities on our
landmass will be a positive... we've currently got >>0<< internal trade routes so we can cash in on the opportunities. We should find a way to chop those forests that will be sent to the new city prior to its settling.

I'm not sure how to understand your preference, Kossin
Settling the southern silver only takes 1 forest from Delhi... I guess it is acceptable. However, it's one of the 2 worse spots remaining on the island...

The new city would be beneficial to us, economically, right. My point is this :
A Library+University in Pataliputra is also beneficial to us. We can run a size 10 Pataliputra... The opportunity cost of settling the silver is that we keep Pali at size 3 for a longer time, with less infra.

--> I don't think that in terms of beakers settling > whipping infra, right now.
--> The main argument for settling the city would not be commerce, but rather getting another source of silver right now. In that light, maybe whipping a Fast Worker in Pali would be equal to a settler, if not better. I was thinking yesterday that we wouldn't need any other FW, but maybe we do ?

--> My (blind) preference : infrastructure in Pataliputra, grow it and get it in that Top5 of world cities !



@ Tech path :
What comes after Machinery ?
I'd like Compass + Optics, is that the way ?
Compass brings Harbours. Optics bring Caravels + Whales. Both are of great benefit.

Considering the military build-up, Philosophy would also make sense : we have Universities to build, so maybe we don't need techs with infra (Compass) so much. A new civic, on the other hand, may be worth it... I could see us teching Philosophy now...
It also opens Nationalism that we will want before or after Astronomy, but probably after Optics (Caravels !!).

 

[dingding]

How did you know? IMO 99% it was the old one from the sugar island. Why did you insist on sending the WB that way?

There was another Bar galley around Izzy's city. I thought it was the one from the sugar site and I avoided it from taking the south path. Who knows how many darn gallery there are.

My suggestion is that it's better to propose debating points and call for a vote before writing a plan since this will save your time.

There are not many points worth discussing about strategy.

 

[dingding]

I'll revise the plan today with:

1) Drop Pantheon in Pata, whipped Barrack (overflow to Trieme). (Pantheon brings +10GPP in Delhi, that's roughly an extra spe only. I prefer turn an Engineer in Delhi instead and let Pata popping units. Before Machinery, building Trieme will be a good choice. We need 2 triemes to block Zara's capital anyway).

2) Drop Settler in Pata. (The silver site is not valuable considering its extra maintenance. Considering 3 more cities we will capture from Zara, the cost of maintenance would be even higher. One silver and one whale can be obtained without it, the other silver is not needed. We have a bunch of resources to trade already. The settler to settler on Zara's east can be done in the following set.)

3) As there is no need to postpone HG, I'll try to make some chopping in Delhi to accelerate it.

4) As said, will try to accelerate the pop growth in Delhi to turn an Engineer asap. (Delhi is not the main source of units in my tests. Vijay and Pata will handle 80% of our army.)

5) Some modifications in Vijay. Prioticize production/food here.(Bombay however, will prioticize MoM of production is prior to food.)

 

[kossin]

1) What do you mean by 'block Zara's capital'? From Izzy galleys? Growing Delhi further will probably be better than running an Engineer. Once it reaches ~size 16 we can run a bunch of specialists under Pacifism and Golden Ages. My preference from now on is: save GE, bulb big tech to get it faster, save for GA/victory. Settling for ~100 turns is worth it for a GE (400~500 hammers, 1000~1500 beakers) and maybe a GS (will be worth 30+ bpt after Oxford)

2) Agree

3) Yup

4) See 1). Accelerating pop and then slowing it down meh. What will Delhi be doing instead of military? It needs a Market and... failure gold on Wonders? Oxford is still well away. IMO it's fine to let Pata/Vijay handle the brunt of the buildup but we also want to DoW as soon as possible. The earlier those cities are ours, the better and more benefit.

5) I'd still like to get some more food going in Bombay. The 3H stone really isn't that fantastic but it is contributing yes.

Other things: I just noticed the 1-tile island S of Zara. Maybe something is there or it's just a 1-tile crap island.

We don't need to finish the road on the deer now. Our cities are healthy enough and we won't need the extra health for a long time. Plus we're getting +1 from HG soon anyway.

Re-focus EP on Zara.

Tech path: Compass>Optics is not a priority. If we can't trade for Construction then obviously that will be the next tech. As Taoism is still not founded, there's something to be said of Philosophy.. we could catch another Monastery in Delhi.
Finally we need to grab Music once an AI starts on the path (after one knows Aesthetics).
Anyway, Nationalism should come before Compass as we need to get started on Taj Mahal to start triggering those Golden Ages.

 

[dingding]

Plan revised:
1) Massif modifications on FS moves
2) Pantheon dropped. Start building Barrack+Units.

Spoiler :

T163
Keep Slider = 0. GS bulb Education. Tech Machinery.

FS on Deer go 3N
FS in Vijay go 1W of Bombay and farm
FS in Pata go 1N1E to chop
FS in Hyder go 1E to chop
Galley go 1E drop FS, go back 2W, load another FS
Missionary in Madras go to Pata

Agra whip Missioary
Bangalore takes 1 cottage from Varan
Vijay take Marble
Delhi enginner=>6F1C, HG=>Univer
Bombay 3H=>2F

T164
Hindu miss go 1S2E
FS in Varan go to Cow, road and cancel
FS in Pata go 1N1E chop and cancel
FS in Madras go 3N of Delhi and chop
Galley go 2E drop FS, go back 1W

Pata => Axeman, 2 pops on 2x3F2C
Vijay whip Barrack
Bangalore take Marble
Agra=>CH, 2H7C=>2F3C
Delhi 3F1C=>6F1C, Delhi takes Madras&#8217; 2F3C instead of its 2F2C
Bombay 2 pops on 2x2F
Madras 2F3C=>4F
Vijay whip Barrack

T165
FS on Cow go 2N2E farm
FS in Varan go on Cow and road
FS in Pata chop
Galley go 1W, Hindu Miss go on Galley, Galley go 2E

Vijay => HE

T166
Hindu miss unload
Confu miss load on Galley
Galley go 3W1N
FS on Cow go 1N1E road and cancel
FS in Bombay go 1S1W, road and cancel

Madras takes 2F3C from Delhi
Delhi 3F1C=>2F2C
Hyder whip Granary
Vijay take Marble

T167
Convert to Confu

Confu miss spread Confu to Lahore
Galley start to go to the barbarian island
Hindu miss go to Delhi
FS 1W of Bombay go 2N2E road and cancel
2FS in Bombay go on mine and mine
FS in Pata go 1N1E to chop

Lahore whip Granary
Bangalore whip Granary, 2 pops on 2 clams
Bombay whip Forge
Delhi whip Univer
Hyder => LH
Varan whip Library

T168
Slider => 100%

FS in Varan go on Cow and road
FS in Bombay go 1E to chop


Bombay => MoM
Varan => Univer
Lahore, Bangalore, Hyder => LH
Calcutta whip forge

T169
FS in Madras go 1N3E
FS in Bombay go mining
FS on Cow go 1N1E road

Madras whip LH
Calcutta => Library
Lahore whip LH
Delhi takes 2F3C from Madras with 1F3H1C
Pata Axeman=>Barrack

T170
FS in Hyder mine
2FS in Bombay go 2E to farm
FS 3N of Delhi go 1W to chop
FS 1S2W of Bombay go 2N1W to farm

Pata whip Barrack
Lahore => CH
Madras => Forge, 4F=>3F3C

PS.
1) Machinery in 1 turn.
2) HE in 3 turns
3) HG in 3 turns
4) the first Massman in 1 turn in Pata

After this set, I'll let Delhi grow to a decent size and improve tiles accordingly. Units spamming will depend on Pata and Vijay where I started to producing units.

 

[Duckweed]

There was another Bar galley around Izzy's city. I thought it was the one from the sugar site and I avoided it from taking the south path. Who knows how many darn gallery there are.

You saw the barbarian galley 6 turns ago, the only way it goes after pillage is back north and out of AI culture border, therefore that galley is definitely the old one.

There are not many points worth discussing about strategy.

Something like this.

Before I can post the plan, there are some questions in need of your answers for the next set.
1. Location of 4th city? my vote -- 1SW of pig
2. Do you want the pig or cow in the 4th city to be improved in 2 turns immediately or faster mids? In my test, I can only send 1 worker to Delhi after stone connected. mids can be done in 1325 AD with 4 chops. my vote -- Improvement
3. Do you want to delay the chariot until 2nd GP to whip it and get overflow to mids? my vote -- yes.
4. What's the build in Delhi after chariot before stone connected? my vote -- lib.
5. What's the build in Bombay after settler? my vote -- worker.
6. Do you want to gamble the lockout of HE at 50% odd with a warrior? my vote -- yes.

I already expressed my opinion on the Part issue and told you that kossin tended to be the same, so the build in Pat is already a debating issue. So do the builds in other cities.

@your plan

Some different thoughts

T163 -- I'm so confused, what on earth does the FW in the galley come from? I thought it's the one from gold city, but it's not since you mentioned another one.

T164 -- I prefer to start and whip a lib and then Univ in Pat. We have time to produce units.

T166 -- I'd use the Confu missionary for the crab city since it needs more infras.

T167 -- I'd use the Hindu missionary on other city than Del such as Var and whip new Hindu missionaries from there since I don't like Delhi to produce even a single missionary for now.

T168 -- I prefer Cal and Bombay start Barrack and skip lib and MoM since the units from these 2 cities are close to be loaded to Galleys. Also I prefer MoM in Delhi to use the GP points of MoM. The 6 cities for producing Universities in my mind are Delhi, Pat, Var, Banglore, Madras, and Hyde.

 

[Bugg123]

T163 -- I'm so confused, what on earth does the FW in the galley come from? I thought it's the one from gold city, but it's not since you mentioned another one.

T164 -- I prefer to start and whip a lib and then Univ in Pat. We have time to produce units.

T166 -- I'd use the Confu missionary for the crab city since it needs more infras.

T167 -- I'd use the Hindu missionary on other city than Del such as Var and whip new Hindu missionaries from there since I don't like Delhi to produce even a single missionary for now.

T168 -- I prefer Cal and Bombay start Barrack and skip lib and MoM since the units from these 2 cities are close to be loaded to Galleys. Also I prefer MoM in Delhi to use the GP points of MoM. The 6 cities for producing Universities in my mind are Delhi, Pat, Var, Banglore, Madras, and Hyde.

My thoughts on these points first:
T163: It's a second worker that helped out on the roading, that's now moving back (original worker comes next turn).
T164: I like this
T166: Confu missionary is allready going to crab city as per the plan (Lahore)
T167: Var could work, Delhi not ideal if MoM goes there (which I thought kinda was resolved in last turnset to be built in Bombay, but..)
T168: I think your point for Cal+Bombay is good. Using Hyde and Banglore for Uni is something I haven't tried yet (will get to that), but if that works out with, say, Mom->OU in Delhi, it seems fair.

Which brings me to: We haven't really discussed where Lib+Uni goes and when we want to complete to start OU? I was kinda running with Bombay+Pata+Varan+Delhi+Calcutta+Agra/Madras (by about 100AD, I think) but was failing to produce the needed missionaries+army, so... Duckweed's sites are interesting, but I can't really comment on them more before testing dates (or getting dates).

@dingding:
Workermoves and such looks good with your plan (although the plan has a few double-entries, not that it matters ), but needs changes if duckweeds suggestions for city builds are to be worked in.

My only "issue" I guess is saving up gold for that long. If you all feel it's worth it (when it comes to declining demands for gold vs diplo), I don't have a problem with it. Do we gain "hundreds" of beakers waiting vs binary at this point?

 

[kossin]

Haven't looked at the plan too much (read but not tried).
Axes? Could work with plenty of Catapults but we're probably better off with less Catapults more maces (more power... easier to vassal).

What Duckweed posted seems good but I question MoM in Delhi... I did a quick play test and we're scrambling for hammers in Delhi (although we can chop every forest there I guess). But then again there's no other good candidate either.

In other news... call me crazy but I've been working on a new test game that tries to be even more accurate so that the warring sets can be tested more accurately.